mrdot
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Mr. DOT
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Post by mrdot on Oct 19, 2012 9:59:35 GMT -8
:)the original design for QPR was rapidly thrown together adapted from the viking class ferry, when this service to the north was very quickly put together! It was similar to the original tsawwassen - sidney beginnings when wacy bennett rushed this thru adapting the just completed coho design of mr spaulding! the QPR design had it's roots with Knud Hansen, and was modified locally! those were the days when they charged ahead with new ideas with reckless abandon! mrdot.
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Post by WettCoast on Oct 19, 2012 20:52:11 GMT -8
I'm not sure as to why there is a need for AMHS/BC Ferries sharing one terminal, was this done in Rupert before the current terminal was built? I doubt that, given the look at the dock for AMHS, it looks to be quite old, and does not match the entire design overall of the BC Ferries one upshore. Up until 1980, BC Ferries used the Alaska Ferries dock at Prince Rupert. (so that's from 1966-1980, where the 2 systems shared 1 dock). - BC Ferries finally built their own dock in 1980. ===================== This so-called "European configuration" labelling is a bit odd. The Queen of Prince Rupert was largely based on European ferries in such that she had a visor and crew accomodations. I can't recall if she was ever used as a replacement vessel on any southern routes. The "European configuration" is referring to the berth/ramp system for the Adventure/Expedition, which is unique to the BC Ferries fleet, different from the norm at WSF and AMHS, and is incompatible with any other BC Ferries docks. Mr. Horn has this correct on both counts. What I mean by 'inter-operability' between BCF & AMHS in Prince Rupert is that from 1980 t0 2009 (almost 30 years) the two companies have been able to rely on the others' terminal if any maintenance or breakdown put their own terminal out of commission. In 2008/9 both companies took advantage of this arrangement. When the City of Prince Rupert, owners of the AMHS terminal, closed that terminal down for extensive maintenance for a lengthy period (one or two months), AMHS was able to continue uninterrupted service to Prince Rupert by using the BCF terminal. Shortly after that the shoe was on the other foot while BCF had their terminal down during conversion to the present arrangement. Today that inter-operability is gone. The same is true at Port Hardy. If the dock there was out of action they would not be able to simply move the southern terminal temporarily to Port McNeill, because the ships and dock are incompatible. The result could well be a lengthy curtailment of service.
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 27, 2012 14:11:53 GMT -8
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Post by lmtengs on Oct 27, 2012 14:32:32 GMT -8
Why move to an island if time is of the essence to you? There's a reason that some people choose to live on the mainland. I'm pretty sure these people moved to Bowen knowing they had to take a ferry to get there.
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Ferryman
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Post by Ferryman on Oct 27, 2012 18:33:00 GMT -8
I would completely disagree with the ignorant statements above.
While it's pretty obvious that there's currently no other decent replacement to cover for the Queen of Capilano while she goes for refit, the arguement about, "They knew what they were getting into when moving to an Island" is completely moot, especially in this situation. It's quite obvious that Bowen Island is very much a suburb of Vancouver as is Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Maple Ridge, etc. People need to remember that the Ferry service we have in BC is meant to be a highway link, not a cruise line, just the same as the Port Mann Bridge, Golden Ears Bridge, Sea to Sky Highway, etc. I've always felt that Bowen needs increased service with a larger vessel like the Island Sky primarily due to the commuter overloads that occur on a daily basis. The Capilano handles the traffic OK for the most part. But it's that much harder when the smaller Bowen Queen comes to the run.
On the other hand, BC Ferries has offered some incentive for Bowen Islanders to leave their vehicle in Horseshoe Bay at a discounted rate, while the Bowen Queen is on the run. Yes, it's a band-aid solution, but that's all that can be done at the moment until a potentially larger replacement vessel/refit replacement comes online, likely not for another 10 years or so. Yes, I also understand the inconvenience of leaving your vehicle in Horseshoe Bay, especially if that's your only vehicle. But at least you have a better chance of making your appointments by walking on to the Ferry if you're able to car pool, take a bus, taxi, or have a friend give you a ride to Snug Cove.
Good on Bowen Islanders for trying to State a point. However, they need to take it up another step or two and let the BC and Federal Government know, especially with Election season fast approaching.
If it were up to me, I'd have the Chilliwack deployed to Route 7 to relieve the Island Sky for it to be able to come to Horseshoe Bay for the winter
Bowen Queen goes to Swartz Bay next I believe to cover for the Queen of Cumberland for a month, followed by relieving the Skeena Queen in the spring for around two months. Prepare for more upset Islanders who are hindered by the Bowen Queens smaller capacity.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 27, 2012 19:13:53 GMT -8
I would completely disagree with the ignorant statements above. While it's pretty obvious that there's currently no other decent replacement to cover for the Queen of Capilano while she goes for refit, the arguement about, "They knew what they were getting into when moving to an Island" is completely moot, especially in this situation. It's quite obvious that Bowen Island is very much a suburb of Vancouver as is Abbotsford, Chilliwack, Maple Ridge, etc. People need to remember that the Ferry service we have in BC is meant to be a highway link, not a cruise line, just the same as the Port Mann Bridge, Golden Ears Bridge, Sea to Sky Highway, etc. I've always felt that Bowen needs increased service with a larger vessel like the Island Sky primarily due to the commuter overloads that occur on a daily basis. The Capilano handles the traffic OK for the most part. But it's that much harder when the smaller Bowen Queen comes to the run. On the other hand, BC Ferries has offered some incentive for Bowen Islanders to leave their vehicle in Horseshoe Bay at a discounted rate, while the Bowen Queen is on the run. Yes, it's a band-aid solution, but that's all that can be done at the moment until a potentially larger replacement vessel/refit replacement comes online, likely not for another 10 years or so. Yes, I also understand the inconvenience of leaving your vehicle in Horseshoe Bay, especially if that's your only vehicle. But at least you have a better chance of making your appointments by walking on to the Ferry if you're able to car pool, take a bus, taxi, or have a friend give you a ride to Snug Cove. Good on Bowen Islanders for trying to State a point. However, they need to take it up another step or two and let the BC and Federal Government know, especially with Election season fast approaching. If it were up to me, I'd have the Chilliwack deployed to Route 7 to relieve the Island Sky for it to be able to come to Horseshoe Bay for the winter Bowen Queen goes to Swartz Bay next I believe to cover for the Queen of Cumberland for a month, followed by relieving the Skeena Queen in the spring for around two months. Prepare for more upset Islanders who are hindered by the Bowen Queens smaller capacity. Very well put. People in ferry dependent communities recognize that there are going to be added expenses and inconvenience in their transportation, and, within reason, they accept that. They're not stupid. I would point out that Luke, some time ago, noted how people in Maple Ridge have strong negative opinions on their transit service. Maybe people in backwaters like Maple Ridge should pipe down, and, in view of how expensive it is to service communities outside urban centres with transit, just be thankful for whatever level of service they have... without complaint. I don't subscribe to that view, but it certainly is a logical extension of the shut up-if-you-live-on-an-island standard lecture. Following the Bowen forum postings, the invoice notion is somewhat tongue in cheek, and meant to underscore a point. The Bowen Queen service to Bowen has been something of a gong show, with mechanical problems, late sailings, cancelled sailings, and operational problems with loading. While the complaining may indeed have a whiff of entitlement about it, there is certainly some justification when people are missing medical appointments, job interviews, or whatever. The posted schedule, and expected service levels, should have some basis in reality.
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Post by lmtengs on Oct 27, 2012 21:47:59 GMT -8
Following the Bowen forum postings, the invoice notion is somewhat tongue in cheek, and meant to underscore a point. The Bowen Queen service to Bowen has been something of a gong show, with mechanical problems, late sailings, cancelled sailings, and operational problems with loading. While the complaining may indeed have a whiff of entitlement about it, there is certainly some justification when people are missing medical appointments, job interviews, or whatever. The posted schedule, and expected service levels, should have some basis in reality. I still stick to my point, yet I do agree that BC Ferries should try harder to stick to their posted schedules. Prior to moving to an island though, a potential islander should take in to consideration that the usual ferry WILL get taken out of service and be replaced by another, often inferior, vessel. Another point is that BC Ferries gives ample notice to a vessel being refitted, so existing islanders should make a point to leave more time to get to appointments, or schedule less appointments for during the period that the ferry service is lesser. Ferries breaking down is another fact of life for an islander, one that they should also consider prior to moving to an island. If you move to an island, then complain when facts of island life happen, then I have zero sympathy for you.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 29, 2012 20:15:55 GMT -8
I still stick to my point, yet I do agree that BC Ferries should try harder to stick to their posted schedules. Prior to moving to an island though, a potential islander should take in to consideration that the usual ferry WILL get taken out of service and be replaced by another, often inferior, vessel. Another point is that BC Ferries gives ample notice to a vessel being refitted, so existing islanders should make a point to leave more time to get to appointments, or schedule less appointments for during the period that the ferry service is lesser. Ferries breaking down is another fact of life for an islander, one that they should also consider prior to moving to an island. If you move to an island, then complain when facts of island life happen, then I have zero sympathy for you. If you've been following this story on the Bowen forum or in the Undercurrent, you'll know that Bowen Islanders are not just gratuitously complaining about the ' Capilano being out for refit. The Bowen Queen has been the refit boat for years. People accept that, for the most part, and they know that there will be overloads. For whatever reason, this time has been much worse, with breakdowns, more overloads, and late or cancelled sailings due to slow loading. Some have claimed that it is partly due to BC Ferries not consulting beforehand with an island developer who has been sending a lot of trucks over and back at peak times. There was an amusing post on the Bowen forum where the author of the 'invoice' answered the inevitable "You live on an island, so stop complaining" routine. She said, "Yes, we know we live on an island, yes we know it's a rural community, yes, we know there is no twenty minute commute..." These people are not being unrealistic. They know that BC Ferries is not going to pay them for lost time. Their invoice is a way to put a tangible note to the troubles experienced with the Bowen Queen being on the run, and to make a more substantial argument than just a general complaint. The furor seems to have died down lately, so either everyone is getting resigned to things as they are, or BC Ferries is getting their act together, and keeping to a schedule with more regularity. I went to a meeting here on Hornby last fall regarding the two week shutdown of service for the dock rebuilding, and I can assure you I did not hear any whiny islanders griping that BC Ferries wasn't providing them with floatplane service to make up for the loss of connection. People were concerned about emergency services, the availability of hydro crews in the event of power outages, and other aspects that were entirely reasonable for a community for whom ferry service is a lifeline, and not a hobby.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 5, 2012 22:35:22 GMT -8
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 5, 2012 23:28:42 GMT -8
www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/in-ferry-debate-bc-government-sails-too-cautiously-into-sea-of-public-anger/article4948355/This writer clearly doesn't have a clue of how the Ferry system works, or how it was even put together, and this statement has seriously boiled my blood. I can't stress this fact enough that the Ferries ARE an extension to the highways of British Columbia. This Province happens to have a huge Coastline along with hundreds of islands, where actually only a handful of said Islands have people living on them. People who aren't aware of the history of the Ferries need to realize that when first formed, BC Ferries was to take over or compete with existing services to Vancouver Island which were becoming an unreliable service largely due to job action at the time. The idea was to provide a reliable service at a fair price for the citizens of our Province to grow our Local economy. Also, what the writer from the Globe and Mail doesn't realize, is that our BC Government actually started or took over alot of the routes to small Island communities such as Quadra, Cortes, Denman, Hornby, etc etc before BC Ferries was in the picture for those communities. At the time, they were called saltwater branch of the B.C. Ministry of Transportation and Highways. It wasn't until 1985 that the salt water branch of the B.C. Ministry of Transportation became absorbed into the BC Ferries system. The Subsidy provided to the Ferries is supposed to be there to support the operation of the smaller runs to the Island communities. Some of it is likely even Federal subsidy, which is why we see service to places like Penelakut Island at 11:00 at night, which is completely First Nations land. Who's to say if runs are cancelled, the Government could take away some of the subsidies since no Ferries are actually running? What happens to the "savings"? The ships still need maintenance, crews still need to be paid for. But what is the point of running a Ferry service, if it's not going to properly serve the community is supposed to serve. The Government is clearly trying to cut more of its ties to the Ferries which was the plan all along.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 6, 2012 10:00:56 GMT -8
Gary Mason's article is appalling for it's callous ignorance. He's pretty much flat out declaring that we should let numerous small communities die because they have no value, and people are just living there out of self indulgent lifestyle choices. Unlike every community on the mainland, of course.
I await his next article where he argues for the elimination of every 'money losing' bus route.
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Nov 6, 2012 11:10:57 GMT -8
:)while I share the ferryman's summary of how the ferry system works, I think things are substantally different than they were in those early years of wac Bennet's rapid expansion of our gulf islands ferry service, and those years of unbridled expansion are no longer sustainable by any gov't. I think my brother is rite and I had better use my gold card perk quick as all those items are no longer afordable in this new economy, where everything is being 'clawed back' :'(mrdot.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 6, 2012 13:19:05 GMT -8
:)while I share the ferryman's summary of how the ferry system works, I think things are substantally different than they were in those early years of wac Bennet's rapid expansion of our gulf islands ferry service, and those years of unbridled expansion are no longer sustainable by any gov't. I think my brother is rite and I had better use my gold card perk quick as all those items are no longer afordable in this new economy, where everything is being 'clawed back' :'(mrdot. If you're saying that current service and fare levels to our coastal islands are unsustainable, I completely disagree, although it's obvious that the current government has chosen that 'reality'. There is nothing extravagant about our ferry service, and Bennett did nothing revolutionary in starting it as a government run enterprise. Washington State Ferries are all cheaper than ours, and many countries in Europe, from Norway to Croatia, offer subsidized ferry service with prices comparable to ours- in some cases cheaper, or even free, in the case of Sweden. Scotland has chosen to lower fares on a number of routes, with the result being a considerable upswing in traffic. We've got some choices to make with our ferry service here in BC, and the result may well be some service cuts, which I don't necessarily disagree with, if they make sense. However, those choices shouldn't be based on the political assumption that our system is basically unsustainable, since so many other countries seem to be able to manage their ferry affairs as necessary transportation infrastructure, rather than looking at things on a profit and loss basis, as Mr Mason did in his article.
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Nov 6, 2012 14:38:12 GMT -8
:)the truth of cost sustainability of our ferry system is somewhere in between these different viewpoints, if there is political will to provide the subsidies that will be needed for a true gov't model, and not a bastardized free-enterprize joke! it is the same as looking at our medicare model as tommy douglas envisioned it, and the present day were some private-combination with our old style plan is the only way forward, in my view, and we will have to come to terms with the 'jimmy pattison pavilion! :'(mrdot.
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Post by Mike C on Nov 6, 2012 15:21:58 GMT -8
Neil, I'm glad you keep bringing up the comparison to public transit. I have personally always viewed that our ferry system is not only an extension of our highway system, but also an integral part of our provincial public transit system. Perhaps not to the same degree as the WSF, many passengers rely on BCFS to get to work and school, and I feel they should be treated the same way: service adjustments where they make sense, and subsidization where it makes sense.
If anyone wants to see a real funding crisis, take a look at TransLink: no provincial subsidy with a totally unsustainable funding model from the municipalities, controlled behind closed doors by private businessmen. It's that lack of subsidy and that profit-driven model that is really screwing us. My greatest fear is the same thing happening to the ferry system; and it seems that private-sector mindset seems to have taken over. Now the community leaders are left to pick up the pieces, decrease system reliability, and cut back on services.
I am a strong believer that cuts should take place where they make sense, to a certain extent obviously, but also that integration, connections and fare structures are drivers behind ridership.
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Ferryman
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 9, 2012 14:37:02 GMT -8
Quite the kick in the teeth for West Vancouver, and potentially any other municipalities that have a BC Ferry terminal.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 22, 2012 9:13:41 GMT -8
Another report following up on what Chris posted above... BC Ferries tax rebate could hit Delta next[/b] www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/11/20/bc-ferry-tax-delta.htmlThis appears to me to be a 'downloading' of the Province's obligations onto the shoulders of taxpayers in the municipalities where terminals are located. Prior to the 2003 'privatisation', did BCFC pay municipal taxes on their terminals, and is so, how much? Does anyone know?
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Post by Mike C on Nov 22, 2012 12:33:33 GMT -8
Another report following up on what Chris posted above... BC Ferries tax rebate could hit Delta next[/b] www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/11/20/bc-ferry-tax-delta.htmlThis appears to me to be a 'downloading' of the Province's obligations onto the shoulders of taxpayers in the municipalities where terminals are located. Prior to the 2003 'privatisation', did BCFC pay municipal taxes on their terminals, and is so, how much? Does anyone know? [/quote] The Province did pay property taxes under the name BC Ferries, just as the Federal Government pays property taxes in Richmond for the airport. I'm not sure how much, but I believe they are the single largest taxpayer in the Corporation of Delta. This is of concern to me, as a Delta resident, and this would be quite a dramatic increase in our property taxes, which have remained relatively conservative over the past decade. Our municipality has not incurred any debt over the course of the financial cascade, however if BC Ferries does not pay their fair share, that could change.
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Nov 22, 2012 19:52:32 GMT -8
:)retirement in Delta, after a 30 year planning career, and an earlier ferry career, has been relatively good economically, but recent 'clawbacks' in pension benifits, and the thought of so called 'private' companies being taken off our tax rolls, has to be of concern, I am preparing for the end of the seniors ferry perk, as I don't think gov't, can afford this anymore, but what next? I can only hope my 'end time' will be more dignified than our first BC ferry has been given! mrdot.
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Nov 23, 2012 20:06:40 GMT -8
:)just arrived back home and the local delta optimist was another rude headline informing us how much the municipality will get screwed if the private ferry cost cutting hits our berg, my first reaction after heartburn, is bugger them if they need any fire truck, police service, or any other service the rest of us have to pay out of our retirement chit or regular working stiff, as I allready said I am resigned to loosing this seniors perk, allong with other claw-backs which jenny craig poster boy rich coleman and other gov't heavy weights will not have to do any belt-tightening! :'(mrdot.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 23, 2012 22:01:55 GMT -8
:)just arrived back home and the local delta optimist was another rude headline informing us how much the municipality will get screwed if the private ferry cost cutting hits our berg, my first reaction after heartburn, is bugger them if they need any fire truck, police service, or any other service the rest of us have to pay out of our retirement chit or regular working stiff, as I allready said I am resigned to loosing this seniors perk, allong with other claw-backs which jenny craig poster boy rich coleman and other gov't heavy weights will not have to do any belt-tightening! :'(mrdot. I don't blame BC Ferries in the slightest for what they're doing with this tax thing. They have been told by the provincial government to cut costs to the bone... and one way to do it is to seek revisions to their assessments for land that is locked into long term use as ferry terminals because of leases, without value as any kind of saleable property. This is just another example of the Liberals' insane policy of divorcing BC Ferries' operations from the overall transportation infrastructure of the province. Under the current construct, what is good for BC Ferries is frequently terrible for some other level of government, or the needs of coastal communities, or the economy of the province in general. The damage that this ridiculous privatization scam has caused makes the fast ferries episode look like chump change in comparison. This is just the latest piece of evidence. Too bad Adrian Dix is committed to his political Misterogers impression, because this episode deserves being highlighted far more than it has been.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 26, 2012 10:12:57 GMT -8
Another report following up on what Chris posted above... BC Ferries tax rebate could hit Delta next[/b] www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/story/2012/11/20/bc-ferry-tax-delta.htmlThis appears to me to be a 'downloading' of the Province's obligations onto the shoulders of taxpayers in the municipalities where terminals are located. Prior to the 2003 'privatisation', did BCFC pay municipal taxes on their terminals, and is so, how much? Does anyone know? [/quote] Vancouver Sun columnist Craig McInnes addressed this issue in Saturday's paper. BC Ferries did not pay property taxes as such before privatization. They gave grants in lieu of taxes. The grants were much smaller than the ensuing tax assessments.
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Nov 26, 2012 17:23:37 GMT -8
:)all this matter does is hi-lite what a crock this privite ferry exploit has proved to be, and I can just hope that this isn't another claw-back of my retirement 'golden years income" not so golden!
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Post by hullnumbers on Nov 26, 2012 21:39:14 GMT -8
To start this page I found this in the TC. www.timescolonist.com/news/North+Saanich+Nanaimo+oppose+Ferries+slash+taxes+mainland+terminal/7593521/story.htmlAnd heres the article if or when the TC page is deleted. North Saanich, Nanaimo oppose B.C. Ferries' bid to slash taxes at mainland terminal By Sandra McCulloch, Times Colonist; With Files From The Canadian Press North Saanich and Nanaimo plan to oppose B.C. Ferries' bid to have property taxes on its Horseshoe Bay terminal in West Vancouver slashed to nearly nothing. The District of West Vancouver filed notice last week it is taking the arms-length board that hears appeals of property tax assessments to B.C. Supreme Court, after the board lowered the value of the Horseshoe Bay ferry terminal from $47 million to only $20. Legal counsel for Nanaimo and North Saanich will apply to the court to take part in the hearing. The two municipalities plan to share legal resources and costs on the court challenge. "Council believes that it is important that every property bear its fair share of the cost of the services that are provided by local government," said Nanaimo Mayor John Rut-tan in a statement. North Saanich Mayor Alice Finall said having the municipalities work together "should improve the possibility of a fair outcome." The West Vancouver property tax adjustment occurred in October, after B.C. Ferries asked the appeal board to take a look at the terminal's value. The board determined that the ferry terminals are deemed to be single-purpose and that B.C. Ferry Services is a money-losing operation sustained by government subsidies. If upheld, the decision means West Vancouver would have to refund more than $750,000 to B.C. Ferries for the taxation years of 2010, 2011 and 2012. Even more worrying to communities with B.C. Ferries terminals is the precedent set by the decision. This year, Nanaimo collected $660,000 in revenue from B.C. Ferries on property taxes from terminals at Departure Bay, Duke Point and the downtown terminal, which services Gabriola Island. Every $800,000 loss to the municipal budget amounts to a one per cent tax increase, Ruttan said. North Saanich was paid $395,000 in tax revenue from B.C. Ferries for the Swartz Bay property. B.C. Ferries has already launched appeals on terminals in other communities, including Swartz Bay. Those appeals are on pause until the court rules on the Horseshoe Bay decision. Ferries spokeswoman Deborah Marshall said Wednesday that it would be inappropriate to comment on the matter while it is before the courts. Such appeals on property taxes are not uncommon for B.C. Ferries. In the 2005 taxation year, B.C. Ferries succeeded in having the assessed value of terminals in the capital region reduced significantly: ? Brentwood Bay terminal was reduced from $2.78 million to $1.37 million. ? Swartz Bay terminal was slashed from $44 million to $21.7 million. ? Terminals on Saltspring Island and the Gulf Islands were also cut by more than half the original amount. In 2007, B.C. Ferry Services appealed the Swartz Bay terminal's $36.9-million assessment, but the appeal was later withdrawn. In 2010, B.C. Ferries appealed an assessment of $26.5 million of the Departure Bay terminal. That appeal was also withdrawn. Don't know if anyone read this, but I figure I share it.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 28, 2012 16:12:24 GMT -8
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