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Post by Retrovision on Dec 2, 2009 10:33:58 GMT -8
...Such is Gord's creation. And we can't forget that the Gord we know today - unlike his days as Mayor of Vancouver, etc. - is a creation of the Social Credit Party, quite a right leaning party unbefitting of the liberal brand, having been in the background of the majority of BC "Liberal" Party caucus members for atleast the first two of that party's terms and I'd guess right up until today.
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Post by Retrovision on Dec 2, 2009 12:43:22 GMT -8
Most of the Caucus members are not directly attributed to Social Credit as the party hasn't existed since 1995. If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. I should clarify, I meant having roots-in, quite different from current involvement but, as with all polititians, still very telling. A former colleague and still friend of my source on these matters, both quite respected people in their community, even very separately made quite a similar observation to mine, something along the lines of "they aren't Liberal, they're SoCred". ...I'll leave the rest for folks like Neil who certainly know a thing or two more than myself.
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Post by Retrovision on Dec 2, 2009 14:33:00 GMT -8
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck. I should clarify, I meant having roots-in, quite different from current involvement but, as with all polititians, still very telling. A former colleague and still friend of my source on these matters, both quite respected people in their community, even very separately made quite a similar observation to mine, something along the lines of "they aren't Liberal, they're SoCred". ...I'll leave the rest for folks like Neil who certainly know a thing or two more than myself.
Well the fact remains that unless he was a member and I gather he wasn't as the person who handled party memberships during the time when Social Credit was in existance from 1990 to 1995, is a long time friend of mine there wasn't any indication from her or the headquaters that he took out a membership, and he certainly was not prominent in the party during that time. If he did take out a membership, he would have certainly been noticed for doing so. In fact he took out a membership in the BC Liberals and two weeks later he started his campaign to contest the leadership that followed, defeating Gordon Gibson, Jr.
He was in fact more federal Liberal than anything, is/as was Art Phillps and his better half Carol Taylor and Gordon's long time friend May Brown. Being Liberal not Socred (or Conservative) at that time was in vogue.I think that we're agreeing here, that he wasn't Social Credit before leading the BC "Liberal" Party. The point that I'm trying to get at is that his masters on how he goes about policy making, etc., etc., now are a majority of people, no matter the ammount or lack of power they wield individually, with deep roots en masse in the old Social Credit Party, thereby making him SoCred - or atleast SoCred-acting - by proxy throughout his reign as Premier.
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Post by Retrovision on Dec 2, 2009 15:37:24 GMT -8
I was passing along what I had heard from reputable sources in response to Neil's "Gord" comment, but we digress.
Agreed, back to the ferries.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 2, 2009 19:46:14 GMT -8
Back to ferries (and stretching out on a lifejacket locker and forgetting the political stuff, just enjoying the low rumble of the ferry and the scenery, a smile on the face, covered by a big floppy hat..) Umm... it's December. Try that now and you'll freeze your keester off. May as well stay inside and discuss politics. And, Paul, why is it that you always exhort us to drop the politics and talk about ferries after you've given your own political opinions? Can't say I'm too concerned about Gordon Campbell's political lineage, but anyone who thinks you can talk about BC Ferries and keep it non-political is dreaming. Perhaps we could, if we made it 100% fan-oriented, but then I wouldn't want to be here. The options for route ten are a good example. There are concerns about what the north coast needs from its ferry service, and whether the route can play some role in re-vitalizing communities like Prince Rupert. There is the very different vision BC Ferries has of its role compared to what stakeholders see as its necessary function. There is the federal subsidy that applies strictly to the Port Hardy to Prince Rupert route, which BC Ferries is now seeking to extend. There is the money BC Ferries got to build a northern vessel, as opposed to a cruise ferry serving the south coast as well. Questions that tend naturally to have a political angle to them, like it or not. And Paul, you need to expand on your statement, "...it will take time for BC Ferries to be able to deliver far more than it can currently. It's not going to be easy, and will cause some to squeal and squeak.. " How is BC Ferries seeking to deliver "far more"? Is that like the saying, "Less is more"? And are all opinions contrary to their corporate vision a matter of "going ape", and squealing and squeaking?
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 2, 2009 21:38:16 GMT -8
While you are at it Paul, perhaps you could expand upon this statement:
"BC Ferries was neglected for a very long time"
Just what do you mean by this? Give examples of how you support this assertion, and please don't drag out yet again the fast cats. You have to have more than that to support your statement. Was this 'neglect' happening only during the NDP decade or does it date back into the 1980's?
I have heard just a few times too many statements coming from within (or people closely connected to BCFS) to the effect that service was terrible, the new vessels are like 'Cadillacs compared to the old Volkswagens', and the ferries were neglected. Is it that people start to believe untrue statements when they are repeated over and over again?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 9, 2009 7:21:20 GMT -8
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Post by gordon on Dec 10, 2009 13:43:28 GMT -8
I wonder if B.C. Ferries will use The Nor Ex for the overnight service when the new terminal is finished?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 10, 2009 15:23:14 GMT -8
New ferry terminal at Klemtu announced: For Immediate Release 2009PREM0077-000746 December 10, 2009 Office of the Premier Government of Canada B.C., CANADA INVEST IN NEW FERRY TERMINAL AT KLEMTU VANCOUVER – Premier Gordon Campbell and Stockwell Day, Minister of International Trade and Minister for the Asia Pacific Gateway today announced $25 million in joint federal/provincial funding to improve ferry access to Klemtu through the construction of a new ferry terminal. No question, that's great news for Klemtu and the Kitasoo band. I have to wonder, though... when it comes to projects like this, do the feds and the province just sort of spin a big Wheel-of-Fortune, and decide, "This band gets $25 million, this band gets nothing?" $25 million for a new ferry terminal to serve a community of 500 people, once or twice a week. A handful of cars getting on or off. Is that really the best way to meet their transportation needs? Great for that community, and, yes, it will provide jobs. I'm not condemning it, but I have to wonder how a huge single expenditure like that fits into the bigger picture of priorities for first nations and the population in general.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 10, 2009 16:07:06 GMT -8
New ferry terminal at Klemtu announced: For Immediate Release 2009PREM0077-000746 December 10, 2009 Office of the Premier Government of Canada Shouldn't this be in 'General News articles? I don't know how this relates to the Tsawwassen-Port Hardy Ferry route... If you look at BC Ferries schedules, you'll see that for most of the year, Klemtu is a part of route 10, which is what the proposed Tsawwassen extension applies to. Increased tourism opportunities at Klemtu, through this terminal, would probably be a part of marketing that route.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Dec 10, 2009 17:40:28 GMT -8
New ferry terminal at Klemtu announced: For Immediate Release 2009PREM0077-000746 December 10, 2009 Office of the Premier Government of Canada Shouldn't this be in 'General News articles? I don't know how this relates to the Tsawwassen-Port Hardy Ferry route... If I was moderating, this would stay in this thread. Klemtu might be part of the route between Tsawwassen, Port Hardy, Bella Bella, Klemtu, and Prince Rupert one day. Would be a neat trip.
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 10, 2009 18:21:23 GMT -8
No question, that's great news for Klemtu and the Kitasoo band. I have to wonder, though... when it comes to projects like this, do the feds and the province just sort of spin a big Wheel-of-Fortune, and decide, "This band gets $25 million, this band gets nothing?" Does anyone remember a small First Nations village named Hartley Bay. They are located just a very short distance off the main line. Still no ferry service, let alone a $25 million prize package. On the other hand, this is good news for Klemtu. It also means that they can operate the NorEx through the Oct to March period which likely will be popular with locals and may well be less expensive too!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 10, 2009 21:00:14 GMT -8
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Dec 11, 2009 13:58:36 GMT -8
Great for that community, and, yes, it will provide jobs. I'm not condemning it, but I have to wonder how a huge single expenditure like that fits into the bigger picture of priorities for first nations and the population in general. Maybe they want to encourage immigration to the community, once access becomes as simple as a BCFerries fare. It's just too bad Klemtu isn't on the mainland, otherwise they could be granted a large allotment of land as well and build their own highway out through the interior to improve their access to the outside. As it is, they will still only be a ferry dependent community. Or it's too bad that Hartley Bay isn't at least close enough to Klemtu that they could somehow build an island hopping connector road so that the new ferry berth could at least offer service to more than one community. Maybe when the construction is over, they could at least relocate the barge from Klemtu to Hartley Bay to give them some sort of ferry dock.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 16, 2009 9:35:06 GMT -8
Some more Prince Rupert reaction: It's good to see that the Prince Rupert Chamber & Council have the right idea about protesting. They are focusing on the service agreement and on the Minister who would be involved in changes to that service agreement. from here: www.bclocalnews.com/bc_north/thenorthernview/news/79327357.html
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Post by garyc on Dec 22, 2009 16:51:02 GMT -8
fyi.....
Nov. 18, 2009
MLA CONCERNED ABOUT FERRY SHIFT TO TSAWWASSEN
VICTORIA—North Coast MLA Gary Coons is concerned that the ‘proposed’ BC Ferries new service from Tsawwassen to Prince Rupert will have a huge impact on jobs and the economy in Prince Rupert and the entire region.
“With no business case in hand and no real plan, this seems like a shot in the dark, one that we may not be able to afford,” says Coons. “ With about 20 less sailings coming to Prince Rupert I am sure those in our community and on Haida Gwaii will feel the impact. Whether it is hotel rooms, meals, tourist activities or service providers, we will definitely feel the crunch. Just as we find out that the HST will hit tourism businesses with a 5% increase (according to the Council of Tourism Associations report) and that thousands of jobs will be lost in the province due to the HST, BC Ferries flies a trial balloon that will only add to the turmoil.”
Coons notes that there needs to a comprehensive plan with the backup numbers to ensure that those that live and work on the North Coast have confidence in the initiative and have been fully consulted. The North Coast MLA wants the ferry corporation to do an analysis of the impact that changes would have on Prince Rupert and Haida Gwaii , and the entire circle route from Prince Rupert through to Terrace, Smithers, Prince George and back down south.
“For awhile now I have been sceptical about the “Tsawwassen Plan”, says Coons. “This summer Prince Rupert lost about 20 summer jobs for students as BC Ferries changed their hiring practices and hired from down south. This hiring policy must be revisited so that kids returning home for the summer have an opportunity for employment. It also seems that those trained to work on the new Northern Expedition appeared to be employees from outside of Rupert with few locals trained for the new vessel.”
Coons is concerned that BC Ferries is planning to move the ‘point of assembly’ from Prince Rupert to Tsawwassen, which could mean the loss of as many as one hundred casual and seasonal employees and perhaps several fulltime employees.
“Prince Rupert cannot afford to lose one job out of community,” said Coons. “We must ensure BC Ferries’ initiatives and policies reflect the public good. BC Ferries needs to consult with impacted communities before reducing sailings and moving workers.” ======================= I believe that we need to continue to fight this for 3 reasons: 1) no apparent business case to disrupt a service that has been going on for decades. 2) 20 less sailings in/out of Rupert and the impact of those that depend on the traffic....from Haida Gwaii to PG and beyond 3) significant loss of jobs when we cannot afford one job loss in the community or region.
Note... 1) approx. 100 “pseudo-casual” jobs in Rupert will be lost..these are regular year-round jobs, on-call, bringing in monthly paychecks. 2) there are 79 FT jobs on the vessel and 25 FT terminal jobs…terminal will remain in Rupert. An unknown amount of the 79 will be lost ……jobs vacant through attrition or retirement will be replaced through a hiring process. 1st dibs go to ‘homestead’ port and 2nd round goes Fleet-wide – so PR workers bid against the whole fleet and will most likely lose out. Probably dozens of FT jobs lost in the next 3-5 yrs. 3) we will lose all our summer hires (approx 30)…our summer students coming home to try to get a summer job…this number varies from 20- 40 per summer. GC
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Post by lmtengs on Dec 31, 2009 12:01:14 GMT -8
So, this would then be eliminating the Port Hardy-Rupert route? That's crazy. If that's BCF's plan, then I no longer support the new route.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 31, 2009 13:36:51 GMT -8
So, this would then be eliminating the Port Hardy-Rupert route? That's crazy. If that's BCF's plan, then I no longer support the new route. Please quote whatever source had led you to this incorrect conclusion. I'd like to understand your thought process on this one....
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Post by DENelson83 on Dec 31, 2009 15:05:59 GMT -8
It'll be Tsawwassen-Port Hardy-Mid Coast-Prince Rupert.
Don't worry, my dear Hardy one. You won't be left out.
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Post by WettCoast on Dec 31, 2009 17:57:04 GMT -8
The intension is to eliminate one PR-PH round trip per 2-week period. In its place there would be one PH-TSW round trip. I do not believe that the plan is to include any mid-coast stops other than the once per 2-week stop that has been occuring for several years already at Bella Bella. I am fairly certain that the new dock at Klemtu is being built to allow the NorEx to call there when it is handling northern service during the off-season. It will not be stopping there during summer service so long as the Chilliwack continues in service.
BCFS's plan means simply that one in seven round trips on the Inside Passage route will be eliminated. That will very likely mean fewer vacationers coming up via ferry to the North Coast, not more as is suggested by certain parties. The best way to increase utilization of the NorEx (and all the rest of the fleet as well) is to put a stop the the never ending price escalations that have resulted in a doubling of fares over a six year period.
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Post by lmtengs on Dec 31, 2009 23:23:49 GMT -8
So, this would then be eliminating the Port Hardy-Rupert route? That's crazy. If that's BCF's plan, then I no longer support the new route. Please quote whatever source had led you to this incorrect conclusion. I'd like to understand your thought process on this one.... Oh, oh, oh, nevermind. I reread the above news paragraphs and realized I skipped some of the key information My bad, big oops
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 1, 2010 0:13:24 GMT -8
The intension is to eliminate one PR-PH round trip per 2-week period. In its place there would be one PH-TSW round trip. I do not believe that the plan is to include any mid-coast stops other than the once per 2-week stop that has been occuring for several years already at Bella Bella. I am fairly certain that the new dock at Klemtu is being built to allow the NorEx to call there when it is handling northern service during the off-season. It will not be stopping there during summer service so long as the Chilliwack continues in service. BCFS's plan means simply that one in seven round trips on the Inside Passage route will be eliminated. That will very likely mean fewer vacationers coming up via ferry to the North Coast, not more as is suggested by certain parties. The best way to increase utilization of the NorEx (and all the rest of the fleet as well) is to put a stop the the never ending price escalations that have resulted in a doubling of fares over a six year period. But, WCK, we know that in the Hahnian universe, fare increases do not affect ridership, so the addition of the Tsawwassen leg constitutes improvement to the northern service. Being the festive kind of guy that I am, I decided to ring out the old year by perusing the BC Ferry Commission site. I found ruling 06-06 rather interesting. It had previously occured to me that by using the Northern Expedition as a cruise ferry on the new southern leg, BC Ferries was perhaps not keeping to the intent of the expenditure they were allowed in building the NorEx, namely, to service the north. Here's part of Martin Crilly's ruling at the time of their application (bold type my emphasis): A. under section 55 of the Act BC Ferries may apply to the commissioner for a declaration as to whether the capital assets proposed to be deployed on, or the capital expenditures proposed to be incurred in connection with a designated ferry route, are reasonably required; B. on July 14, 2006 BC Ferries applied for such a declaration respecting $199.7 million in capital expenditures for a replacement vessel (#2) and $33.4 million for terminal facilities for northern routes; C. BC Ferries has stated that the vessel to be acquired, as one of three vessels required to provide the core level of northern services agreed to be supported by the province, is expected to operate primarily on route #10 (Port Hardy to Prince Rupert) commencing in 2009;
G. the commissioner is satisfied that: • there is a need to acquire a vessel that will meet the core service requirements of route #10, currently provided at lower service levels by another vessel , the Queen of Prince Rupert, which is due to be retired in 2009; • it is prudent and timely to acquire another vessel as expeditiously as possible; • the proposed “new-build” vessel will meet the core service requirements on route #10 NOW THEREFORE the commissioner declares as follows: • the acquisition of the proposed replacement vessel (#2) for deployment on the Northern route group is reasonably required;-------------------------------------------------------------------------- Note that the core service, according to the Ferry Services Contract, has always been 3.5 round trips per week in peak season, which I presume BC Ferries will now not be meeting, since they haven't mentioned adding any southerly sailings by the Northern Adventure. I'd say that an argument could be made that BC Ferries is at least breaking the spirit of the agreement by which they were allowed to finance the NorEx, and possibly the letter of the agreement. Don't hold your breath waiting for Martin Crilly to hold their feet to the fire.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 10, 2010 19:15:44 GMT -8
As noted in the above post, the Coastal Ferry Services Contract appears to hold BC Ferries to provide 3.5 round trips a week on route 10, which is described as being between Port Hardy and Prince Rupert. I wrote Martin Crilly, the Ferry Commissioner, asking for clarification on this, but, not surprisingly, he didn't reply. Now, it looks like the BC government is at least going to go through the motions of questioning the move. No doubt David Hahn will be mighty huffy at even the possibility of meddling by the pols, but I doubt he has anything to worry about. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From The Tyee: More consultation needed on ferry route change: ministerBy Andrew MacLeod February 10, 2010 01:41 pm British Columbia Transportation Minister Shirley Bond said British Columbia Ferry Services Inc. needs to consult more with the public before she'll approve a controversial plan to run ferries from Tsawwassen to Prince Rupert. “There's been no final decisions made about that,” said Bond. “What I want to make sure is that communities have adequate opportunities to be consulted about that and there's obviously been some expression of concern in the Prince Rupert area in particular and along the northern corridor.” Prince Rupert mayor Jack Mussallem wrote to Bond in January. “We feel this will have serious, negative impacts on our tourism industry, and upon the ability of residents to access ferry services,” he wrote, adding it will mean job losses in Prince Rupert. The change, while adding service from Tsawwassen, would cut the number of sailings from Prince Rupert, he said. North Coast MLA Gary Coons sent Bond a Feb. 1 letter. “If the point of assembly for the vessels is moved to Tsawwassen, Prince Rupert will lose 100 full-time casual positions, 30-40 summer employment opportunities for students and an unknown amount of permanent full-time jobs,” he wrote. “We cannot afford to lose one job on the North Coast.” He added, “The proposal would also result in a substantial reduction of sailings into Prince Rupert with huge implications for tourism in Prince Rupert, Haida Gwaii and all along the Highway 16 tourist route, right into Prince George.” He encouraged Bond to reject any change in service levels on the route. Bond said she needs more information before she can make the decision. “We need to have all the facts and obviously government's going to make sure we have a really clear understanding of what this involves and what the impacts would be on communities,” she said. “Having said that we are interested in seeing tourism increase in British Columbia, we're looking at all the possibilities and this route addition, at least according to B.C. Ferries, is one of the things that may help do that.” Andrew MacLeod is The Tyee’s Legislative Bureau Chief in Victoria. thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/Transportation/2010/02/10/FerryChange/
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Post by lmtengs on Apr 15, 2010 20:55:50 GMT -8
Does anybody have any new information about this route, or has everything been hush-hush behind the closed main car-deck doors of the Queen of Fort Street?
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Post by WettCoast on Apr 28, 2010 21:48:49 GMT -8
I have heard (through the grapevine) that this proposal will not proceed in 2011.
I suspect that pressure from tourism interests in Rupert & elsewhere in northern BC have been successful. In case you did not know, they were not big fans on the proposal.
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