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Post by BrianWilliams on Aug 30, 2004 23:37:13 GMT -8
The Atlantic Monthly magazine, May 2004, has an excellent, chilling story about the Estonia tragedy. You can read the first few paragraphs at www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200405/langewiescheThe entire article is very long and detailed. The May 2004 issue should be available in most public libraries. It's worth reading, for an example of how a poorly-managed ferry can be a death trap, even in Northern Europe. This story saddens me, but also reminds me how our well trained BCF people and their (usually) sound ships keep us safe. More than 850 died because a poorly-secured bow door pounded open in an autumn storm. Worse, though, was the complete absence of trained crew to control the flooding, manage the ship and help the passengers.
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Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Aug 31, 2004 12:11:29 GMT -8
Yeah, no kidding, which is more important, arriving on time or actually staying alive to make it to the port, in other words passenger safety?? If you have to think about that, then there is something wrong with those ferry workers. I am sure are BC Ferries workers would do their best to keep passengers safe.
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Doug
Voyager
Lurking within...the car deck.
Posts: 2,213
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Post by Doug on Aug 31, 2004 18:18:10 GMT -8
Yes, most likely because BC Ferries is supposedly known for their envyable safety record. ;D
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Post by BrianWilliams on Sept 1, 2004 0:33:42 GMT -8
Thanks to the Atlantic article, I found this: www.onnettomuustutkinta.fi/estoniaIt's the full report, hundreds of pages and photos from the tri-national commission that investigated the Estonia disaster. Though it is unemotional and often technical, this report is very valuable to ferry workers, managers and passengers in BC. MV Estonia was about the size of our Spirit boats, and had similar lifesaving equipment. All of MV Estonia's life rafts, boats and PFDs were ineffective because they were inaccessible - or did not work when needed. MV Estonia's tragedy was worse than the Titanic. Of nearly 1,000 passengers and crew, only 137 survived. Do read the report, as much as you can, and hope that BCF management has also read every word. I am sure they have.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Sept 5, 2004 23:18:39 GMT -8
BC Ferries does have an enviable safety record (3 passenger fatalities in 40+ years, and one dog).
Maybe, more importantly, BC Ferries have avoided life-threatening incidents through good seamanship, well-maintained boats and .. perhaps .. good luck.
The narrow seas that BCF operates in can be as deadly as any in the world.
Even our oldest BC-built boats are designed to handle a full passenger load with ease. Look at my Queen of Chillwack posts: I griped about ex-Bastos's cramped companionways -- and that was before I read the Estonia story.
Basto/Chilliwack could be an Estonia death trap.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 6, 2004 8:36:46 GMT -8
Don't forget about the famous RaceHorse fatality in '79.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Sept 10, 2004 0:42:31 GMT -8
Racehorse '79? That's new to me. Please tell more...
Brian
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 10, 2004 6:55:39 GMT -8
On the Queen of Alberni's accident in Active Pass in 1979, when she ran aground & listed badly, there was a racehorse on board in a trailer, that died.
There was a large insurance claim made on the horse, but it was fraudulent, because the horse wasn't that proficient/valuable of a race horse.
Gary Bannerman's book has a few chuckles about the "less than stellar racehorse" that died in that accident.
I'm sure that there are crew members from the '79 Alberni that are even lurking on this message board today....or at least "someone who knows someone who was there".
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Post by BrianWilliams on Sept 30, 2004 0:11:27 GMT -8
Yesterday, 28 September was the 10th anniversary of the MV Estonia tragedy.
All of us who enjoy riding coastal ships; all of of us who expect safety in inshore waters; all of of us who have had the security of travel on BCF boats .. we must remember the 852 dead on MV Estonia.
This loss of life is incomprehensible and inexcusable .. on a well-built ship, where 5 other ferries were at sea and nearby when MV Estonia foundered.
I grieve for MV Estonia's victims. After careful reading, I blame poor maintenance of her bow ramp and visor.
I blame Sweden's maritime inspectors for overlooking obvious defects at Tallinn on departure. (Though the Swedes had no overriding authority, their 50% ownership may have aborted the sailing).
Had MV Estonia been a BC Ferries vessel, the twisted, bent, bow loading ramp would not have made one more voyage.
MV Estonia always loaded/offloaded through the bow at Tallinn, Estonia. Offloading and onloading was through the stern ramps at Stockholm.
Some evidence says that the Tallinn arrivals were delayed by improvised efforts to free the bow ramp and visor .. the locking devices, they say, were so badly deformed that Tallinn workers cut them with torches.
Then, Estonia's engineering crew were assigned to spot-weld the lugs back while at sea.
If true, this is abominable. It is not clear that 852 people died because of faulty welds, or bad seamanship.
852 people did die. They died while sailing on a well built ship, in rough, but survivable seas. At least seven other ferries were on the sea at that time. All suffered no damage or loss of life.
Five came to MV Estonias's rescue. Silja Europa's radio report is most sorrowful: "Like a Christmas tree .. but the lights are scattered far away.."
Silja Europa saw Estonia's deck lights, probably when her stern hit bottom, but the bow was still afloat.
The scattered lights were the mostly useless automatic lights on lifeboats and rafts. None of the 20-yr old life vests had lights. About 300 people had life vests to cling on -the straps were short or tangled- and a few more found refuge on rafts. Too many rafts were overturned, underinflated and tangled in ropes.
The ten rigid lifeboats were superb. 22' fibreglass vessels, with canopies, a mast, sails, oars for 20; provisions for weeks at sea. Compass, fishing tackle and a manual in many languages: "Don't drink seawater .. stay out of the sun"
One went to the bottom with Estonia. The other nine were bashed on the hull or drifted away, swamped and useless.
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Post by YO on Sept 30, 2004 15:26:19 GMT -8
the estonia was a badly built ship as she was built with CHEAP steel from the crappy 80s. the silja europa is a nice vessel what did the capsizion look like???
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Post by BrianWilliams on Oct 1, 2004 18:06:12 GMT -8
The quality of MV Estonia's design, materials and workmanship is very much a subject for debate. The opposing views are summarized in "The Outlaw Sea" by William Langewiesche (NY 2004). 96 of its 239 pages are devoted to the Estonia story. www.estonia.exprimo.net/estonia/index.html is a report even lengthier than the "official" tri-govt investigation. This one was commissioned by Meyer Werft, builders of Estonia. They go to great lengths to show that Estonia and other Meyer-built ships were soundly built; and that poor maintenance and brutal handling caused the disaster. Meyer Werft claim that as Viking Sally (1980), then Silja Star (1990), then Wasa King (1991), she was well-maintained and trouble free. On her transfer to Estline (Jan 1993), she was due for some upgrading and repair, including rebuilds in the bow visor/ramp locks and hinges. These were not performed. According to the Meyer Werft report, the young Republic of Estonia rushed her into trans-Baltic service, and ran her on a punishing all-season schedule. They further allege that the Estonian, Soviet-trained officers pressed her beyond her designed limitations, in a longer open sea route than she had encountered before 1993. Although she was certified for operation in sea ice, they allege that Estonian practice was to use her in heavier ice-breaking conditions than her previous owners. Ice damage to the bow, they claim, was unrepaired after her first winter season with Estline.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Oct 1, 2004 19:40:20 GMT -8
Anyway, it seems that both of these monumental reports, JAIC (the govts) and Meyer Werft are self-serving. JAIC tried to blame poor design/materials and excuse seamanship, inspection and maintenance.
Meyer Werft, of course, took the opposite view.
Mixed in with these are some bizarre conspiracy tales. Plutonium smuggling, Kurdish refugees and even the CIA. Just silly, irrelevant stuff.
After reading as much as I can, I tend to favour the Meyer side.
MV Estonia was only 14-1/2 years in service. Though certified for operation in open ocean in winter conditions, she was employed only in the Baltic archipelagos before 1993; not unlike our cross-Georgia conditions here. Though the Finland-Sweden routes are long, they are sheltered by islands. Estonia had an ice-certified hull, but she was not an icebreaker.
Meyer alleges that she had some ice damage in her first 12 years, and that had been repaired on a timely basis.
Estline's neglect of a very serious problem with bow ramp hinges and locks in her first year as MV Estonia seems likely. The anecdotal accounts of long berthing delays at Tallinn, while the crew struggled to open the bow may be true.
Even JAIC acknowledges that mattresses and other materials were observed around the ramp area on their post-wreck diving survey, but they say this is inconclusive .. perhaps washed into the forward car deck after sinking. Some pics can be seen in both reports.
Meyer Werft claim, supported by statements from earlier passengers, that MV Estonia's deck crew often jammed mattresses into the gaps around the bow ramp to slow water ingress at sea, because the ramp could not be fully seated. They also claim, again supported by passenger observations on earlier trips, that the stern ramps were often opened slightly while under way, to drain sea water that exceeded the car deck scuppers' ability to release water.
Also convincing: the bow visor was recovered from the Baltic. Photos show that the inside of this massive door is heavily stained with oil a metre or more above its bottom. That's evidence that the visor routinely filled with water to the height of the bow wave. Perhaps poor design, or maybe unrepaired damage. Either way, that is a danger sign that should have had Estonia taken out of service until repaired.
Well, I hope y'all don't think I am obsessed with this subject. I am pleased that a few other folks here also know about MV Estonia.
As a ferry tale, it is of more than minor interest to BC Ferries' enthusiasts. I really believe that our ferry workers and managers are much more aware of safety, seamanship and maintenance.
Our sea conditions are usually less challenging .. but saltwater sailing with hundreds, often a thousand passengers is an enormous responsibility.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Oct 1, 2004 19:47:11 GMT -8
Just a test: I have typed saltwater in earlier posts, and it comes back as salthingyer
I'll try again: saltwater
Or: "saltwater"
Or: salt water
Let's see ---
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Post by BrianWilliams on Oct 1, 2004 19:51:08 GMT -8
Hmm, that's interesting.
S-a-l-t-w-a-t-e-r (one word) is posted as salthingyer ?
Is there a filter that finds this offensive, or incomprehensible? I'll stick to salt-space-water from now on. Or maybe "saltchuck", the all-purpose BC word for tidal seas!
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Post by The Ferry Man on Oct 1, 2004 22:18:15 GMT -8
saltwater..see if it does it for me
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Post by The Ferry Man on Oct 1, 2004 22:18:40 GMT -8
haha thats weird
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Post by yo on Oct 3, 2004 13:15:39 GMT -8
saltwater salt water
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Post by Harbourlynx Kid on Oct 3, 2004 19:51:07 GMT -8
TUGS+BARGES PWN THE JUNKY ESTONIA FERRY AND CRUISE SHIPS ALL THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by Brian Williams on Oct 10, 2004 18:54:10 GMT -8
YO YALL
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Post by BrianWilliams on Oct 10, 2004 19:40:03 GMT -8
As we accept our German-built ferries, let us be sure we have learned some lessons from MV Estonia's tragedy.
Ship classification societies -like Bureau Veritas- exist to provide insurers some certainty on a new build. They do not guarantee absolute safety of passengers and cargo in actual performance; that is supplemented by SOLAS (Safety Of Life At Sea) regulations.
MV Viking Sally (later Estonia) was built to BVs highest standard for service in open ocean plus winter ice. She also met SOLAS standards for evacuation and life saving equipment.
I don't argue now with BC Ferries' decision to buy from Germany's FSG. I do hope that we enforce our superior BC traditions in the contract.
Wider corridors than the SOLAS minimum (1.1 m). Open, overside ports from the car deck. Breakout windows on all enclosed decks.
The rest is our hands. Trained, confident crews. Lifeboats, rafts, lifejackets and floats that are serviceable, accessible and ready for immediate use.
Perhaps you all remember some irritants in the worker-mgmt strife this year. A few sailings were delayed, I remember, because a "gift shop" worker was to be subbed by a trainee; and some others like that.
Well, I am not beating the Ferry Workers drum .. but. All BCF employees are trained and tested in lifesaving and emergency procedures.
On MV Estonia, only a few dozen crew had any knowledge of emergency action. A couple of hundred more were employed to sell booze, sling hash, disco-dance and mop the toilets.
In a threatening time on one of our boats, I would expect every BCF employee to be willing and capable of saving my life.
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Post by BrianWilliams on Oct 10, 2004 19:46:06 GMT -8
Hack alert?
Before my post above, there is a "Brian Williams, Guest" post "YO YO .."
It's not me.
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Post by Brianilliams on Oct 12, 2004 15:56:38 GMT -8
JK IT IS ME! YO YALL YO YALL YO YALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by BrianWilliams on Oct 12, 2004 21:35:25 GMT -8
OK, guys. The "Brian Williams" spoofer is missing a "W", and is a couple of bricks short of a load.
Go skate in another park, pal.
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Post by NMcKay on Oct 14, 2004 9:25:48 GMT -8
yeah. hes been doing that lately. picking people to mascarade around as
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