Neil
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Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Aug 22, 2007 14:45:33 GMT -8
Well put. I wonder if a lot of Americans realize how perilously close George Bush has brought them to a police state. After 9-11, any paranoia is justified, and any racist profiling is just due diligence. Unbelievable that the FBI thinks it's incumbent on these guys to come forward and explain themselves for doing things that fair haired ferry fans on this forum can do any time, on any boat, without raising suspicion.
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Post by Barnacle on Aug 22, 2007 19:04:02 GMT -8
Without raising suspicion?
Think again.
The only people I've ever had cause to question were caucasian.
Don't get me wrong, I'm aware of the police state. But as someone whose butt is out on the line, every day, I want to know what the hell these guys were doing that aroused suspicion in so many independent observers. If someone wants to blow me up, I'd just as soon try to stop it, thanks.
It's a lot easier to remain righteously indignant when you're an outside observer. I hope to God you get to stay one.
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Post by BreannaF on Aug 22, 2007 19:44:12 GMT -8
Dueling thoughts on the subject:
Hummmm...... after reading all of the articles posted and linked to, my first line of reasoning went like this: During May and June, I was on 6 different WSF routes and a couple of smaller boats elsewhere in the state, taking pictures the whole way. Sure, I have some seagull pix, but I have a lot of pictures of insides of boats, things hanging on the walls of ferries, at least one picture on each pointing toward the bridge (or as I like to call it, the name of the boat posted below the windows of same), and so on. I've taken pix on the car decks for no apparent reason. I have pictures of empty docks, just for "posterity". I have pictures of lifeboats.
I have mostly traveled as a lone male, with out-of-state plates on his car (Oregon) and pulling a camera out of my jacket pocket. And I do have a greater than average interest in ferry boats and other forms of transportation. And, if they want to look me up, I have submitted an application for permanent residence in a foreign country. Oooooooooo!
So, why will I not think twice about what I do? Well, perhaps "they" will just see an out-of-shape, slightly-graying, ferry fan taking pictures? (I hope it's not just that.)
I am more of a conspiracy theorist than I probably should admit, when it comes to the US government. But in this case, my guess is that there is more to these two than just their race. I'm going to presume they were doing something out of the ordinary, even for ferry fans.
And if someone wants to question me as to why I am taking a picture of Quinault's interior or of the spacious car deck space on a Jumbo, I will tell them the truth, presume that all will go well, and be thankful that someone cared enough to ask.
Besides, as any amateur photographer would know, if I wanted a picture of the engine room, I would ask first, and not just go there. And if the crew said no, which I expect they would, I would be very understanding of that, and thank them anyway.
Perhaps that's the part of their profile that made people suspicious. I'm not too worried about my own actions.
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Koastal Karl
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Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on Aug 22, 2007 21:47:38 GMT -8
Just tonight I had a young ferry worker come up to me and ask me about my camera on the Queen of Saanich as I was snapping photos out on deck. I also took a few interior shots tonight of the Saanich but I try to do it at the end of the sailing when everyone is either gone down to their cars or waiting to walk off at one end of the ship. I am not at terrorist. I like ferries, I like to photograph them. lol!
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Post by BreannaF on Aug 22, 2007 22:05:57 GMT -8
Just tonight I had a young ferry worker come up to me and ask me about my camera on the Queen of Saanich as I was snapping photos out on deck. I also took a few interior shots tonight of the Saanich but I try to do it at the end of the sailing when everyone is either gone down to their cars or waiting to walk off at one end of the ship. I am not at terrorist. I like ferries, I like to photograph them. lol! I'm just curious -- was he wanting you to stop taking pictures? Was he just inquiring as to what you were doing? I'm just looking for the context. Was this a friendly encounter or a bit of making sure your intentions were pure? Or was it hostile, as in you shouldn't be doing that on board?
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Neil
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Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Aug 22, 2007 22:16:13 GMT -8
barnacle: I don't think I'm being righteously indignant, and, 'outside observer' or not, I would certainly never question legitimate measures to keep ferry passengers and crew safe from terrorist threats. But the day we stop questioning official suspicions against groups and individuals simply because the powers that be declare someone to be a possible threat, we may as bloody well kiss our rights and civil freedoms goodbye.
Despite there not having been a single act of terrorism in the U.S. since 9-11, the Shrub and his henchmen have created a level of paranoia where it's entirely conceivable that many 'independent observers' might all look at a couple of middle eastern types showing an inordinate interest in ferries and all come to the conclusion that these guys were up to no good.
On this forum, we've had people do things that might seem pretty bizarre, and perhaps very suspicious, to non ferry fans, or to people on the lookout for possible seditious behaviour. Photographing stairwells, doors, non passenger areas, empty and full car decks, terminal areas; clambering around under docks and other restricted areas, and protesting when their right to do so was questioned. I'm only being slightly facetious when I suggest that if they were Arabic looking and caught doing such things on WSF territory, the day is coming when they could expect a one way ticket to Guantanamo Bay, and an Al Qaeda operative for a cell mate. In Shrub's world, if they say you're a terrorist, you are a terrorist. That's what makes me so uncomfortable about people turning others in to the FBI... even if it's just a matter of being suspicious, and even if the FBI says they just want to have a friendly talk and clear things up.
Random thought: anybody who is so blatant as to be conspicuously examining every aspect of a bunch of ferries and asking all sorts of questions, causing all sorts of people to take photographs and get suspicious, probably will make a darned poor terrorist.
I understand your concern, barnacle, and I respect it. I just find the ease with which we buy into an official drift toward suspicion and surveillance, in both our countries, very troubling. And I understand Brian's willingness to answer questions put to him about his photography- we just have to be very mindful of who's asking us, and why.
Karl, I breathed a huge sigh of relief to hear that you're not a terrorist. Now I don't have to worry about Flugel Horn's safety when he's with you on excursions. Guilt by association, you know.
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Koastal Karl
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Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
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Post by Koastal Karl on Aug 22, 2007 22:40:55 GMT -8
It was more of a friendly encounter really just curious as to if my camera was good at taking evening night shots. Then he mentioned there was whales earlier so he was just being friendly as it was a nice evening to be photographing!
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Post by zman on Aug 25, 2007 19:27:12 GMT -8
That is the best way to approach somebody. Make friendly conversation and see what comes of it. I would hope that some people who have bad intentions would be a little nervous when all the workers say "hi" or makes some friendly conversation. It is when the person taking photos gets nervous or agitated by the friendly conversation that suspicions should arise.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Oct 6, 2007 19:08:48 GMT -8
Photos, video of state ferries are usually OKseattlepi.nwsource.com/local/6420AP_WA_Ferry_Photos.htmlTHE ASSOCIATED PRESS OLYMPIA, Wash. -- Although state ferry workers were told last summer to watch for two men taking suspicious photos, there's nothing wrong with shooting photos or video on Washington ferries. Just stick to the public areas. What is against the rules is taking pictures in nonpublic areas, said Susan Harris, customer information services manager. In August, the FBI asked for public help in identifying the men who had been taking pictures, going places passengers don't normally go and asking technical questions about the ferries. Authorities received hundreds of tips, but the men have not been identified, Harris said. Meanwhile, dozens of videos taken aboard state ferries are available through Web sites such as YouTube.com. Many are edited into short films, showing cars and people crisscrossing Puget Sound. "My aunt actually lives on Bainbridge Island, and I go to visit her every summer. I've taken the trip, like, 100 times, and I wanted to shoot some time-lapse video," said Brian Lange, who posted his video of the passage on YouTube. Lange, a professional filmmaker who lives in Chicago, said he wondered if ferry personnel would challenge him. "I was concerned about that because after 9/11, everything got stricter. I didn't ask permission; I just carried the camera by my waist and set it on the railing. I wasn't going to turn it off until I was told to turn it off," he said. Beth Marsau of Ferndale shot video of Seattle's waterfront from a departing ferry last summer without causing alarm. "I was just going to a wedding, and I always carry my camera around and decided to shoot to the seagulls," she said. A member of the Bellingham Nonprofit Music Association, she later edited to video to go with a song by a friend and posted it on the Internet. "I did send an e-mail at somebody at the Department of Transportation and got a message back saying they couldn't watch videos on YouTube at work," Marsau said. Harris reviewed some of the online ferry video at the request of The Olympian newspaper. None presented a problem. "What you see are just basically tourism videos," she said. "Some of them are very talented pieces." --- Information from: The Olympian, www.theolympian.com
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Oct 8, 2007 23:23:03 GMT -8
Not that it's actually related to the "august incident", I will mention that this summer, I took some photos on the Northern Adventure for the drawing office of BCF. As I was wandering around the ship, taking pictures of everything from fire stations to lifeboats, I noticed I was being followed numerous times and was stopped twice by crew members. I kind of expected it to happen since I was in "civilian attire" so I made sure I had my employee ID card in my pocket to prevent anything from becoming an issue. They just asked me what I was doing, and why. It is somewhat comforting to know that this kind of thing does get noticed by crew. I also had talked to the captain prior to taking the pictures to let him know what I was doing.
On a related note, I did receive a company wide email alerting employees about the two suspicious men and to watch for similar activity.
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Post by SS San Mateo on May 5, 2008 13:03:26 GMT -8
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Neil
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Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 5, 2008 19:21:06 GMT -8
So. Two brown guys conspicuously wandering around ferries, taking pictures and asking questions, weren't middle eastern terrorists after all. Amazing, eh? Bet they had a couple of cells at Gitmo just waiting for those guys.
Wouldn't it be nice if terrorists always advertised their presence the way these two fellows seemed to be doing?
Unfortunately, in the real world, despite The Shrub's brave vow to "smoke 'em out", and an expenditure of untold billions, six and a half years after 9-11, Osama and friends are still laughing, and forwarding their propaganda tapes whenever they feel like it to Al Jazeera.
But brown guys taking pictures on ferries? Homeland Security, the FBI, and even the citizenry are watching you guys like hawks.
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Post by Retrovision on May 5, 2008 21:13:35 GMT -8
So. Two brown guys conspicuously wandering around ferries, taking pictures and asking questions, weren't middle eastern terrorists after all. Amazing, eh? Bet they had a couple of cells at Gitmo just waiting for those guys. Wouldn't it be nice if terrorists always advertised their presence the way these two fellows seemed to be doing? Unfortunately, in the real world, despite The Shrub's brave vow to "smoke 'em out", and an expenditure of untold billions, six and a half years after 9-11, Osama and friends are still laughing, and forwarding their propaganda tapes whenever they feel like it to Al Jazeera. But brown guys taking pictures on ferries? Homeland Security, the FBI, and even the citizenry are watching you guys like hawks. And we should take everything the FBI, etc., tells us at face value and not ask questions. The FBI tells us to be afraid and look out for brown guys and we do, furthering and advocating the prejudicial mindset of the public, and regardless of if they were actually perceived as a threat so far greater than any other person " interested in the size of the boats, how they work, and the docking procedures" - like any curious ferry fan - to the point that their case and only their case gets that kind of media attention and they are exonerated some 3/4 of a year later, that prejudicial stain on the consciences of the public condoned by the mainstream media attention is now well entrenched. I'd argue that the FBI were quite successful in achieving their objective of tinting the glasses of the traveling public in a hue of their choosing.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 5, 2008 21:41:55 GMT -8
I'd argue that the FBI were quite successful in achieving their objective of tinting the glasses of the traveling public in a hue of their choosing. And I wouldn't for a second disagree. Allegations are virtually always more prominent than exonerations. Senator Joseph McCarthy understood that very well, and he has many students.
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Post by ruddernut on May 6, 2008 1:31:20 GMT -8
Can brown guys even stand up on an airplane without getting jumped on by all the other passengers?
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Post by Retrovision on May 6, 2008 4:47:26 GMT -8
Photos, video of state ferries are usually OK Just don't use a tripod inside a BCFSI vessel, "God help you" if you do it while brown though Neil's right about us conspicuous ones making the worst terrorists and what I'd call the absurdity of anyone thinking otherwise; it almost seems that WSF is more lenient about this kind of issue than we who pride ourselves on our charter are north of the border. I cannot remember how many times I've been stopped by crew members of varying ranks when utilizing a tripod to steady my shots indoors on various major BCFSI vessels. I, like Karl and many others, try to avoid busy times when pointing my massive lens where crowds might be while still trying to include some life in my shots - more as a courtesy to fellow passengers than anything - and I even go as far as to strike up a friendly conversation with any crew in close proximity to explain my initial personal policy of trying to not publish their faces online unless told otherwise, and yet seemingly countless times I've been stopped simply because I was using a tripod. In most cases I'm told a line that's obviously straight out of policy they've been told to enforce saying that I'm not allowed to to take these pictures without permission and, I think every time, that's mysteriously and immediately been waived by telling me, after I explain who I am, etc., that next time I'll have to ask for permission. I'm lucky to have my parents to use as a sounding board for matters like this, my dad a photographer by education and who was in television/video production by trade and both he and my mom strong yet rational supporters of our charter or rights and freedoms, because otherwise I'd probably long ago been discouraged by such lectures from crew and not taken such opportunities to document ferries to the extent that I have for historical record, let alone not honed my focus on improving my photography skills, possibly - hyperbole, I know - denying me an education in photography that I'm about to persue mainly because of the calling that being a ferry fan has provided.
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Post by SS San Mateo on May 10, 2008 10:40:25 GMT -8
Ferry Alert: Edmonds Terminal Bomb Threat"The Edmonds Terminal is currently being evacuated due to a bomb threat. This will delay all outgoing and incoming Ferries until further notice. Updates to Follow. If you are headed to the Edmonds Terminal, please stop and call Wa. State Ferries @ 1-888-808-7977" Lovely.... just bloody lovely
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Post by Retrovision on May 10, 2008 11:08:29 GMT -8
"Thank god" BC ferries aren't yet subject to such indiscriminate delays.
Thanks for the notice, LB.
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Post by SS San Mateo on May 10, 2008 11:29:45 GMT -8
More details... Passenger's remark triggers ferry terminal evacuationwww.komotv.com/news/18829614.htmlBy KOMO Staff EDMONDS - The state ferry terminal at Edmonds was evacuated and sailings on the run have been suspended after two ferry passengers were overheard talking about a bomb. Washington State Patrol troopers said the ferry was being loaded for a sailing to Kingston when one drive-aboard passenger was heard saying to a friend, "Let's put the bomb in the trunk." The person who overheard the remark reported it to ferry personnel, who in turn alerted the Washington State Patrol. The passenger who made the remark and his friend were taken into custody by troopers, who interviewed them. The passengers told troopers that they did not have a bomb in their vehicle, and that the statement was a dumb remark made in jest. Nevertheless, the ferry was then offloaded, the terminal evacuated and a sweep was conducted as a standard precaution. Ferry officials are trying to finish their investigation and get the ferries moving again as soon as possible. In the meantime, a Washington State Ferries spokesperson said the evacuation would delay all outgoing and incoming ferries between Edmonds and Kingston until further notice. The passengers who triggered the alert remain in custody.
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Post by Kahloke on May 10, 2008 20:07:31 GMT -8
I was on the Walla Walla sailing that got held up because of the bomb comment. We sat out in Puget Sound going around in lazy circles for over an hour waiting for the police to clear M/V Spokane. Spokane finally left Edmonds around 12:10. When I walked off the ferry - I was the first foot passenger off - I was met by a King 5 reporter and camera crew. They interviewed me, mostly wanting to know which ferry I was on, and what WSF had told us about the incident. I was actually on the 5 o'clock news tonight. It was just a sound bite, but there I was. The crew on the Walla Walla was actually pretty informative. They kept coming on the PA every few minutes updating us passengers as to the status of the situation. At first, they didn't even know what was going on. Fortunately, my return sailing this evening was less eventful, and it was even on time, so they obviously got back on schedule sometime this afternoon. So, that was my adventure for the day!
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Post by EGfleet on May 11, 2008 6:26:08 GMT -8
I was on the Walla Walla sailing that got held up because of the bomb comment. We sat out in Puget Sound going around in lazy circles for over an hour waiting for the police to clear M/V Spokane. Spokane finally left Edmonds around 12:10. When I walked off the ferry - I was the first foot passenger off - I was met by a King 5 reporter and camera crew. They interviewed me, mostly wanting to know which ferry I was on, and what WSF had told us about the incident. I was actually on the 5 o'clock news tonight. It was just a sound bite, but there I was. The crew on the Walla Walla was actually pretty informative. They kept coming on the PA every few minutes updating us passengers as to the status of the situation. At first, they didn't even know what was going on. Fortunately, my return sailing this evening was less eventful, and it was even on time, so they obviously got back on schedule sometime this afternoon. So, that was my adventure for the day! Yep, you're on the net now: www.king5.com/topstories/stories/NW_051008WAB_edmonds_ferry_evacuated_KS.e92c86e8.html
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Post by BreannaF on May 11, 2008 10:28:41 GMT -8
Two amazing things, for different reasons:
1) Isn't it amazing that in this day and age, it is still a surprise to anyone that when you are hanging around the airport, the ferry terminal, or wherever -- you can't just go around and be talking about a bomb, a balm, Canadian plane & train manufacturers, the rapper's girlfriend being "da bomb" or anything else like that. Especially if you are going to be really clear and say "Let's put the bomb in the trunk".
Let's hope they get everything they deserve. No, I don't believe in cruel or unusual punishment, but if a guard walked by his cell and said something like "We'll just put the serial sodomizer in the cell with this guy for now" and made it sound convincing, it wouldn't bother me too much. (That would be making the comment so he hears it -- not the real thing!)
2) Isn't it amazing (in a good way) that, although there are relatively few of us here, just how often one or another of us seems to be on the spot when something happens in the ferry world? And gets in the news telling about it! Bravo Orcas! Nice soundbite.
***EDIT*** Hey, Mrs. K came up with an even better explaination -- one of those "why didn't I think of that" things: A couple of dopeheads get on a ferry and say,"Let's put the bong* in the trunk." That actually makes sense! *(A waterpipe used for smoking pot, for those not in the know...)
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Post by Kahloke on May 11, 2008 15:02:17 GMT -8
hmmm - "Bong In the Trunk". Sounds like a good song title to me, or album name ;D
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Post by BreannaF on Jul 17, 2008 0:13:33 GMT -8
Article from today's Seattle Times tells us that the State patrol is going to try taking photos of everyone's license plates and will be alerted if they find a stolen car, someone they are on the lookout for, and so on. Despite my misgivings about random stops, I don't really have a problem with this scheme. It does not involve stopping and questioning everyone and making them prove their innocence. It only seems to alert police to the presence of particular vehicles that may contain persons who would be worth a second look. I would love to see less time for retention of the pictures on this, but as a whole, this is not a particularly bad way to provide some security. ====================================================== Washington State Patrol cameras will snap license-plate photos at 2 ferry docksThe State Patrol has begun testing a camera system at two ferry docks that automatically snaps photographs of license plates and checks the numbers against lists compiled by the FBI.By Leslie Anne Jones Seattle Times staff reporter The State Patrol has begun testing a camera system at two ferry docks that automatically snaps photographs of license plates and checks the numbers against lists compiled by the FBI. Then plates of all vehicles driven aboard ferries at Seattle's Colman Dock and the Bainbridge Island ferry terminal are being checked against lists of vehicles that were reported stolen; the subject of an Amber Alert; connected to suspected terrorists; or associated with felony arrest warrants, said Sgt. Trent Cain, spokesman for the State Patrol's Homeland Security division. If a license plate matches one on the list, an alarm goes off at a State Patrol command center, Cain said. Troopers will then look at the photo to verify a match and then, if necessary, respond to the ferry dock, Cain said. The process could take as little as a minute, Cain said. The photos are stored for 60 days and then purged from the system, according to a State Patrol news release. Numbers will not be shared with other agencies, Cain said. Doug Honig, spokesman for the American Civil Liberties Union of Washington, said two months seemed too long for the government to maintain records of comings and goings of citizens. "Programs like this are undertaken for laudable reasons," Honig said. "But if they don't have appropriate limits and controls, they end up ... moving us closer to a surveillance society." Cain said the 60-day retention was in line with how long other footage, like that on other kinds of security cameras, is retained by the State Patrol. "The only thing the database has is a bunch of license plates," Cain said. "You walk into a bank or a store and there's more cameras on you." Cain said the cameras don't take photos of passengers — they're designed to take a photograph of the rear license plate when a car drives past the toll booth. The cameras capture license-plate numbers both day and night and are capable of getting a license-plate number off a car moving at a high rate of speed, Cain said. "Basically, this is another layer of security to protect the infrastructure of our Washington State Ferry system," Cain said. The system cost just under $250,000 to install, Cain said. If the program is successful, the State Patrol will try to have cameras installed at all state ferry terminals, according to the release.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jul 17, 2008 15:17:50 GMT -8
"The only thing the database has is a bunch of license plates," Cain said. "You walk into a bank or a store and there's more cameras on you."
I'm not saying that this is necessarily a bad thing, but I can't help but notice that every time citizens are subjected to a new level of surveillance, part of the rationale is always that people already are being photographed and recorded, so, hey, what's the big deal about a little more.
Surveillance leads to more surveillance. We get more and more used to being watched, having our movements recorded, and even having our purchases tracked. We are getting habituated to the idea that 'security' trumps privacy, every time, and I'm not sure I trust the ones who are defining 'security'.
The ferries need to be safe, for staff and the public. But we need to look carefully at every move toward more surveillance, and how the surveillance records are kept, to be sure that the loss of privacy isn't greater than the increase in security.
These cameras might be a good idea. I just hope we're giving it some thought.
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