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Post by Political Incorrectness on Apr 28, 2007 17:16:46 GMT -8
So if there is a labour shortage, in what respects? It should not effect the building unless you have a shortage of workers to the specific field of the job. Now when you mean "skilled' workers, do you mean in specialized fields such as welding? What we are doing here is we have this relation in our local college so that it caters to where jobs are needed and where demand is due to it being state funded. I wonder if your colleges/universities have programmes available so that people who want to train for certain fields of work can get there? If education and labour needs don't work together, how can you fill the shortage?
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Post by Queen of Vancouver on Apr 28, 2007 17:49:00 GMT -8
P-rebel: You are missing my point, on the first 2 items. Regardless of same process and same equipment between BC & Germany (and that itself is not true), there IS a labour shortage in BC right now, and my point was re how that BC labour shortage would have impacted our ability to have built the ships in a BC shipyard today. Same with the 3rd point: There is not an endless supply of skilled workers in Western Canada that would be available to build these ships. The Olympic-games construction projects would already be taking some of the available workers away from possible ferry-construction work too. That might leave few workers available to construct the ferries in BC. 4th Point: I'm sure that someone on this board is familiar with the Fort MacMurray phenomena, and what it's done to the Canadian labour pool...... You have a veary good point Mr. Flugel.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Apr 28, 2007 18:59:10 GMT -8
Good point Dane and I heard a similar thing about the supply ships for the navy etc. We should remember that out of the submissions of interest 9 shipyards responded from around the world. One of those was Canadian. 3 International ones were shortlisted. I don't know the criteria that was used but one would have been applied to the bids. It would be silly for me to comment on the process because I simply don't have the facts in front of me. BC Ferries would have known there would have been a backlash from hiring a shipyard outside of BC so I am sure they were smart enough to make sure the process was fair. This was not a slam dunk giving all our potential jobs to a "foreign" company. My business is subject to call for submissions and tenders all the time. I wish I could say that I felt all were fair decisions (just perhaps I am a bit biased to my own company ) Who knows what was involved with the ferries. But the fact that Flensburger has agreed to performance criteria tells us something. Maybe the Canadian shipyard wasn't able to provide the same assurances. After the Fast Ferry Fiasco I would hope that some severe penalties were applied to the contracts should the ferries not perform according to specifications and on time and on budget. From what I hear from a friend in Germany a businessman at one of the worlds largest candy manufacturers, Flensburger delivers just those things. I am sure Flensburger covered their side of the contract with costs for last minute change orders and any other kind of interference. Many of our industries that export business to the US face this same discussion all the time but on the other side of the coin. I built a very successful client base in New York City at my last employer. The clients there were very astute and didn't care where I was from. What mattered to them was I provided the best service and best product to help them. In Washington DC (not government as clients) the exact opposite happened in that it was a huge struggle to get business. First of all I was from a Canadian company and worse yet I wasn't from inside the beltway (freeway that circles DC). Isolationist versus free trade debate continues. This is a good stimulating discussion but one I had better reread tomorrow and not on a Saturday night after a big meal and wine. I thereby reserve the right to edit in the morning
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Post by Ferryman on Apr 28, 2007 20:49:13 GMT -8
As one who is currently residing in the Sea to Sky Corridor, with Whistler and Vancouver at my front and back doorstep, and also being in the roofing business, I can confirm that there is quite the shortage tradespeople. Currently I'm roofing Hotels, Appartments, and a never ending supply of Townhomes. I've talked to Plumbers, Framers, and Electricians about how they're doing for employment, and they've told me that they can never have enough workers, and I've even been offered a job in mid conversation, with a wage competing with my current job. We're even looking for people to help out, as my boss and I are barely able to keep up. Even when I was in High School, tradespeople were coming to the school and doing presentations trying to get students interested in getting involved in a trade. But most student nowadays much rather go and blow a large amount of money into University and get a bunch of Degrees and what have you. I can't blame them, the construction world isn't fun, especially when you're working outside all day everyday and meteorologists are noticing record amounts of rain. So, is there enough interest out there for tradepeople in this Province? Absolutely, but the only thing is the cost of living here is quite high. So people might get their trade here, and then move somewhere else to somewhere more affordable. Welders? Well, I'm not really sure about what sort of plans they would have for future jobs in life. I don't think I've ever come across a person who's said that they're training to be a welder of ships. I'd guess it would be one of those jobs that if one just happened to see a posting for employment, one would just apply and see what there is to offer.
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Post by Queen of Vancouver on Apr 28, 2007 21:39:33 GMT -8
Good point Chris, that is so true.
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Post by Neil on Apr 28, 2007 23:45:25 GMT -8
Hmmh... who was it, many posts ago, who said he wasn't really into complex financial- economic questions to do with ferries.... that he was more a hobbyist-fan type... lessee... I swear it was.... 'Flugal-something'.... now he's going all London-School-of-Economics on us. I've tried my best to grasp the application of the 'comparative advantage' theory to the specific question of building here or overseas, but I can't quite do it. As the summary to that piece said, there are many variables in the real world that perhaps aren't taken into account in that formula. It was an interesting exercise, though; thanks for bringing it up, and maybe someone with more aptitude for economic theory than me can see the analogies. The theory talks only of labour as a factor of production, when with shipbuilding, we're talking of many differences in production between here and Germany- the efficiency and production scale of plants, government assistance, and others. It is also hard to see ship building in Canada as a "least worse" or "most best" proposition, compared to other enterprises the Germans might engage in. Ship building in Canada right now, if taken on it's own and in isolation from all other economic factors in this country, might indeed seem very hard to justify. I just believe it is absolutely impossible to determine the true value of building in Canada by looking at individual project costs. I have no respect for people who say, "This boat will cost X dollars to build here, 75%X in Germany, so let's build there." That view is shallow and short sighted. I do respect (though I might disagree with) the view that takes into account the overall cost of upgrading construction facilities, perhaps higher project costs, along with all the benefits of employment, taxation and other factors that go with building here. It's a complicated formula. Neglect of industrial infrastructure, both politically and corporately, is a vicious cycle. It leads to decreased ability to bid competitively on projects, which leads to shrinking returns, which leads to more neglect, less competence, and so forth. Conversely, the conviction that an industry can have a positive effect on the economy as a whole, while at first expensive to initiate, can eventually lead to more modern, efficient plants, winning more work, becoming more able to bid competitively, eventually perhaps becoming able to stand entirely on their own. That takes a commitment that we just don't have in either Victoria or Ottawa, especially, when you consider that BC Ferries is absolutely forbidden in it's charter to take the greater good of the BC economy into consideration in it's planning and expenditures.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Apr 29, 2007 4:59:09 GMT -8
What we are doing here is we have this relation in our local college so that it caters to where jobs are needed and where demand is due to it being state funded. I wonder if your colleges/universities have programmes available so that people who want to train for certain fields of work can get there? If education and labour needs don't work together, how can you fill the shortage? Trying to pump up the supply of a resource is a nice idea, but there is a long lead time between the realization of the need for a resource and the actual availability of the resource for use, especially when it comes to skilled labour. You cannot take someone right out of school and expect them to perform like a worker who has 10 yrs experience...they just don't have the same grasp of their skill set. There is also a delay between the time a realization of need sets in and the implementation of a solution. Everything take time, and, unfortunately, it is hard to come up with a quick fix.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Apr 29, 2007 5:29:57 GMT -8
I just believe it is absolutely impossible to determine the true value of building in Canada by looking at individual project costs. I have no respect for people who say, "This boat will cost X dollars to build here, 75%X in Germany, so let's build there." That view is shallow and short sighted. I do respect (though I might disagree with) the view that takes into account the overall cost of upgrading construction facilities, perhaps higher project costs, along with all the benefits of employment, taxation and other factors that go with building here. It's a complicated formula. This is very true. Unfortunately, many companies (and maybe government agencies) seem to have concluded (or be coming to the conclusion) that the bottom line is the lowest bidder at the moment is the best way to go. I battle with this on a regular basis. In order to win the lowest bidder takes all contracts, we are being forced to use our lowest contractor bid numbers, and many times I have regretted it because of the headaches it has caused me down the road. But if I don't do it, I won't be in business because someone else will do it, and I can't remain competitive. Negotiated contracts seems to becoming a thing of the past for our larger accounts. This is a common subject and very much a sore point in our office. But the fact that Flensburger has agreed to performance criteria tells us something....I am sure Flensburger covered their side of the contract with costs for last minute change orders and any other kind of interference. We constantly try to ensure we have covered our butts when it comes to inclusions, exclusions, and performance guarantees, but even when you have explicitly excluded an item, sometimes the battle required to get a change order involving said item approved is historical. Add to this the new O&P limits of 5% being imposed on many contracts, a company can find themselves in a whole world of hurt if they have even a small problem.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Apr 29, 2007 7:29:53 GMT -8
Hmmh... who was it, many posts ago, who said he wasn't really into complex financial- economic questions to do with ferries.... that he was more a hobbyist-fan type... lessee... I swear it was.... 'Flugal-something'.... now he's going all London-School-of-Economics on us. It was a simple as this: Herr Brinkmann mentioned that Flensberger does "what it does best", and wondered why others couldn't similarly find their own niche......to paraphrase him. This argument took me back 20 years to my college economics course, which was ripe with free-trade talk back in the months leading up to the Canada-USA free-trade-agreement in the late 1980's. This theory was discussed back then. I though it would be relevant to bring it up here, since that seemed to be what Herr Brinkmann was saying. I wasn't trying to justify that this theory matched the ferry-build-arguement...I was just trying to say that "Hey, what he said is part of a famous economic theory". I tried to leave it at the point of saying that this theory was similar to what he (Brinkmann) was saying.........I wasn't wanting (or able) to do an analysis of the whole situation or to conclude on its relevance to the newbuild issue. I did the big cut-paste just so that someone could read the theory if they wanted to.....in case they found it interesting. So, if you were able to see a connection to what Brinkman had said about Flensberger's niche, to part of this old economic theory, then that was my point. As Hornbyguy pointed out, I have tried to stay away from the argueing out of these issues, the disecting of the theory etc, and getting all passionate about the issue of "here" or "there" for building. I believe that I've continued to do that here. I don't have the passion or persistence to debate the fine detail or ramifications of this item.....I just thought that you might find the connection between Brinkman's quote and the "theory" interesting.......... Flugel clarifying his motivation....
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Post by shipyard on Apr 29, 2007 21:04:56 GMT -8
I think the large problem with our shipbuilding industry in the province is the way the gov't went about awarding the ferry contracts in the past (Spirits and Cats). Instead of pumping resources into one or two big yards to get the infastructure in place, the work was fragmented out to many smaller yards. This meant that once the ferries were built, the gov't moderated relationships between all these yards pretty much dissolved, leaving no central "company" to go out and bid on large jobs, having no infastructure to do the job. When work is that spread out at that many places, efficiency usually suffers.
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Post by Hardy on Apr 29, 2007 21:32:48 GMT -8
I think the large problem with our shipbuilding industry in the province is the way the gov't went about awarding the ferry contracts in the past (Spirits and Cats). Instead of pumping resources into one or two big yards to get the infastructure in place, the work was fragmented out to many smaller yards. This meant that once the ferries were built, the gov't moderated relationships between all these yards pretty much dissolved, leaving no central "company" to go out and bid on large jobs, having no infastructure to do the job. When work is that spread out at that many places, efficiency usually suffers. This is a specific example of the gov't hamstringing the industry. The micromanaging that took place on the 'cats also had the negative impact of running them over budget etc (ad infinitum). At least with FSG in the Fatherland, and the contract IMPLICITLY written the way it is, BCFS has had few if any alterations to the build plan -- and hence, on time and on budget. To paraphrase what I often say in my work "Stop telling me how to do my job and peering over my shoulder! F-off and let me do what you are paying me to do!"
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Post by Northern Exploration on Apr 30, 2007 7:24:58 GMT -8
Good points Hardy and Shipyard. Exactly the sort of thing that Government has been great at. When I say we should be more strategic and better stewards of the taxpayers dollars, these are the sort of things we need to avoid. We should find other uses for our current infrastructure and become very specialized at what we can do well and better than anyone else. Maybe we become the refit kings, who knows?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2007 23:07:30 GMT -8
At the time the before the Spirits were built, a number of the Shipyards were hurting(not enough work) and there was always talk of some of them closing down. Thats why a group of them got together to build the Spirits---they also had to post a bond of some sort to guarantee that the work would be done.
The stern was made at Yarrows and the bow and the superstructure were made at two different shipyards on the mainland. The bow was towed over to the Esquimalt Graving dock to be joined with the stern and then the whole hull was towed back to the mainland for the Superstructure. It was then towed back to Esquimalt for the finishing work---stairwells and other things. I was at the launch of the sterns of both Spirits and for a tour of the first finished Spirit.
Yarrows did close down soon after the Spirits were built. Two of the major factors were that the 99 year lease on the land that Yarrows was on was expiring(land the federal government wanted back to expand the Navy Base. The other was that Yarrows owed the Municipality of Esquimalt, a few years of property taxes. Of course there were other reasons, some of which we will never know.
When Yarrows (1993-4) and the VMD (after the "V's and oil rig was built) closed down, many of the skilled workforce found work elsewhere. Many of the Skilled workforce are in international unions that would send workers to other provinces( mainly the rest of BC and Alberta) and countries (mainly the USA) to work. There was a lull in the Victoria area for a couple of years until Vic Ship and other shipyards started to get work on a continuous basis. As for the workforce, the shipyards have been hiring new apprentices. (A young man that I know just got hired as an apprentice welder.) If they can get steady work the workforce will stay in the area. It has either been "feast or famine" in shipbuilding industry in Victoria.
WAC Bennett did have a vision when he created BC Ferries. There should have been a law stating that the Ferries should have been built in BC. I've heard that WSF have to be built and repaired in Washington.
I think the BC Ferries has literally missed the boat on some of the things it could have done for future planning over the last several years. Instead of building the three fast cats, they should have built only one and tried it out before building number 2 and 3. The design was untested in BC Waters and they took a terrible risk with our money. The Shipyard workers are not to blame, the blame rest squarely on BC Ferries and the government of the time. Instead a third Spirit class or another C class Ferry could have been built. (Steel Hulled vessel) The Fleet is definitely aging and will need some longterm consideration for replacing the vessels.
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Post by Northern Exploration on May 1, 2007 5:35:27 GMT -8
Thanks for all the background Shipdaughterwife. Very good to know.
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Post by Barnacle on May 1, 2007 14:47:23 GMT -8
I've heard that WSF have to be built and repaired in Washington. Close. Washington shipbuilders, last I heard, were allowed a certain percentage of cost over out-of-state shipyards to keep them here. The Jones Act requires that the ships be built in the U.S.; I think there's a percentage rule about repairs. The fact that taxpayers raise a bloody great stink about US boats being repaired in Canada is only a sentimentalist issue (much like the one going on here ;D).
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Post by Hardy on May 1, 2007 18:10:42 GMT -8
I've heard that WSF have to be built and repaired in Washington. The Jones Act requires that the ships be built in the U.S.; I think there's a percentage rule about repairs. The fact that taxpayers raise a bloody great stink about US boats being repaired in Canada is only a sentimentalist issue (much like the one going on here ;D). Not to mention a partially bogus issue also, when remembering that the upper skilled level workers are ticketted in international unions (already stated). I do not know that all of the employees at Western Canadian shipyards are Canadian ... I would hesitate that some of them are probably landed immigrants even potentially US Citizens working at Canadian yards. Therefore, they ARE American workers just being paid by a Canadian company (which is probably owned by an American holding company or something in any regard....)
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 13, 2007 19:11:40 GMT -8
I just read the part of the book "Launching History" re the Burrard Dry Dock where in 1922 the Burrard company was competing in a ferry-build bid with a Scotland company called Napier. (page 53 of the book, for those who might want to read along.....) The initial bids were: Napier for $200,925, and Burrard for $249,000. The disparity between the 2 yards & countries included that Burrard workers were paid 67.5 cents/hour, and Napier workers were paid 33 cents/hour. Both bids were amended, and Burrard's bid ended up being $4,500 higher than Napier's bid. Napier of Scotland was awarded the contract for the ferry-build, but soon other issues including a change of Mayor/Council killed the ferry contract altogether, so the competing bid controversy became moot. ======================= I think that HornbyGuy mentioned this book as an example, earlier in this thread, or in another thread. I'm just including it here now, because I just happened to read it 15 minutes ago (I'm really enjoying the book!), and I recalled this book's stories being cited in these newbuild debates. I'm not saying that it is or isn't relevant to today's newbuild issues....I'm just citing it because it's interesting to me, and somewhat relevant.
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Post by Queen of Vancouver on May 14, 2007 4:48:51 GMT -8
Good point Mr. Flugel
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 14, 2007 5:26:20 GMT -8
Thanks, although I wasn't trying to make a point. I was just citing a similar occurence. Out of curiousity Mr. Revelstoke, would you like to explain your signature-words which are something about "the new ships supporting terrorism." I'm interested in knowing the reasons for that statement. If it's serious and not a joke, then maybe I might learn something....... Thanks!
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Post by Queen of Vancouver on May 14, 2007 16:56:41 GMT -8
Thanks, although I wasn't trying to make a point. I was just citing a similar occurence. Out of curiousity Mr. Revelstoke, would you like to explain your signature-words which are something about "the new ships supporting terrorism." I'm interested in knowing the reasons for that statement. If it's serious and not a joke, then maybe I might learn something....... Thanks! No I am not (saying that it is) supporting terrorism its just abought not building the ships in BC that all.
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Post by bmac51 on Jan 2, 2008 10:13:27 GMT -8
Any word on a boycot of the new ferries built in Germany. Would be a very affective way for BC 'ers to show their discontent for exporting jobs out of the province. I know my business could use another couple hundred people making union wages spending their money here in BC. I believe the cost saving for BC ferries has cost the taxpayers and small business in BC too much.
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Post by guest on Jan 2, 2008 10:38:03 GMT -8
not so sure about a boycott - which was talked about......but seems to have disappeared....?
Why haven't we seen a "BC Yard" version of Markus Brinkmann - or why haven't we seen any web cam pictures of the new intermediate ferry "Island Sky" been built?
I like the pictures that Kevin Stapleton has taken / shown for the new Super C's - Coastal - but why hasn't he been able to do the same for the BC built ferry?
Is the yard stopping him?
I guest the Coastal have come in on time & budget - from what we are lead to believe - but so far on the Island Sky - it started at $43M and now appears to be costing $57M - according to BCF own web site. There is question about the final choice of engines for the Island Sky - when Seaspan is also building a tug - which surprise - surprise is going to have the same make....discount for BCF ?
So a boycot....on what grounds?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 2, 2008 12:58:43 GMT -8
For anyone doing such a boycott, you should probably wait until the approximate-date when a similar BC-built ship would have been delivered (use the same starting point of when BC Ferries awarded the newbuild contract to Flensburger).
That goes for each of the 4 new Flensburger ships.
So that maybe gives you a couple of years to ride the Coastal Renaissance, and each successive ship, before your boycott-period begins.
Or maybe the grace-period increases for each ship, because of compounding BC-Shipyard capacity issues and because of a possible lack of BC-shipyard ability to do the pre-fab work on the 4th ship now (such as Flensburger is already doing with the Northern Expedition).
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Post by Neil on Jan 2, 2008 13:01:52 GMT -8
not so sure about a boycott - which was talked about......but seems to have disappeared....? Why haven't we seen a "BC Yard" version of Markus Brinkmann - or why haven't we seen any web cam pictures of the new intermediate ferry "Island Sky" been built? I like the pictures that Kevin Stapleton has taken / shown for the new Super C's - Coastal - but why hasn't he been able to do the same for the BC built ferry? Is the yard stopping him? I guest the Coastal have come in on time & budget - from what we are lead to believe - but so far on the Island Sky - it started at $43M and now appears to be costing $57M - according to BCF own web site. There is question about the final choice of engines for the Island Sky - when Seaspan is also building a tug - which surprise - surprise is going to have the same make....discount for BCF ? So a boycot....on what grounds? Cascade, you're back! Glad to see, since the scandal industry around here has gotten rather dull lately. You're a bit confused on the numbers. There has been no inflation on the Island Sky cost; $45 million or so was the shipyard contract, and $57 million was the total project cost for the vessel. No change. A boycott of foreign built vessels is totally unrealistic, although I support the sentiment. There is no broad public will for such a move. The Coastals will be as full as the traffic demands.
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Post by bmac51 on Jan 2, 2008 13:54:31 GMT -8
I'M NOT FROM A SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP JUST AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE THE LARGEST FERRY FLEET IN THE WORLD HAVE THEIR EQUIPEMENT BUILT IN THE AREA WHERE THEY DO BUSINESS. NOT UNLIKE THE FOREST INDUSTRY SENDING RAW LOGS SOUTH TO U.S, MILLS WHILE OURS GO UNMANNED. IF WE DON'T USE "THAT" FERRY DON'T YOU BELIEVE IT COULD HAVE AN IMPACT, I MAY HAVE TO WAIT AND HOUR OR LEAVE AN HOUR EARLIER TO SEND A MESSAGE, REALLY NOT A GREAT HARDSHIP.
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