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Post by Hardy on Mar 13, 2008 22:34:46 GMT -8
but I will try to find out, in which specific points CR is not SOLAS compliant and why (though I did that in excerpts before) and try to find something out about damage stability. Thanks for taking the extra effort, as always, Markus. I had been reluctant to ask, as I know that you are probably very busy, and this whole thread has been a little volatile lately. Many thanks in anticipation of the information! ;D
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Post by Scott on Mar 13, 2008 22:39:22 GMT -8
I'm not too qualified to speak on the center of gravity, but I was wondering how much it would change from an empty ferry to a full one? Especially when there are vehicles and bodies so high above the waterline.
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Post by Guest Horn on Mar 14, 2008 10:54:23 GMT -8
Markus,
Can you also provide what degree of heel is acceptable for the Coastal - given her size - under the damage stability standard - set to SOLAS90 reg's - as that is what BC Ferries will be required to operate under.
Also how many compartments are there in the hull on the Coastal - and what is the free-board on her - given the extremely flat bottom hull. This flat bottom and very little free-board - will have a direct effect on the heel degree - for the SOLAS regulations.
Are the 600Tons Ballast tanks - can these be used - to correct the heel if damage / collision on opposite side - provided the machinery room is still working?
A more simple question which I am sure your design department have presented to BCFS management - what would be the increase / extra weight to the vessel if you install flotation compartments to the internal walls / side - thereby having a internal sponsons system.
Would an central line bulkhead with doors at either end also add additional weight and delay the loading and unloading times - as required under the contract?
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Mar 14, 2008 16:16:14 GMT -8
I am wondering about all the speculation going around now. Re center of gravity it is not as simples as stated by cadmunkey. I now it inst as simple as I have stated it to be, but it is the basic principle I think in keeping the boat upright. It is how I keep my models upright. I am basing this on a first year physics course where we did some CG work. Markus was my work correct although not the entire solution. I think it helps to describe how a top-heavy ship differs from one which isn't. Cheers,
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Post by Northern Exploration on Mar 15, 2008 7:39:46 GMT -8
Markus I wouldn't wonder too much about the speculation that is going on. Someone is obviously miffed at the great reaction the Coastal Renaissance is getting and looking for ways to discredit BCFerries, the Coastals, or both by trying to hint that the Island Sky is better built (coincidence that is BC Built? ) because it is supposedly Solas compliant. Guest posting could be a media person looking to find some controversy to air - you never know. It is easier to ask you for answers Markus than do the research themselves for example . Just one possibility.
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Post by Hardy on Mar 21, 2008 9:34:39 GMT -8
Markus' own success and infamy, not to mention his willingness to indulge our questions seem to have lead to this 'trolling' episode. While I don't want to discourage Markus from answering our legitimate questions, I also don't want to see him burdened too much with the useless 'fluff'. Of course, Markus is an intelligent person who can decide on his own whom to answer and whom to ignore (and he has shown this in the past).
To Markus (again) Many thanks for your valued participation ...
To Trolls: read previous threads first, do some of your own research, and if you can ask it without being totally confrontational, you might actually get some meaningful and insightful dialog going with some of the more knowledgeable people on this forum! And who knows, you might learn something and enjoy yourself even!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Mar 27, 2008 13:01:21 GMT -8
test posting done on 3.27 08
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flugie just testing things out
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Post by flugie just testing things out on Mar 27, 2008 13:06:17 GMT -8
test for when I'm not logged in, re Dane's query re Google stuff
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 24, 2009 7:32:59 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 12, 2010 8:29:25 GMT -8
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Jun 12, 2010 8:48:45 GMT -8
Hmm, there's a difference between "could have" and "lowest Bidder". That was so long ago I don't remember if BC yards even put up a bid.
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Post by gordon on Jun 12, 2010 8:59:57 GMT -8
The shipyards say that the Coastals could have been built here, but were there not some issues with the Island Sky being both over budget & late. This was a much smaller & somewhat less complex ship.
Could a shipyard in Washington state have built the Coastals?
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Post by lmtengs on Jun 12, 2010 10:26:23 GMT -8
Why is it an issue with the feds that the ships were built overseas? If the Canadian shipyards didn't bid low enough to build them, that's their problem. The government doesn't seem to have a problem with all the Central-Americans coming to Pitt Meadows to pick berries all summer, so why should they have a problem with this? If BC has a labour shortage, then they should to open up jobs in ALL industries, not just ship-building. There's gotta be hundreds of illegal immigrants in Pitt Meadows picking berries, when those jobs could go to young Canadian citizens, like they did 20 years ago.
That's just my opinion....
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Post by Kahloke on Jun 12, 2010 12:06:15 GMT -8
Could a shipyard in Washington state have built the Coastals? If I remember correctly, this has been discussed before,. To my knowledge, Washington does not have any shipyards large enough to build a vessel the size of the Coastals.
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Jun 12, 2010 19:42:03 GMT -8
Why is it an issue with the feds that the ships were built overseas? If the Canadian shipyards didn't bid low enough to build them, that's their problem. The government doesn't seem to have a problem with all the Central-Americans coming to Pitt Meadows to pick berries all summer, so why should they have a problem with this? If BC has a labour shortage, then they should to open up jobs in ALL industries, not just ship-building. There's gotta be hundreds of illegal immigrants in Pitt Meadows picking berries, when those jobs could go to young Canadian citizens, like they did 20 years ago. That's just my opinion.... Wow! My dad and innumerable cynics from his generation could have a field day with that kind of suggestion... the inevitable consensus being that those young Canadians are so innately shiftless and lazy they aren't willing to raise a thumb to do real work like that. Perhaps the greater issue though, is that picking fruit for a season is okay if you are living a transient lifestyle and are only in this country temporarily. However, for many young people that want to get into the work force and start careers and families, transient work does not really pay the bills, especially here in the Lower Mainland. And that's even if you don't waste any money at all on booze, drugs and parties. I suppose every little bit of money one can make does help, but you also have to consider things seriously once in a while, too.
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Post by lmtengs on Jun 12, 2010 20:29:17 GMT -8
Wow! My dad and innumerable cynics from his generation could have a field day with that kind of suggestion... the inevitable consensus being that those young Canadians are so innately shiftless and lazy they aren't willing to raise a thumb to do real work like that. Perhaps the greater issue though, is that picking fruit for a season is okay if you are living a transient lifestyle and are only in this country temporarily. However, for many young people that want to get into the work force and start careers and families, transient work does not really pay the bills, especially here in the Lower Mainland. And that's even if you don't waste any money at all on booze, drugs and parties. I suppose every little bit of money one can make does help, but you also have to consider things seriously once in a while, too. I think that if kids really wanted the money, they'd do the work. Parents are being to generous these days. The average kid gets an allowance of at least 5$ a week. When my mom was a kid, it was 25 cents a week. Also, the hyper-parenting going on these days isn't helping either. What happened to "ruff & tumble" play? These days, the best a kid gets without a parent going nuts is an organized soccer or hockey team. A parent may see this as rough play, but it's so obviously not. There's a strict set of rules in place in both of those sports, severely limiting the freedom of the kids playing them. PLUS, they spend so much time doing these 'organized sports' that they have no time to go to jobs or get work done. Parents these days just aren't preparing their kids for real life. Don't get me wrong here, some parents aren't like that, I know. But it's an increasing trend, and it's not impacting modern society positively at all. Anxiety is rising among North America's youth, obesity, from too much sitting around and eating junk, and kids are getting generally lower grades, which I myself suspect is linked to spending so much time on websites like facebook (which I personally admit I am addicted to) , X-boxes (which i despise), cellphones (which melt your brain), and "team sports" (again, not good, but at least the kids get a bit of exercise). I know some of that wasn't really on topic, but I want to state my opinion on what I think of as a huge issue in today's society.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jun 12, 2010 21:38:18 GMT -8
I know some of that wasn't really on topic... That's the understatement of the year. Note thread heading. WARNING: The following contains opinions on building ships here as opposed to building them in Germany, as well as comments on David Hahn's disingenuousness. Don't read if you think this topic has been overdone... but consider yourself warned, and please don't complain and tell me not to be political. Maybe I've missed it before, but it seems that today's article in the Times Colonist was the first time I've seen BC Ferries give an actual dollar amount to what they claim WMG offered to build the Coastals for. Now, I don't know where they get this figure, since Stephen Frasher says WMG was not actually allowed to submit a bid as a 'short list' participant. Frasher says, "There was no local bid because BC shipyards were barred from bidding on this project". So it seems to me that someone is not being truthful. But let's accept that WMG's bid was indeed, as BC Ferries claims, $130 million above that of Flensburger. That wouldn't really surprise me, given that Flensburger has a state of the art facility and can churn new boats out like pop tarts. WMG clearly thinks they could have built the vessels, but not having the same facilities or the recent work record of large newbuilds, their cost would have been higher, and timeframe longer; although the latter is of no consequence as BC Ferries could simply have kept the old Vs sailing for a few months longer. We sent $450 million to Germany; there was not a penny of benefit to the BC economy. Can anyone seriously make the argument that an extra expenditure of $130 million would not have come back, and more, in the benefit of employment, taxation, improved shipbuilding infrastructure, and ancillary benefits to our economy? If the Liberals had had the guts to make a political decision to fund the difference- to keep the work in BC- the net cost, assuming a premium of $130 million, would have seemed like a bargain. But no. The only thing that mattered was BC Ferries' bottom line, so the real winner was Flensburger, and the German economy. Penny wise, pound foolish, as the saying goes. David Hahn is still peddling the BS about the shipyards screwing up on the fast cats. He says, "There was a real bad movie made in BC about seven years ago. I feel we're being asked to make the sequel." BC shipyards were not to blame for the fastcats. They built what they were told to build, and I have yet to read a credible engineering expert say that the workmanship was shoddy. The concept was to blame, and the changes to the original plans which put things so horrendously over budget. Hahn is not being honest. I hope Jim Flaherty listens to WMG and refuses to forgive BC Ferries the import duty they paid on the German built vessels, but I'll be astonished if that happens. Hahn has peddled his nonsense so often that the re-telling of the story has become gospel. As has his assertion that what is good for BC Ferries' balance books is good for BC's economy.
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Post by Scott on Jun 12, 2010 22:44:15 GMT -8
The fact that the ferries were built in Germany and not BC is more the BC government's fault than anything. BC Ferries shouldn't bother getting political about it (as Neil's quotes seem to suggest they are). Blaming BC shipyards for the Fastcat fiasco is a joke. Like Neil said, the boats were built fine, it was the whole idea and planning behind it that was flawed, mainly through government interference. Ironically that's a probably a big reason we have the "private" BC Ferries today.
Now today, we have a government that pretends that it is totally hands-off BC Ferries. When it comes down to the cost, I wouldn't blame BC Ferries (as a private corporation) for going with the safest and cheapest proposal for them. That's a business decision, and they really don't have a mandate for investing in the BC ship-building economy or creating jobs for our province's workers. But the Liberal government was so determined put on a show that they were not meddling in BC Ferries affairs that they let all that investment go to Europe. Imagine all the long term benefits of keeping that money in BC for $130 million dollars. Even if it was double that, I think it would be worth it. But no, let $450 million dollars go to Germany. A few years later, there's no problem spending $450 million dollars for a new retractable roof for the BC Lions and Whitecaps.
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Jun 14, 2010 14:58:16 GMT -8
I'm a nationalist. In my opinion build it, if it’s expensive who cares. If the Government has to specially train people to do the work, so be it. Let’s stamp a maple leaf and "Made in Canada" on it and be proud of what we have accomplished. We built the Spirits, and the Fastcats, who says we can’t rebuild and do it again. A guy can dream.... right?
Neil: I like they way you think. The smart people out there say that for every job in industry 10 more support jobs are created like stores, services, business, home trades etc. If the government were to foot the extra 130 million to keep the work in BC we would have had massive economic and social gains from it.
John: Again, I like your comments as well. I personally know 4 gentlemen that worked on the Fastcats in some respect. Two were engineers working for CFI and the other two were welders. The engineers have spoken nothing but praise for the workmanship that went into the ships by our local trades. One was a nay say’er from the start and was subsequently fired early on in the project. The other stayed till the end and says he is still proud of the work he did, just not what he was told to do. The other two were welders working on the ships themselves. The one was experienced aluminum welder and trained more welders while the other was an experienced steel welder trained to weld aluminum by CFI. They both say they were very proud of their work and the time they spent working on the ships, and were quite disappointed that all their work was wasted. One now is a welding teacher at BCIT, and the other is working the tar sands in Alberta.
I just don’t see how long term having Germany build our ships is economically feasible. Now BCF is saying they are going to have trouble finding available dry-dock time for ships, they are thinking of sending refit work to the states and they will need more ships sooner or later. Maybe they have kicked themselves in the bottom by abandoning our local industry and letting it degrade even further. It is really to bad what has happened to BC shipbuilding, we have the power to do great work, we just don’t have the support.
Shipbuilding gets screwed into a double standard if you will. Take the new on BC Place the steel is being supplied by Can-Am of Toronto from their plant in Calgalry, the roofing material is from Soprema here in Chilliwack and the labor is from the valley as well. If we can build a retractable roof on a stadium in a place where it rains half the time why can't we build ships. The government needs to tell BCF to feck of and if they want their subsidy they gotta buy local to support our local industry, not foreign markets. From what I've heard its not like Flensberger would have been hard off if they didn't get the BCF contract.
Again, back to the nationalist in me, do it yourself, feel the pride in a honest days work to get a job done yourself.
Cheers,
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 9, 2011 16:31:59 GMT -8
In the 'news story' (news to some of the media, anyway) about David Hahn's retirement, was a quote from Hahn about how building in Germany 'saved' BC taxpayers $60 million.
It wasn't specified if that was on the three Coastals, or all four boats. I don't recall having read that figure before.
If that figure is accurate, it is proof positive of what many of us have always maintained: that all things considered, building here would have done our economy far more good than sending half a billion dollars to Germany.
It may have saved BC Ferries that amount, but you'd have to be out of your mind to think that building three ferries here wouldn't have generated more than $60 million in wages, taxes, infrastructure improvements at shipyards, increased future opportunities at those yards, and other ancillary benefits.
WMG never made it past the long list of contract bidders, but Hahn must have seen a tentative figure in their proposal to have come up with his figure.
Another example of how separating the interests of BC Ferries from the interests of the province as a whole is a very bad idea.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 9, 2011 22:56:18 GMT -8
Ship building is dead in this province, ship yards don't have the people to build big projects like a major route ferry. All the land along the Fraser River is being turned into condos.
There is a ship yard on the fraser that is being shut down been in the same spot for over 50 years I can't remember the name right now. It will be replaced with residential luxury houses.
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Post by gordon on Feb 10, 2011 8:41:01 GMT -8
Could the shipyard at Esquiimalt build a major route ferry, the graving dock can certainly handle a much larger ship than the Coastals ( Goilden Princes)
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mrdot
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Post by mrdot on Feb 10, 2011 9:54:29 GMT -8
:'(it greatly saddens me that the only thing made on the coast now is Bazi&Virk, and the little railway that could! We had a rich heritage at Yarrows, Esquimalt, VMD in Victoria, Burrards N. Van., and a number of other smaller yards, and I often drive by Vito's yard on the Delta riverside where much of the Spirit.s and cgs Sameul Risley among others were built, but we are like Scotland and much of the globe, becomeing only fast food delivery personell! but how can service industry personell employees ever afford the new high end fares required on our new age ferry fleet? :'(mrdot.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 10, 2011 11:17:32 GMT -8
Ship building is dead in this province, ship yards don't have the people to build big projects like a major route ferry. All the land along the Fraser River is being turned into condos. There is a ship yard on the fraser that is being shut down been in the same spot for over 50 years I can't remember the name right now. It will be replaced with residential luxury houses. Thanks for the concise real estate update, but can you perhaps explain why, if BC shipbuilding is dead, WMG has bid on part of the $40 billion navy contract, and why it is that they're shortlisted? mrdot: If WMG gets part of the federal contract, it could lead to a rejuvenation of their infrastructure that could land more ferry work in the future. If they don't... it's the final nail in the coffin for major west coast newbuilding. I hope your tears are premature, but I share your pessimism. Vito's is indeed a sad sight on River Road.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 11, 2011 14:50:30 GMT -8
Ship building is dead in this province, ship yards don't have the people to build big projects like a major route ferry. All the land along the Fraser River is being turned into condos. There is a ship yard on the fraser that is being shut down been in the same spot for over 50 years I can't remember the name right now. It will be replaced with residential luxury houses. Thanks for the concise real estate update, but can you perhaps explain why, if BC shipbuilding is dead, WMG has bid on part of the $40 billion navy contract, and why it is that they're shortlisted? I would cynically say, this is most likely a purely political decision because we're dealing with a federal government that does not have quite as dead a lock on power as the rulers in BC, so they want to make a greater effort to look like they are doing something that will help the country.
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