|
Post by oceaneer77 on Feb 3, 2008 7:36:10 GMT -8
Cosmic rays recent thread on the new B class got me thinking.. if we started fresh.. a whole new fleet how many class of ship would we need.. Obviously in each class the ships can have some differences (example a truck type ship with higher overheads, or having a gulf island ship that is slightly longer/ shorter) but the generally design and mechanics stay close to the same.
So i can up with the following... please feel free to rip this apart as it is only a brain game at present!
Class 1) North Major vessels... single ended, Nor EX type vessel
Class 2) Capital class vessels for Naniamo/Vancouver Victoria New coastal class type
Class 3) Large single deck covered vessels for the Tsa/gulf islands, Comox Pr, and the Chillis route. A mini coastal??
Class 4) Intermediate vessels for Bowen/HSB, Swartz to Salt spring .... (Island Sky type) Class 5) Minor vessels for all other gulf islands. Qunitsa meets Kalokie.
Would only 5 classes cover the fleet?... And are their any runs that have to have a purpose designed ship?
Oceaneer77
|
|
|
Post by Coastal Canuck on Feb 3, 2008 8:47:42 GMT -8
the only problem is, Not all of the boats need to be replaced. for example; the Queen of Cumberland and Queen of Capilano won't need to be retired until around 2036, and the Skeena Queen was built in 1997 so she should be good until around 2040.
|
|
|
Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 3, 2008 10:50:41 GMT -8
this is true, but the quinsam and quintsa are going to be around untill 2028 and 2025 respectively. I see them maybe sticking around longer then their retirement date. so that could mean 5 ships not being replaced right away
|
|
|
Post by oceaneer77 on Feb 3, 2008 11:38:17 GMT -8
I know that some ferries are going to stay.. that was not the thought.. it was if you started with a clean sheet, how many classes of ship would you need
thanks oceaneer77
|
|
|
Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 3, 2008 11:52:44 GMT -8
Well i would agree with some of your classes, this is what i would do...
Class 1) Northern vessels... single ended, Nor EX type vessel
Class 2) Coastal class vessels for Naniamo/Vancouver/Victoria
Class 3) Large single deck covered vessels for the Tsa/gulf islands, Comox Pr, and the Chillis route. B class type or maybe a chilli type vessel (but better to load and better laid out)
Class 4) Intermediate vessels for Bowen/HSB, Swartz to Salt spring, Powell river - Texada, Campbell river - Quadra, .... (Island Sky type)
Class 5) Minor vessels for all other gulf islands. Qunitsa type.
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 3, 2008 15:02:07 GMT -8
I think that the premise for Oceaneer77's post was the hypothetical "IF we started fresh.....".
|
|
|
Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 3, 2008 16:28:35 GMT -8
well i think 5 classes is a possibility but that might be pushing it. The minor routes may need maybe 2 classes of vessels, but i think 5 would be close.
|
|
|
Post by Taxman on Feb 3, 2008 17:55:06 GMT -8
6 Classes:
Northern (Major) Mainland - VI Enclosed/Long-Haul Intermediate Open Decked Intermediate Open Decked Minor "Fortified" Minor (similar fit to the two Ts, QQII, NIP, Nimpkish etc) Could be either single or double ended.
|
|
|
Post by Kahloke on Feb 3, 2008 18:42:27 GMT -8
I think 5 general vessel classes would cover it, keeping in mind that there will be some variations within each class. For example, the Minor Vessel Class could have the same design template, but maybe the vessels slated for the northern, more open routes, get more of a sheltered/protected car deck versus the minor vessels slated for the Southern gulf Islands and/or more protected routes. In the same vein, the proposed large single deck covered class may have a different variation for the Discovery Coast Passage route, which really has its own unique characteristics.
|
|
|
Post by DENelson83 on Feb 3, 2008 22:35:47 GMT -8
In case you didn't catch John H's comment in this thread, here it is again:
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
|
Post by Neil on Feb 3, 2008 22:37:13 GMT -8
I think oceaneer is on the right track here. Can't remember what report it was in, but I recall BC Ferries (or perhaps David Hahn) stating their intention to move eventually to a more standardized fleet of six classes or so. As well, in the '03 CFS Contract, there are several mentions of 60 car vessels for a number of the island routes, as well as a couple of 118 car vessels. Of course, plans change; that Contract also stated that by '08 the 'Capilano would be given platform decks and moved to Saltery Bay- perhaps that idea has been dropped. It will be interesting to see if the Island Sky is the first of several of a new intermediate class.
Also, since BC Ferries owns the plans for the Coastal class, they could churn out more of those, if they choose, even building in Korea if they could get a better price than Flensburger's.
|
|
Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
|
Post by Mill Bay on Feb 3, 2008 22:46:22 GMT -8
This kind of 'standardization' is exactly what we are all afraid of here... A fleet with boring, non-descript barges with RADs and lego superstructures. And they'll gouge to save materials anywhere they can which means open car decks and the barest minimum of covered spaces or actual lounges for the intermediate vessels. In short, a fleet that will go from ugly to Uglier, to UGLIEST.
|
|
|
Post by DENelson83 on Feb 3, 2008 22:46:26 GMT -8
Also, since BC Ferries owns the plans for the Coastal class, they could churn out more of those, if they choose, even building in Korea if they could get a better price than Flensburger's. Heck, I think BC Ferries should build one more Super C from its current plans, and then modify those plans a little bit to add more overheight vehicle capacity for route 30. That could potentially replace the Queen of Alberni.
|
|
Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
|
Post by Mill Bay on Feb 3, 2008 22:51:47 GMT -8
Also, since BC Ferries owns the plans for the Coastal class, they could churn out more of those, if they choose, even building in Korea if they could get a better price than Flensburger's. Heck, I think BC Ferries should build one more Super C from its current plans, and then modify those plans a little bit to add more overheight vehicle capacity for route 30. That could potentially replace the Queen of Alberni. They already have a full cardeck that is completely overheight space a present, although it's clearly set up for platforms at some point. Besides that, the height of the upper cardeck is probably more than enough to clear any SUV and mid-sized cargo vehicle, so they have plenty of overheight capacity right now.
|
|
|
Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 3, 2008 22:57:14 GMT -8
Well as i said in another post, there are suppose to be at least 4 - 60 AEQ ships. These ships are suppose to replace the Tenaka, Tachek, QQ2 and NIP. They will go on the Powell River - Texada route, Port McNeill- alert bay-sointula, Denman - Hornby, and Quadra - Cortes route. They may also make a few spares as well.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Feb 3, 2008 23:08:14 GMT -8
Sorry, I thought I responded in the active thread, not the locked one. I'm a bit confused, but thanks DENelson for reposting it here!
|
|
|
Post by Hardy on Feb 4, 2008 9:44:10 GMT -8
Also, since BC Ferries owns the plans for the Coastal class, they could churn out more of those, if they choose, even building in Korea if they could get a better price than Flensburger's. True as this is, I don't think that price plays in to being the only concern. While it is a major component of the building process, we also have hard evidence (x3) of what FSG can do, and the time periods that they can do it in. If I were running BCFS, and had a competing quote from, say a Korean shipyard, up against FSG for follow-on Coastal boats, and the Korean offer was only say $1.5M/ship cheaper, I'd leave my business where it was earned the first time. That being said, if by some stretch of the imagination, a Canadian yard happened to have the capacity and expertise to build follow-on Coastal boats within a realistic financial framework ....
|
|
|
Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 4, 2008 12:49:59 GMT -8
This is true and i belive we will see more coastal class vessels built in the coming years once the current C's and Spirits are nearing the end of their lives. That being said, this is still a ways off. Also i think we will see at least 2, 185 AEQ Vessels built to replace the B's and maybe even 3. There should also be at least 4, 60 AEQ vessels coming online to replace various minor vessels in the coming years. This really only leaves, what type of ship will replace the Q's, bowen class and K class vessels? I believe we will be seeing either more vessels of the new Island Skye class vessels or possibly more of the older Century class vessels to replace these other ships.
|
|
|
Post by WettCoast on Feb 4, 2008 17:26:43 GMT -8
My thoughts on this topic...
1 - The Coastal class vessels - Everyone seems to be expecting that there will be more than three built. They may, some day, be as prolific as the V/B's of the 1960's - maybe... I expect that it will be quite a few years (maybe five or longer) before more are ordered. By that time there will have been enough experience with the first three of these vessels to know whether they prove to be good designs or otherwise. So what they build at that time may be quite similar, or it may be as different as a Coastal class is from a Spirit class.
2 - Northern vessels - I have said this before and I am saying it again. Due to the very much different needs of the northern routes having three virtually identical vessels makes no sense. On the other hand having one vessel like the NorEx, and two other smaller but similar vessels might work.
|
|
|
Post by markkarj on Feb 4, 2008 21:03:30 GMT -8
This is true and i belive we will see more coastal class vessels built in the coming years once the current C's and Spirits are nearing the end of their lives. That being said, this is still a ways off. Also i think we will see at least 2, 185 AEQ Vessels built to replace the B's and maybe even 3. There should also be at least 4, 60 AEQ vessels coming online to replace various minor vessels in the coming years. This really only leaves, what type of ship will replace the Q's, bowen class and K class vessels? I believe we will be seeing either more vessels of the new Island Skye class vessels or possibly more of the older Century class vessels to replace these other ships. Don't the C-class ships have another 15 to 20 years of life to them, and the S-class ships another 25 or so? BTW: does anyone know where one can see the retirement dates of the current fleet? I know they were out there, but I just can't remember where.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Feb 4, 2008 22:01:38 GMT -8
The ones I have on my old website were from the BC Ferries Coastal Services Contract published in 2003. But they've proven to be quite unreliable.
|
|
Quatchi
Voyager
Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
|
Post by Quatchi on Feb 4, 2008 22:33:11 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 4, 2008 23:40:40 GMT -8
This is true and i belive we will see more coastal class vessels built in the coming years once the current C's and Spirits are nearing the end of their lives. That being said, this is still a ways off. Also i think we will see at least 2, 185 AEQ Vessels built to replace the B's and maybe even 3. There should also be at least 4, 60 AEQ vessels coming online to replace various minor vessels in the coming years. This really only leaves, what type of ship will replace the Q's, bowen class and K class vessels? I believe we will be seeing either more vessels of the new Island Skye class vessels or possibly more of the older Century class vessels to replace these other ships. Don't the C-class ships have another 15 to 20 years of life to them, and the S-class ships another 25 or so? BTW: does anyone know where one can see the retirement dates of the current fleet? I know they were out there, but I just can't remember where. Yes the C's and Spirits still have 20 and 25 years respectively left of life. I was stating that maybe in 10 years we will see orders for more coastal ships placed to replace these ships as they are retired. Now since it is quite some time away even in 10-15 years, we may see the newer coastals, or something similar built at a slower pace because they wouldn't be needed right away like these coastal vessels are!!
|
|
|
Post by oceaneer77 on Feb 5, 2008 19:35:47 GMT -8
This kind of 'standardization' is exactly what we are all afraid of here... A fleet with boring, non-descript barges with RADs and lego superstructures. And they'll gouge to save materials anywhere they can which means open car decks and the barest minimum of covered spaces or actual lounges for the intermediate vessels. In short, a fleet that will go from ugly to Uglier, to UGLIEST Ahhhhh Mill Bay.... I am going into a rant here so please stand by... We want a cost effective fleet that is easy to crew and easy to repair. A fleet that has small inventory of spare parts (engines .. rads ) that are sitting ready to be fitted to the vessels that need them. The thought here was to lower fares by having similar machinery. The original V and Bs all looked the same and were of the same design.. now we have major nostalgia over them. BCFC has every conceivable type of ship and classes of ship that have only one ship! (century for example) And every engine and equipment make out there. this may be fun for us to watch and comment on but the cost of the ferries is sucking the life blood out of the islands. (example Denman island... the elementary school when i left had over 100 students now i think it is at 40.. families can not afford to live on the gulf islands ) And no i don't think the rad barges are the way forward.. they are possibly the most inefficient ships ever. Bending the drive line 90 degrees twice is really a poor way to transmit power to the water. Conventional shafts / diesel electrics/ and Azi pods are the way forward. It is also vital to not build the cheapest ships but to build the cheapest ships to build AND operate. This means using good equipment and making sure that the life time costs of the vessel are worked out before steel cutting. It is normal for the lifetime costs of the ship to be higher than the build costs. A good example here is engine efficiency.. if engine X and engine Y are of the same output (Kw. HP, Rpm) but engine X is 3/4 the price you go for engine x right?? No there is more to the equation.. you need to factor in fuel burn, maintenance, rebuild costs and down time. it may be that engine Y is double the purchase cost of X but in 5 years you end up saving money by buying Y. ok end of rant! and i dont mean to offend you mill bay.. so sorry if i did oceaneer77
|
|
Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
|
Post by Mill Bay on Feb 6, 2008 14:38:47 GMT -8
I was being largely facetious on this point actually... I know that they'll do their engineering properly. I just want to know why the new vessels they seem to be drafting plans for are so hideously UGLY. Just one look at the Island Sky and your eyes start to water. We need another word that can describe these 'things' as being distinctive from the term ship... Barge is an apt description for some of them, but maybe UFO (unidentified floating object) might be more accurate.
|
|