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Post by Balfour on May 5, 2008 11:35:47 GMT -8
I found an interesting editorial in the North Shore News yesterday, and it got me thinking about how great these changes would be and how it would make transit quite attractive. Orient more transit service to highwayBryan Gallagher, North Shore News
Published: Sunday, May 04, 2008With the unveiling of the City of North Vancouver transportation plan and TransLink's new North Shore Area Transit Plan just around the corner, I've been dreaming of a plethora of improvements that should be included. Of the recommendations I've conjured up, two recommendations hold particular importance for improved North Shore transit service. The first has to do with transit on the highway. Slicing North and West Vancouver in half, Highway 1 provides a speedy roadway used by thousands daily. It's despicable that only one bus, the 257 express which meanders from 15th Street in West Vancouver to Horseshoe Bay, utilizes this transit-free freeway. Busses running along the entire highway, effortlessly darting off to make select stops and swiftly rejoining the traffic flow, are a North Shore transit users' dream. There should be a rapid B-line bus service on the highway running from 21st Street in West Vancouver to Hastings Street in Burnaby, stopping at the off-ramps at Taylor Way, Capilano Road, Westview Drive, Lonsdale Avenue, Lynn Valley Road and Main Street. Adding this service would have several desirable outcomes. First, it would help solve the difficulty of travelling east/west across the North Shore on transit. Existing transit on the North Shore is strongly oriented towards north/south travel and the only real east/west transit connection is the notoriously congested Marine Drive to Main Street corridor. Lions Gate Bridge and Iron Workers Memorial Second Narrows Crossing traffic leads to staggeringly long lineups which often grind this main route to a standstill. Adding in hordes of traffic lights and what seems like an endless number of bus stops creates an unbearable transit experience. The new B-line service would take the strain off of the Marine-Main corridor. The introduction of high-speed rapid transit on the North Shore would drastically cut transit travel times for many transit takers. For example, travelling from Central Lonsdale to Hastings Street currently takes one transfer and a 30-minute ride on routes with 30-minute frequencies. If you miss either bus, you are screwed. With a rapid bus, I would predict it would take only 15 minutes with much more frequent service. The longer the route, the greater the time savings. With the entire route taking a little over 30 minutes, having only five or six articulated busses should be sufficient to obtain at least a 15-minute frequency. Also, there's no reason why the route couldn't easily be expanded all the way to the Port Mann Bridge. My second recommendation addresses the dreadful bus exchanges. The last North Shore Area Transit Plan in 2000 mentions improving transit facilities, which includes bus stops and exchanges, but nothing has been done. The Lonsdale Quay and Phibbs Exchange bus loops continue to be sparse, concrete-filled, lonely and depressing places. Nighttime proves to be an especially isolated and even frightening experience. These environments certainly don't make you want to leap from your car to take transit. This proves especially concerning because time spent waiting seems two to three times as long as an equivalent time in motion. Any time stagnantly waiting at pitiful bus exchanges seems to drag on forever, which helps kill the attractiveness of transit on the North Shore. Having modern, comfortable, unsoiled, attractive and safe transit facilities is a part of a high-quality transit service. Many of Vancouver's SkyTrain stations are unique and architecturally stimulating, and Europe's been investing in top-notch transit facilities for years. The North Shore must play catch-up and follow suit. Bus exchanges should be inviting, pleasant spaces. Filling these barren concrete jungles with local art, installing flower pots teeming with ferns and seasonal floral delights at each bus stop, painting interesting designs on the floors, adding faux rivers and ponds, and providing free telephones are a few examples of what could be done to make theses environments bearable. With a little sprucing up, these barren exchange wastelands could evolve into enchanting places to inhabit while waiting for your bus. The best part about this recommendation is that it doesn't require millions in investments; it could all be done with a smidgen of cash from the municipalities and TransLink. Bryan Gallagher is a Business and Geography student at Simon Fraser University. © North Shore News 2008 |
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Post by ruddernut on May 5, 2008 13:02:46 GMT -8
There should be a rapid B-line bus service on the highway running from 21st Street in West Vancouver to Hastings Street in Burnaby, stopping at the off-ramps at Taylor Way, Capilano Road, Westview Drive, Lonsdale Avenue, Lynn Valley Road and Main Street. I would extend it further to the nearest Skytrain station (Rupert?). Another BRT route I had in mind was one that runs from Ambleside, through Park Royal, Lonsdale Quay, Phibbs Exchange, the PNE, Brentwood, BCIT to Metrotown. |
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Post by Mike C on May 5, 2008 13:38:27 GMT -8
Well, ahem Mr. North Shore man, but us folk south of the Fraser are quite neglected also. We have 1 garage serving four areas: STC serves South Delta, North Delta/Newton, East/South Surrey and Langley.
Our bus service is godawful, and with SkyTrain only extending as far as Whalley it forces us in Delta to use buses that cross the river into New Westminster and Burnaby.
Sunday bus service is especially bad. Most routes decrease to hourly service, some routes not even running at all.
Our bus exchanges are attractive places visually, however gangs and mobs terrorize these spaces, and taking transit through Surrey and Whalley is not pleasing.
So don't complain, Jordan, at least you guys have a good, solid, rapid bus service called the 239.
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Post by ruddernut on May 5, 2008 13:54:21 GMT -8
Sunday bus service is especially bad. Most routes decrease to hourly service, some routes not even running at all. Why don't they replace them with half hourly Community Shuttles? |
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Post by Balfour on May 5, 2008 16:16:27 GMT -8
Well, ahem Mr. North Shore man, but us folk south of the Fraser are quite neglected also. We have 1 garage serving four areas: STC serves South Delta, North Delta/Newton, East/South Surrey and Langley. Our bus service is godawful, and with SkyTrain only extending as far as Whalley it forces us in Delta to use buses that cross the river into New Westminster and Burnaby. Sunday bus service is especially bad. Most routes decrease to hourly service, some routes not even running at all. Our bus exchanges are attractive places visually, however gangs and mobs terrorize these spaces, and taking transit through Surrey and Whalley is not pleasing. So don't complain, Jordan, at least you guys have a good, solid, rapid bus service called the 239. NVTC is a much smaller garage the STC, and the 239 is agonizingly slow between 3 and 6 PM (trust me I rode the slowest section between Lonsdale Quay and Phibbs Exchange today and I still missed my 212). NVTC is so small it cannot handle it's own work. Burnaby operates one of our two Lonsdale Corridor routes (the 229) and rush hour trips on the 210/211/290/292. Now I don't know if STC is at capacity so yes you have a point that it is quite strained for buses. |
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Post by Coastal Canuck on May 5, 2008 16:40:28 GMT -8
NVTC is so small it cannot handle it's own work. Burnaby operates one of our two Lonsdale Corridor routes (the 229) and rush hour trips on the 210/211/290/292. Now I don't know if STC is at capacity so yes you have a point that it is quite strained for buses. The only reason Burnaby operates the 229 is so the route can have a low floor bus on it. |
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Post by Balfour on May 5, 2008 17:46:50 GMT -8
NVTC is so small it cannot handle it's own work. Burnaby operates one of our two Lonsdale Corridor routes (the 229) and rush hour trips on the 210/211/290/292. Now I don't know if STC is at capacity so yes you have a point that it is quite strained for buses. The only reason Burnaby operates the 229 is so the route can have a low floor bus on it. That's another reason I missed. To be more specific, the 229 was also transferred to Burnaby to free up more buses for 10 minute frequency at rush hour on the 239. |
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Post by Mike C on May 7, 2008 8:45:10 GMT -8
Why don't they replace them with half hourly Community Shuttles? LOL... I hope they never ever do that, I hope the Community Shuttles all be destroyed. I'd rather have conventional hourly service than Community Shuttle half-hourly service. I can say that because I used to ride the 318... which no longer exists thanks to the C76  |
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Post by Nickfro on May 7, 2008 11:48:57 GMT -8
Having read the North Shore News article at the top of this thread, I have a few thoughts and feelings on this: The Upper Levels Highway thought could work as follows: Start at Park Royal and go up Taylor Way to the highway and make stops at most freeway interchanges (where physically possible). It would cross the Ironworkers and make a couple of stops on the Vancouver side, terminating at one of the skytrain stations. An articulated bus would probably be required for this. There is no need to start at Caulfeild, 21st or 15th in West Van, as each of those areas has a current bus route that can funnel everyone down to Park Royal. Create a bus lane for peak hours along the lower route. It's a bit of a stretch because there are very few locations that would be able to create an extra lane for such a service, but if possible, this would greatly help. The sprucing up of exchanges: do you think that would actually make a difference? No. Plants and flowers would get trampled on and can't survive in such an environment. Just look at the shrubs that they put in at the south end of the Lions Gate Causeway. . .they lasted less than a year! Lonsdale Quay couldn't have any of this because there is no natural light there. Faux rivers and ponds. . .where does this guy think he is?? Free telephones. . .the 25 cent payphones are good enough, but those are disappearing due to the fact that most people have cell phones! Security would be the only realistic solution for trying to make transit exchanges a safer place. Just my thoughts. . .interested to hear views from others.  |
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Post by ruddernut on May 7, 2008 11:49:36 GMT -8
Why don't they replace them with half hourly Community Shuttles? LOL... I hope they never ever do that, I hope the Community Shuttles all be destroyed. I'd rather have conventional hourly service than Community Shuttle half-hourly service. I can say that because I used to ride the 318... which no longer exists thanks to the C76 What's wrong with them? There's obviously not enough traffic to justify using the big bus if they can't run them anymore than on an hourly schedule. And even then, I bet the buses run something like 10% full. |
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Post by Balfour on May 7, 2008 12:08:56 GMT -8
Having read the North Shore News article at the top of this thread, I have a few thoughts and feelings on this: The Upper Levels Highway thought could work as follows: Start at Park Royal and go up Taylor Way to the highway and make stops at most freeway interchanges (where physically possible). It would cross the Ironworkers and make a couple of stops on the Vancouver side, terminating at one of the skytrain stations. An articulated bus would probably be required for this. There is no need to start at Caulfeild, 21st or 15th in West Van, as each of those areas has a current bus route that can funnel everyone down to Park Royal. Create a bus lane for peak hours along the lower route. It's a bit of a stretch because there are very few locations that would be able to create an extra lane for such a service, but if possible, this would greatly help. The sprucing up of exchanges: do you think that would actually make a difference? No. Plants and flowers would get trampled on and can't survive in such an environment. Just look at the shrubs that they put in at the south end of the Lions Gate Causeway. . .they lasted less than a year! Lonsdale Quay couldn't have any of this because there is no natural light there. Faux rivers and ponds. . .where does this guy think he is?? Free telephones. . .the 25 cent payphones are good enough, but those are disappearing due to the fact that most people have cell phones! Security would be the only realistic solution for trying to make transit exchanges a safer place. Just my thoughts. . .interested to hear views from others. For Exchange improvements, I think they just need some face-lifting. Phibbs could use shelters that are more modern looking and have better lighting. All that Lonsdale Quay needs is brighter lights and something to make the ugly ceiling over the waiting platform more modern. |
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Post by Mike C on May 7, 2008 17:48:35 GMT -8
What's wrong with them? There's obviously not enough traffic to justify using the big bus if they can't run them anymore than on an hourly schedule. And even then, I bet the buses run something like 10% full. You "bet" ? How does this sound: you actually ride the route, with the C74 and C75, then report back to me. Let me know how full , and what condition, the bus is in. There's nothing quite like riding a bus that's jam packed, 20 feet long and rattles like 'hell. It's an entire new experience in itself: there's nothing like it. The buses they run on the Community Shuttle routes are meant for running little old ladies to Bingo or church groups to various activities, and they are NOT meant for conventional transit. The original community shuttles, established in 2004, are already being retired. That's a 4 year lifespan. For comparison, the average diesel bus lasts 20, and a trolley 25. Community Shuttles.... what a joke. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 7, 2008 21:29:10 GMT -8
What's wrong with them? There's obviously not enough traffic to justify using the big bus if they can't run them anymore than on an hourly schedule. And even then, I bet the buses run something like 10% full. You "bet" ? How does this sound: you actually ride the route, with the C74 and C75, then report back to me. Let me know how full , and what condition, the bus is in. There's nothing quite like riding a bus that's jam packed, 20 feet long and rattles like 'hell. It's an entire new experience in itself: there's nothing like it. The buses they run on the Community Shuttle routes are meant for running little old ladies to Bingo or church groups to various activities, and they are NOT meant for conventional transit. The original community shuttles, established in 2004, are already being retired. That's a 4 year lifespan. For comparison, the average diesel bus lasts 20, and a trolley 25. Community Shuttles.... what a joke. So it's a problem with the workmanship of their build. Nothing wrong with the concept. I believe those original community shuttle buses you speak of had previous uses as airport shuttles, refurbished for (trial?) use as public transit vehicles. Here's an idea: Run big conventional buses during peak hours, and community shuttles during slow hours, to match the load. |
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Post by Balfour on May 8, 2008 7:22:50 GMT -8
Here's an idea: Run big conventional buses during peak hours, and community shuttles during slow hours, to match the load. The already do that on some Community shuttle routes in Surrey and Coquitlam. I agree that the concept of Community shuttles is good, however they don't need to use these a cutaway van. They could use a 30' Low Floor bus instead. I know Winnipeg uses these on some of their routes and on their "Spirit" free service in downtown Winnipeg. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 8, 2008 7:28:30 GMT -8
I agree that the concept of Community shuttles is good, however they don't need to use these a cutaway van. They could use a 30' Low Floor bus instead. I know Winnipeg uses these on some of their routes and on their "Spirit" free service in downtown Winnipeg. Can those buses be legally driven with a Class 5 licence? I think that is exactly the reason why the community shuttles were chosen--so that they can easily find qualified personnel to drive them at low wages. |
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Post by Balfour on May 8, 2008 8:42:16 GMT -8
I agree that the concept of Community shuttles is good, however they don't need to use these a cutaway van. They could use a 30' Low Floor bus instead. I know Winnipeg uses these on some of their routes and on their "Spirit" free service in downtown Winnipeg. Can those buses be legally driven with a Class 5 licence? I think that is exactly the reason why the community shuttles were chosen--so that they can easily find qualified personnel to drive them at low wages. They would likely require Class 2 with Air. The current shuttles require a Class 4 license. Thankfully Coast Mountain Bus Company provides all the training so you can apply with your Class 5 license. If you get accepted for driver training then you need to get your Class 2 or 4 learners. CMBC provides air-brake training. Once you graduate you will have a full privilege Class 2 or 4 license. |
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Post by Coastal Canuck on May 8, 2008 14:36:46 GMT -8
Can those buses be legally driven with a Class 5 licence? I think that is exactly the reason why the community shuttles were chosen--so that they can easily find qualified personnel to drive them at low wages. They would likely require Class 2 with Air. The current shuttles require a Class 4 license. Thankfully Coast Mountain Bus Company provides all the training so you can apply with your Class 5 license. If you get accepted for driver training then you need to get your Class 2 or 4 learners. CMBC provides air-brake training. Once you graduate you will have a full privilege Class 2 or 4 license. The driver's in Coquitlam also need to have Natural Gas training-provided my CMBC |
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Post by Mike C on May 8, 2008 15:08:01 GMT -8
I believe those original community shuttle buses you speak of had previous uses as airport shuttles, refurbished for (trial?) use as public transit vehicles. We bought them all new, except for 3, which were previously HandyDART vehicles. Here's an idea: Run big conventional buses during peak hours, and community shuttles during slow hours, to match the load. That is exactly what Communist Shuttles were meant to avoid: The use of standard sized buses on small community routes. That is the entire point of the concept, for most routes. If they were smart, which they are most of the time (I have to give credit where credit is due), then they would leave all the conventional routes be (except for those that have PROVEN to be underused for a long period of time), and run 30' Low-Floor buses. (What Jordan mentioned above.) I believe New Flyer and Orion both offer those type of buses. New Flyer Urban Transit: www.newflyer.com/index/urban_transit_busesOrion VII: www.orionbus.com/orion/0-867-584010-1-584123-1-0-0-0-0-1-10595-584008-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html |
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Post by Dane on May 17, 2008 11:03:18 GMT -8
Well, ahem Mr. North Shore man, but us folk south of the Fraser are quite neglected also. We have 1 garage serving four areas: STC serves South Delta, North Delta/Newton, East/South Surrey and Langley. This comes off as a "we have it bad too, so fix us first argument." I have no tolerance for these types of arguments, which municipal politicians make all the time as it simply stalls out projects. While certainly nothing in this article is going to happen just because you feel service in your area is poor isn't a reason to negate or minimize the importance of improvements where you don't live. Translink is a giant organization - things happen in more than one place so having a close minded opinion on the organization's ability to carry out more than one set of improvements is narrow minded and a waste of time for all those concerned. The North Vancouvers are also actually quite well served for local transit which has been discussed heavily in this thread but does lack any effective cross town solutions to get from A to B. With the exception of a potential but now questioned extension of the 255 to Capilano College there is absolutely no express service in North Vancouver, and only one in West Vancouver, the 257. Surrey is currently enjoying one of the most rapid transit improvements the area has seen in a long, long time and over three years there will be over 100% service imporvements in many routes; it may not be what you like but being arrogant or unappreciative to changes certainly doesn't help the planning process. Also, STC is undercapacity, so why are you complaining abut one garage? The geographical area it serves is substanially less then some other facilities. So don't complain, Jordan, at least you guys have a good, solid, rapid bus service called the 239. We do not have rapid bus service. In Vancouver, tradition rapid bus service is operated via the "B Line" branding (learn more here-> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B-Line_%28Vancouver%29#B-Line_services) Currently Metro Vancouver has three B-Lines, the 97,98, and 99 with another Vancouver crosstown to be in servive post Canada Line and potentially service to SFU as well although some zoning and street enhancment issues are standing in front of this service (to be numbered 95). Express bus services are also run throughout the Lower Mainland. On the North Shore only the 290 and 292 meet this criteria, and even then they just sneak under the wire as really they only miss one stop, it just happens to be a very long one! The 239 is a conventional, local service bus with a high frequency. --- As Jordan said earlier, the 229 is not operating on low floors just for the fun of it, rather it was a necassary decision to increase service on the 239's headways. NVTC did not and will not in the foreseeable future have capacity for more buses. Due to failures in elected leadership in the District of North Vancouver the currently North Vancouver facility will be open through at least 2010. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 17, 2008 23:33:23 GMT -8
Well, ahem Mr. North Shore man, but us folk south of the Fraser are quite neglected also. We have 1 garage serving four areas: STC serves South Delta, North Delta/Newton, East/South Surrey and Langley. This comes off as a "we have it bad too, so fix us first argument." I have no tolerance for these types of arguments, which municipal politicians make all the time as it simply stalls out projects. The problem is they're too sprawled and spread out to pool enough resources for efficient and effective transit service. If only those people didn't insist on the luxury of living out in the burbs and having their own back yards, they too might be able to afford to have a Skytrain built within walking distance. |
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Post by kylefossett on May 18, 2008 3:13:27 GMT -8
This comes off as a "we have it bad too, so fix us first argument." I have no tolerance for these types of arguments, which municipal politicians make all the time as it simply stalls out projects. The problem is they're too sprawled and spread out to pool enough resources for efficient and effective transit service. If only those people didn't insist on the luxury of living out in the burbs and having their own back yards, they too might be able to afford to have a Skytrain built within walking distance. If only those people could afford the $750,000+ house price of the city then they could have transit. come on these people live in the fraser valley and the suburbs because they are teachers, doctors, nurses, police officers, firefighters. the types of people needed to work in these areas. not everybody who lives in the burbs commutes to the city but most of them do commute somewhere to get to work. Transit improvements are needed anywhere west of chilliwack with the majority being surrey, delta, langley. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 18, 2008 9:08:59 GMT -8
If only those people could afford the $750,000+ house price of the city then they could have transit. Can they afford $400,000 condo prices? Densification, people. |
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Post by kylefossett on May 18, 2008 9:55:42 GMT -8
If only those people could afford the $750,000+ house price of the city then they could have transit. Can they afford $400,000 condo prices? Densification, people. Can they raise 2 kids in a condo and have a yard for the kids to play in? |
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Post by ruddernut on May 18, 2008 9:58:39 GMT -8
Can they afford $400,000 condo prices? Densification, people. Can they raise 2 kids in a condo and have a yard for the kids to play in? Call that a foregone luxury. There are public parks for the kids to play in. |
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Post by Dane on May 18, 2008 10:04:26 GMT -8
The problem is they're too sprawled and spread out to pool enough resources for efficient and effective transit service. If only those people didn't insist on the luxury of living out in the burbs and having their own back yards, they too might be able to afford to have a Skytrain built within walking distance. If only those people could afford the $750,000+ house price of the city then they could have transit. come on these people live in the fraser valley and the suburbs because they are teachers, doctors, nurses, police officers, firefighters. the types of people needed to work in these areas. not everybody who lives in the burbs commutes to the city but most of them do commute somewhere to get to work. Transit improvements are needed anywhere west of chilliwack with the majority being surrey, delta, langley. Average per capita wages in the City of North Van are lower than a majority of the eastern Metro Van cities that have been discussed here, and there is also considerably more densification. The City of North Van already represents one of the highest transit riderships in the Translink network. |
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