Neil
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Posts: 7,170
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Post by Neil on Oct 30, 2008 12:56:29 GMT -8
Granville Island Water Taxi begins their schedule Bowen service on Saturday, with free runs all day, many of which are now fully booked. This will be pretty stiff competition for Coastal Link. Since Capt. Shaker's operation announced it was getting into the Bowen market, GIWT reduced their opening fares from $20 one way, $35 return, to $15 and $25 respectively. Coastal Link is doing $20 return, but they are starting with one (or two?) round trip a day, while GIWT is doing 16. Seems a shame, two companies duelling over one small market when so much of our coast has no passenger service, but, for now, Bowen is the beneficiary of Gibsons' harbour policy. GIWT is also doing scheduled False Creek - Whistler service for the Olympics. www.giwt.ca/Bowen_Island_Express.html
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Post by Billable Hours on Nov 1, 2008 23:16:25 GMT -8
Honestly, it will be a challenge for both CLF and GIWT to survive this year let alone plan for 2010.
I wish them both good luck. But I wish one was at Bowen and one at Gibsons so they would not need to compete on price, that will only hurt both, and neither needs that as they both already have a steep hill to climb with BC Ferries around.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 8, 2008 11:30:22 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 8, 2008 11:37:57 GMT -8
Thanks Neil.
The blogger, and one of the comments on the blog indicates the expected commuter strategy of taking BC Ferries from Bowen (the no-pay direction) and then taking the private ferry home to Bowen.
It will be interesting to see if there ever is any sort of unholy-alliance between BC Ferries and a private-company re this issue. Some sort of agreement re a fare-share between the private-company the BCFS.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 8, 2008 12:11:55 GMT -8
I find it hard to imagine BC Ferries co-operating with either of these companies on fares. Just doesn't seem to be their style. Still, if there gets to be a decent number of commuters using the new services, 'freebies' returning from Bowen could get to be an issue. Might BC Ferries demand proof of fares at Snug Cove? Doubtful. There are probably some people who get to Salt Spring by other means, and take the Skeena Queen back.... maybe BC Ferries just doesn't care as long as the numbers are small.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Nov 8, 2008 13:13:06 GMT -8
The plot thickens or the pot continues to simmer or whatever cliche you think is appropriate. Three strategies come to mind if I was BCFC.
Let's assume that BCFC is indeed an independant business and can pursue other business opportunities within its mandate.
1) Continue to operate with business as usual and keep your pricing as competitive as possible and protect your market share. Keep your eyes and ears tuned to what the competitors are doing. You hope that competition weakens one or both of them.
2) You make a deal with one or both to keep a closer view on them, know more information and maximize the potential for both. This financial benefit of this can't be very advantageous to BCFC. It would have to be more informational and to prevent an errosion of the customer base.
3) You let the market develop and when it is more mature and proven buy out one or both of the operators to launch a new business venture for BCFC. You would only do this if they are seriously hurting your volume, and/or you think there is considerably more business available that the larger capital of BCFC will allow the company to take full advantage of it.
There has to be room for water passenger ferries on a larger basis than has been possible in the past. People are even busier than ever and time is a crucial factor for many people. While fuel prices are on a hiatus currently from what has been recently, they are going to go back up over time. So a service that saves time and money is going to appeal.
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Post by landlocked on Nov 9, 2008 9:06:17 GMT -8
What is most telling about all this is the behaviour of the consumer and their feelings about how the services are marketed.
1) I believe Mr. Corrigan summed up his thoughts when he said "As it is the price doesn't make it the preferred way to travel, but when circumstances warrant, like last night when I'm travelling on someone else's dime and cabbing all around the lower mainland, it will be the way I get home." So, how many times does it suggest he will actually USE the service.
2) One/way - two/way travel. A private operator competing with built in two way fares have been the challenge for many before, and the demise. Consumers in Puget Sound would take the Aqua Express one way and the free State ferry the other. They got as good as it gets without spending an appreciable amount more.
3) Revenue sharing...not likely. BCFS could care less about the few that they may be carrying for no revenue. It probably costs considerably less than to let the few ride free than worry about collecting a second toll at Bowen...just more administration.
The only way you'd see any cooperation between two companies would be two government entities, ie BCFS and Translink. Back when West Coast Express (yes the train service) was looking at running a passenger only ferry service to Bowen, they in fact appeared to have the blessing of BC Ferries. Now, there were wins for both companies, such as a) As demand reduced to Bowen, buses could be replaced and redeployed by Translink. b) If demand was reduced on the ferry, particularly at peak time then BCFS could redeploy the Capilano and perhaps replace her with a smaller vessel. Now, if they did that, they'd be in a much better profit picture on the run, as something like the Bowen Queen probably burns about 1/4 of the fuel than does the Capilano, and think about the differences in the capital cost.
Unfortunately, it looks to me like there are too many ferries chasing after too few customers on Bowen Island.
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Post by Dane on Nov 9, 2008 22:12:04 GMT -8
WCE couldn't have been looking at the boat service, perhaps people from that sub-company but it's simply not feasible for them to do so; they don't have the right type of people, budget, or internal knowledge to look at that sort of service. Perhaps it was branded as being them for some reason, but it would be the SCBCTA/GVTA as appropriate.
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Post by landlocked on Nov 9, 2008 22:51:30 GMT -8
Sorry Dane, but it was WCE. Their president felt that they were perfect to operate a ferry program as it would be fully subcontracted. That was, and continues to be their model.
Having said that, it doesn't mean that the proposal didn't ruffle feathers within the organization, as it surely did. Needless to say, it didn't get off the ground.
You sound surprised. How about a PCL/CFI project to build and operate two high speed cats in the 40-45 mtr range from Steveston/or Downtown Vancouver to Brentwood/Butchart?
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Post by Dane on Nov 10, 2008 14:07:48 GMT -8
Well I am lucky enough to employed by the group so I'll inquire how that was made possible. I won't be in for about three weeks though.
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Post by landlocked on Nov 16, 2008 9:50:55 GMT -8
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Post by Billable Hours on Nov 25, 2008 20:16:54 GMT -8
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Neil
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Posts: 7,170
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Post by Neil on Dec 1, 2008 13:36:56 GMT -8
Well, I guess they won't be handing out layoff notices on the Queen of Capilano anytime soon. GIWT reports on the Bowen Island forum that they are carrying an average of three passengers a run (2700 odd, in 90 something runs), which they say they are happy about. CLF has not posted their counts.
It's amusing reading the back and forth between the two companies. GIWT mentioning 'the accident', and hastening to add that it wasn't them- and Peter Green pointing out GIWT's passenger counts and slyly mentioning a 'Greener' way to travel. Everyone, oh, so polite, but making it quite clear that it is indeed, game on.
Almost brings to mind those battles between CPR and the PSN, circa 1909.... except that I doubt a race between the Coastal Runner and one of GIWT's mighty mites would capture the public's imagination quite like the Princess Victoria and Chippewa duelling across Juan de Fuca.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 1, 2008 18:44:19 GMT -8
Well, I guess they won't be handing out layoff notices on the Queen of Capilano anytime soon. GIWT reports on the Bowen Island forum that they are carrying an average of three passengers a run (2700 odd, in 90 something runs), which they say they are happy about. CLF has not posted their counts. 2,700 pax divided by 90 trips = avg of 30 passengers per trip. Almost brings to mind those battles between CPR and the PSN, circa 1909.... except that I doubt a race between the Coastal Runner and one of GIWT's mighty mites would capture the public's imagination quite like the Princess Victoria and Chippewa duelling across Juan de Fuca. Let me guess, you would have been cheering for the Chippewa? Just kidding. ps: my retired-engineer friend who worked the QPR & QotN told me about a similar short-sprint between the Queen of the North & the Columbia. The 'North won, and the Columbia pulled a muscle.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2008 18:57:28 GMT -8
When Royal Sealink began service to Victoria and later to Nanaimo their intent was not to compete with BC Ferries but to provide a needed service. Both CLF and GIWT are likely doing the same. It's great that they are both willing to put their money into these ventures and a little friendly competition is to be expected and encouraged. If they are successful and possibly able to expand it will be a huge benefit to the travelling public especially those who are tied to BC Ferries. Congratulations to CLF and GIWT!
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 1, 2008 19:21:16 GMT -8
2,700 pax divided by 90 trips = avg of 30 passengers per trip. ps: my retired-engineer friend who worked the QPR & QotN told me about a similar short-sprint between the Queen of the North & the Columbia. The 'North won, and the Columbia pulled a muscle. I forgot a zero. 900 odd trips, 3 passengers per. I've always wondered why the Alaska ferries were given a relatively slow power plant, considering the distances they have to travel. Now I see that GIWT has added a 5:00pm departure- fifteen minutes ahead of CLF- from the same dock CLF uses, with a stop in North Van on the way to Bowen. No truth to the rumor they've hired a Somali tail gunner to keep the Coastal Runner well astern, but boy, the Battle for Bowen is getting interesting.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 14, 2008 20:07:58 GMT -8
There were a couple of posts from new member(s) tonight, on the Coastal-Link thread that are aimed at GIWT, and I'm moving them here. I've also moved my response to their posts. Here is my thread-herding: ============================ Billable hours seems you only like to bash one company I wonder why that is? Maybe you represent a competitor or one of its affiliates? Seems very strange that all you can talk about is Coastal Link Ferries? Sorry you also talk about Granville Island Water taxi but you only praise them. Makes me wonder about you actual intentions??? You also like to talk about Transport Canada regulations but only when they suit your needs which seems to be to try and bad mouth or abuse CFL. Well maybe you could tell us about GIWT and the regulations they have to operate under? Are their vessels certified to be used on the run from Granville Island to Snug Cove? What certification or training do their operators have or required to have? Maybe you could put your skills to work on these interesting questions?? But I'm willing to bet you wont because the answers will not suit your obvious agenda??? When you talk with GIWT, ask him about the amount of people he still owes money to when he shut down his first aid training company based in north vancouver. I believe he actually moved to alberta or manitoba to avoid the collectors and only returned a while ago. Hopefully his business plan is better than from his previous BC company! When you talk with GIWT, ask him about the amount of people he still owes money to when he shut down his first aid training company based in north vancouver. I believe he actually moved to alberta or manitoba to avoid the collectors and only returned a while ago. Hopefully his business plan is better than from his previous BC company! First off, welcome to both "Yoda's" to this here forum. I'm assuming that you're not related, and that the 2nd Yoda isn't suffering from a chronic lack of creativity in choosing a user-name. ;D Both Yoda's posts (man, I love the intrigue when 2 users register within an few hours of each other, using similar names. Reminds me of the "age of Kyle") allude to the Granville Island company. Gentlemen, we have a separate thread on this same page for "Bowen Island Express". I think you put your posts into the wrong thread here, unless this is just blatant push-back at member Billable Hours. (if it is, take that someplace else, off the forum). If it is re legit concerns about GIWT, please use the GIWT thread, called "Bowen Island Express". Now, re the 2nd Yoda's comments re the GIWT's owner and past business dealings re the first aid training company. If you're going to post a provoking teaser like that, tell us more and give us some specifics (ie a newspaper article or court judgment, etc), again on that separate thread. You know how we all love facts and verifiable stuff, and most of us here are ready to reject anything smelling of spin, no matter which side it's coming from. Thanks guy(s). Good luck in training your younglings.... See you on that other thread........(note to others: please make any responses to the GIWT comments on the other thread, the one that I've mentioned 2 times already in this here post ;D) So, for anyone who wants to respond to these posts, this here Bowen Express thread is the place. PS: we eagerly await the revealing of the rumoured "Third Yoda", a sure sign of the dawning of the age of the Aquabus....
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Post by Northern Exploration on Dec 14, 2008 20:22:09 GMT -8
Just when you think the forum is cruising to routine - a sudden turn comes. Thankfully the explosion of Yodas isn't resulting in actual Yoda-like wording in the posts. I have to admit I tried to do it in the above statement and failed miserably so gave up .
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Post by Fenklebaum on Dec 14, 2008 21:39:30 GMT -8
PS: we eagerly await the revealing of the rumoured "Third Yoda", a sure sign of the dawning of the age of the Aquabus.... Hm? -------------- According to the scuttlebutt that's been circulating through the crews of both the Granville Island Ferries and the Aquabus Ferries, GIWT dropped off & picked up several passengers down at the Science World jetty about a week ago. This has apparently raised the hackles of both ferry owners, as they have a negotiated licensing agreement with the City of Vancouver for the exclusive commercial use of all ferry docks in False Creek. We've been getting calls at GIF ever since this operation started up asking about our 'ferries to Bowen'. The water taxis dock, for all intents and purposes, at the False Creek Ferry dock. The very name GIWT itself is seen by both ferry outfits as capitalizing on our operations' public exposure. Google Granville Island Water Taxi; the first hit you'll get is FCF/GIF's page. Following GIWT's is Aquabus' page. There is a growing and uneasy feeling among both ferry crews that GIWT is preparing to directly compete with both established companies in the False Creek commuter market. Fenk, disquieted
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Post by Billable Hours on Dec 14, 2008 21:54:43 GMT -8
Yoda 1
If you have been reading, I am a lawyer not a water taxi operator. In fact I think you can see by a number of my posts I ask a lot of questions of those who are in the business. I don’t know the details, but there are many on this forum who do. Also I think I have made it quite clear I would never invest in either of these businesses, or any other trying to offer private marine transportation in BC. The risks and competition from your own government make it a crazy place to put money, but there seems to be a new one born every day wanting to throw money away in this way. I can assure you, I have no vested interest other than the safety of the unsuspecting public.
Based on what I have read about Ihab’s past and present operation I have very serious concerns that at some point there will be a serious injury. I just think the public should know the past and present details.
As for GIWT and Kelli Turner, I have no idea who this fellow is and what his past is. What I do know is he is operating 12 passenger vessels, which means a significantly reduced set of regulations. EG he does not need a life raft, nor does he need a TC certified captain. Quite frankly I don’t know if he has either even though he does not need either.
In many ways Peter has brought onto himself the public scrutiny as he has responded. Kelli has not. We don’t really know a thing about Kelli. There is a lot about both Peter and Ihab, in media and on government pages. I think it has been pointed out a few times, BCF does not respond on a public forum for good business reasons, CLF made a choice to respond and it has not been a good ride for them. So far GIWT has not responded on this forum, and so far a smooth ride, but it looks like it coul dget a bit bumpy.
The Coastal Runner is a new and I would say unproven design, which has its own set of risks. The water taxies used by GIWT are Eagle Craft a BC builder with many years of experience and the vessels are well proven.
On the only rough weather day we have been able to observe these two operators operate, CLF choose to risk it (close to if not over the line of their vessel) and they had an incident. GIWT cancelled their sailings and instead of dragging passengers across the harbour in extreme weather they took them to Horseshoe bay and called a cab. In my mind the GIWT choice was a better choice. Demonstrating as an operator Kelli seams so far to have a safer view of how to operate. I would strongly emphasise the term “so far” we have only seen these two compete for six weeks, not a long time.
Those are the key points I have seen between them.
Monday looks like a new test for both of them, lets see what happens, the forecast is for cold and wind.
Yoda 2
Now like Flugal I would love to have details. Keep in mind Peter Green made the first reference to Ihab being involved in a service back east under the name of Shaker Cruise Lines. If Peter had not made the reference I may not have thought it was the same Ihab Shaker. In the same vein I did do a Google search of Kelli Turner after reading your post. Yes there seems to be a Kelli Turner in the First Aid Business. From what I could read, he still is, problem with a lot of web pages who knows if they are up to date. Also I don’t know if it is the same Kelli Turner, and I would not be able to be sure without some proof. So I, like Flugal Horn, would like you to back up your statement with some information that can be independently verified. Also if he went bankrupt, well he does not owe any of those debts anymore, that is what bankruptcy is all about, wiping out debts. Not a nice thing but legal. Same with Ihab he no longer owes any money back in Toronto.
As you seem to be one of those that were owed money, I can understand. I just had a client stiff me for $10,000 it does not feel good. You never do get over those things. I still remember the time when I was in high school and I had $5 stolen from my locker. Crazy that I still remember that but that was the first time I had any money taken from me, I will never forget.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 15, 2008 8:44:41 GMT -8
Now like Flugal I would love to have details. To clarify my intention: - I don't really care about this matter of someone's story about a first aid training company. - What I do care about is someone posting something vague and accusatory on this forum, and not backing it up. - So, since the 2nd-Yoda started by posting comments about the first-aid thingy, he should go further and clarify/explain/support his comment. - So, for the sake of principle, if Yoda911 thinks this issue is forum-worthy, he should post some more objective details of the matter, and why it is relevant to the Bowen Island Express ferry topic. In the absence of this from Yoda911, most of us regular forum users are ok with rejecting / forgetting / moving-on from this first-aid comment. So I don't really care about the story (if there is one). But I'm wanting to keep this thread on-track re things that actually pertain to this Bowen Island Express taxi service. I think what these recent Bowen posts show is that the GIWT company likely has it's own issues, just like most other transportation companies. However, I like how they were quiet about their Bowen Island service, until they were ready. None of that rolling-startup-date stuff, they just announced it once they were ready to go. I like that.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Dec 15, 2008 10:01:19 GMT -8
Yoda 1 If you have been reading, I am a lawyer not a water taxi operator. In fact I think you can see by a number of my posts I ask a lot of questions of those who are in the business. I don’t know the details, but there are many on this forum who do. Some questions for you then. Smaller vessel - without some safety features of the larger boat without a TC certified Captain. Why doesn't that raise your hackles? Why the double standard? So what about the builder of the Coastal Runner? Fly by night operator? The TC certified the Coastal Runner - are you saying TC doesn't know how to identify risks to a new vessel? Does a "proven builder" ever build a ship to a clients design with flaws? How sure are you that the wave heights you are using from the site you were given are accurate for the route CLF uses. Or are they just an indicator of potential? You have just said above the 12 passenger vessel has a different set of standards. And obviously it likely would handle differently. Why do you now assume because one didn't operate both shouldn't have? What wave heights can the 12 passenger handle? Based on your reasoning an operator of a Cessna and his choices for conditions for flying should dictate what the operator of a 737 should do. Why do you use normal language for GIWT and language such as "dragging" for CLF?
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Post by yoda911 on Dec 15, 2008 19:40:07 GMT -8
What the name of the different versions of the company and the website is that he used to run is not relevant. If you go for a job interview today, one definite approach is to ask about how you reacted to specific situations in the past. The theories all support that past actions speak to future performance.
As some of us know the past actions, we believe we know the predicted response when bills accumulate. That's all. Any advertising of a company name is good advertising, especially when one forgets the reason the name sticks in your head.
And regarding the "similarity" to your local ferries names in the harbour, that was also similar practise to his other past business plans. You cant really blame him, can you? why not get some free momentum and close name recognition from your competitors? If your competitor creates an uproar, that is more free advertising and you eventually apologize and promise it is all a misunderstanding. really.
Also past practise, although blogs and forums werent as big back then, any chance to post information or fax out something - it will be done, even though it is the same info repeatedly. again just getting the name out there.
I just saw all this water taxi stuff the other day and just dont see how the finances work to have enough boats on standby for charters, to take kids to camp, take people to their oil tanker, be ready for a movie set AND continue to run a scheduled service. I have no idea how much a boat costs but guess it would be $4000 and then needs staff. If you have to rent it for a one year contract, you take a financial hit until you get busy or customer service takes a hit until then.
So, again I would be using my Mastercard for all my purchases. but that's me and I have a bias.
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Post by Fenklebaum on Dec 15, 2008 20:08:06 GMT -8
You cant really blame him, can you? Yes I can, actually. The city licenses the ferry docks for the simple reason that its already too crowded in False Creek with the two operations that are on the go now. The number of times that tempers have flared between skippers in the past would make your head spin. GIWT started up, appropriated Granville Island Ferries' name, website traffic and main terminal, and is apparently now using exclusive ferry docks in the Creek without a license. Should Aquabus Ferries Ltd. or Granville Island Ferries Ltd., the two companies that built the operation from the 'waterline up' as it were, have to pay expensive license fees when GIWT doesn't? why not get some free momentum and close name recognition from your competitors? If your competitor creates an uproar, that is more free advertising and you eventually apologize and promise it is all a misunderstanding. really.I know lying is a standard business practice, but I wasn't aware that it was acceptable and palatable to the public until now... I have no idea how much a boat costs but guess it would be $4000 and then needs staff. Boats are expensive. Those two Eaglecrafts were custom built. Rumour has it he paid close to $200,000 for each boat. Fenk, poor
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Post by Billable Hours on Dec 15, 2008 21:04:13 GMT -8
Yoda911
I agree with your belief that past action is a good indicator of future action. You clearly have some very negative experience with Mr. Kelli Turner. But you are not willing to make it clear to us, what that is, or provide a link that supports your claims. Some on this forum call my posts regarding CLF as “vague Innuendo” but there are links to TSB pages that detail past actions of Ihab Shaker. Peter Green actually pointed out it was the same Ihab Shaker, so there is no doubt that the TSB reports are talking about the same person. Also a TSB report is a clearly unbiased third party. Also there are links to Shaker Cruise Line Bankruptcy records on government websites. Again pretty verifiable and unbiased. And there are many links to media reports where reporters are simply quoting either Ihab or Peter. All pretty unbiased and verifiable.
Now all you have said is really vague innuendo. As Neil pointed out on the CLF thread my statements are not actionable. Well I have been careful and stayed clear of making actionable statements.
You say the names of the past companies are not relevant, well they are because then we can verify if what you say is true. It sure sounds like the gloves are off in the Granville Island region of the harbour. It also sounds to me like Yoda 1 is from one of the competitors and Yoda 2 is from the other. Gosh and people question my motives.
Back to one question from Yoda 1, re the lower level of regulation for 12 passenger water taxies vs the level of regulation for CLF. I did not write the rules. I also cannot say GIWT is breaking any rule because for them it is not there to break. I also have no evidence of past safety concerns with Kelli Turner. So what should I say, should I make it up?
I would agree the public should know the regulations for 12 passenger water taxis are significantly lower than for CLF. From what I know basically water taxis are unregulated, passenger ferries are. So it is really up to the passengers to determine if GIWT is a safe operation as well. If the two Yoda’s (Competition) have any specific points they think the public should know, then put it forward and we can all read it. Yoda 2 has just said he is a bad guy, but what did he really do? Hey if you want me on his case give me something to work with... Peter has provided me with sooo much.
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