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Post by SS Shasta on Jun 4, 2009 13:08:35 GMT -8
Would a reservation system actually work on a busy commuter route such as Edmonds-Kingston or Seattle-Winslow? Certainly reservations make sense on the SJI International Route and the special situation at Keystone-Port Townsend. Are the busy commuter routes another issue?
It seems like reservations would create more problems than they solve on these routes. Would regular commuters have to make reservations every time they travel? What would happen if they got stuck in traffic or worked later than expected? Seems like tempers would flare when those with reservations moved to the front of the line.
At the risk of sounding "old fashioned" I still feel that adding a third vessel at busy times on these routes makes better sense.A few years back, a third vessel (MV Walla Walla) was added during the summer to Seattle-Winslow. Budget cuts forced this to be discontinued, but I wonder what kind of comments were made about the extra service? We must remember that reservations don't move people and vehicles, ferry vessels do!
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Post by Kahloke on Jun 4, 2009 13:56:50 GMT -8
I know WSF wants to pilot a reservation system on the Edmonds-Kingston crossing. It will be interesting to see how that goes, because I, too, have my doubts about reservations on the central and south-sound commuter routes.
I think reservations could work at Anacortes-SJI because you have a much longer wait time between sailings versus the other routes. We know it works for Sidney (has for years), and it seems to be working at Port Townsend, but that is a special case right now with only the 1 small ferry operating there. Still, I don't see why they can't keep the reservation system going even after the new Island Home-type vessels enter service.
WSF tried the 3rd vessel at Bainbridge 1 year before I moved over to that side so I can't comment from my experience, but from what I heard, that didn't work out too well from a traffic management standpoint on the island. Apparently, there were perpetual backups along the length of Hwy 305 because there wasn't enough time between landings to clear the traffic. I guess if you lived in Winslow, it would have been great having the 3rd boat, and you wouldn't have been impacted by the traffic too much. For off-islanders (ie. those living on the Kitsap Peninsula), it was a big issue.
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Post by EGfleet on Jun 4, 2009 16:18:29 GMT -8
I know WSF wants to pilot a reservation system on the Edmonds-Kingston crossing. It will be interesting to see how that goes, because I, too, have my doubts about reservations on the central and south-sound commuter routes. I think reservations could work at Anacortes-SJI because you have a much longer wait time between sailings versus the other routes. We know it works for Sidney (has for years), and it seems to be working at Port Townsend, but that is a special case right now with only the 1 small ferry operating there. Still, I don't see why they can't keep the reservation system going even after the new Island Home-type vessels enter service. WSF tried the 3rd vessel at Bainbridge 1 year before I moved over to that side so I can't comment from my experience, but from what I heard, that didn't work out too well from a traffic management standpoint on the island. Apparently, there were perpetual backups along the length of Hwy 305 because there wasn't enough time between landings to clear the traffic. I guess if you lived in Winslow, it would have been great having the 3rd boat, and you wouldn't have been impacted by the traffic too much. For off-islanders (ie. those living on the Kitsap Peninsula), it was a big issue. You're right on the mark with the third boat at Winslow. It was an unmitigated disaster as far as traffic was concerned, with 305 being a solid line of cars clear across the island. My understanding is that because of those backups, the idea of a third boat ever making an appearance on that route again has been dropped. Until they make 305 four lanes across the island (read: when heck freezes over) the current infrastructure cannot handle a third boat. Any discussion of a third vessel anywhere else is a moot point--there are no extra boats and won't be for a good five years. |
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Post by Kahloke on Jun 5, 2009 8:02:42 GMT -8
Any discussion of a third vessel anywhere else is a moot point--there are no extra boats and won't be for a good five years. The only place I think a 3rd vessel would make sense is Edmonds-Kingston, simply because of the overwhelming volume of vehicle traffic that goes through there (except for this last month, of course  ). Now that the plans for relocating and expanding the Edmonds Terminal have been shelved, I'm not sure the existing infrastructure, as it is now, can support a 3rd vessel, but in the future, who knows what will happen? |
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Post by fargowolf on Jun 5, 2009 8:26:23 GMT -8
I know WSF wants to pilot a reservation system on the Edmonds-Kingston crossing. It will be interesting to see how that goes, because I, too, have my doubts about reservations on the central and south-sound commuter routes. Well... BC Ferries accepts reservations for up to 25% of the available vehicle space on the boat. That results in 25% riders being left to wait for the next boat, which displaces another 25% on the boat after that PLUS the 25% that would be displaced because of the reservations for that sailing. See how fast this is adding up? IF that was to happen on the WSF Fleet, it would be a disaster of unmeasured proportions. Seattle, Bremerton, Bainbridge, would be the worst affected as traffic would literally grind to a halt because the terminals would be over capacity and would back up onto area streets. *note: I'm not too certian of the traffic volume on the Kingston-Edmonds route* In both examples The best solution is to do away with/not implement such a system. |
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Post by Barnacle on Jun 5, 2009 18:03:58 GMT -8
As opposed to taking 100% of the first-come, first-served traffic and the same amount is left on the dock, just in a more democratic fashion rather than the elitism of reservations? Your supposition is a tad leaky--just a tad, though. If 125% of the boat's capacity consistently shows up for each sailing, then--purely from a statistical standpoint, mind you, not a socio-economic one--it doesn't matter whether there's a reservation system or not. Example: 100-car vessel has 125 spaces' worth of vehicles in line. Does it matter, from a traffic standpoint which 25 cars get left behind? No. There's still 25 cars left, no matter if they're rich or poor. Your argument assumes that if the reservation holders didn't hold reservations, they wouldn't be there at all, which isn't true. They'd just have more money left in their wallets and less temper left in their heads. The leftover 25 cars will add up for each trip, but not because of the reservation system. In your scenario it's simply a matter of demand outstripping supply. Those 25 cars who paid for a reservation are still going to be there in line, stacking up trip after trip. I understand the social implications of a reservation system being elitist. I just prefer to think of it as an "Impatient B_____d" fee. ;D I also think it would be a huge pain to implement and monitor--we'd have to add more terminal staff to monitor it, and that alone would probably consume any profits. |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Jun 6, 2009 17:59:28 GMT -8
David Moseley’s return | Ferries chief back on Whidbey to talk reservations
David Moseley, the assistant secretary for the state Department of Transportation’s Ferries Division, explains and defends the controversial proposal for a vehicle reservation system at a meeting in Clinton on Tuesday.
Brian Kelly / The Record
By BRIAN KELLY
South Whidbey Record Editor
Today, 8:00 AM
CLINTON — There are nearly 280 million reasons why Washington State Ferries wants to start a reservation system for travelers on state ferries.
But the one that’s foremost in many minds on the South End is not among them.
“We’re not interested in doing this to make people’s lives miserable,” David Moseley, the assistant secretary for the state Department of Transportation’s Ferries Division, told an attentive audience at a ferry meeting Tuesday.
“We’re interested in doing this to make the system work better and to make people’s lives better,” he said. “And if we can’t demonstrate that, we’re not going to do this.”
The meeting earlier this week followed a boisterous meeting in late February, where Moseley faced an irate crowd of more than 200, with many annoyed at the proposal by Washington State Ferries to start a reservation system. Residents warned the system would make it harder for people to get on and off Whidbey Island, and would discourage tourists and hurt the local economy.
This week, residents continued to stress their opposition to the idea.
Moseley, however, said that without a reservation system in place, the state would have to expand the holding areas for ferry users at terminals across Puget Sound so travelers would not continue to clog up streets in ferry communities.
The price tag for expanding parking areas is estimated to top $280 million.
The reservation system is needed, Moseley said, “so we don’t have to build larger boats and larger terminals.”
Though the meeting touched on other critical issues for the state ferry system — the state’s long-term plan for ferries, a potential 2.5-percent increase in ferry fares, and the need for a permanent and stable capital revenue source to bring new vessels online and pay for the upkeep of the fleet and terminals — the proposed reservation system was the issue residents wanted to talk about. Most left the meeting after talk about reservations wrapped up.
Moseley spent much time trying to tamp down concerns about the proposal.
He repeatedly recalled the last meeting in Langley, where islanders lined up to lambast the idea and he was presented with a petition signed by 500 people opposed to the reservation system.
“I heard you at the Langley meeting. And the Legislature heard you at the Langley meeting,” he said. “That’s why the Legislature said to us, come back, show us how you do it, then we might let you do it.”
Earlier this year, the state Legislature gave the go-ahead to Washington State Ferries to launch a “pre-design study” on a pilot vehicle reservation system.
Ferry officials were told to come back to the Legislature during the 2010 session with the results, and lawmakers would then decide whether to fund implementation of a pilot program.
“What the Legislature has asked us to do is a pre-design study that will look at the technology and the capacity needs of what a vehicle-reservation system would look like for Washington State Ferries.
“They haven’t authorized us to do anything,” he said.
The Legislature must be convinced the system will work once the study is finished, Moseley added.
“At that time, the Legislature would then decide: We don’t think you’ve done enough, you’ve got to go back and do some more; or we don’t think this is a good idea; or we want to implement it on that specific route, and let’s see how it works out before we would implement it anywhere else.”
Moseley said each route would be studied intensely before a reservation system would be implemented. And before that, Washington State Ferries would seek the advice of a “community partnership group” formed for each route.
The pilot project will be based on the Edmonds-Kingston run.
“It’s a very complex route that will encompass a number of things where we have to demonstrate we can resolve these issues before we would ever want to commit it to the system,” Moseley said.
The Edmonds-Kingston route has a commuter base, as well as the heaviest vehicle usage in the system.
It also has a heavy commercial base and a heavy recreational base, Moseley said.
He said the Legislature is taking a cautious, step-by-step approach.
“Prove one step, maybe we’ll let you take another one. You prove the next step, maybe we’ll let you take another one,” he said.
Until the Legislature signs off on the idea, reservation systems will only be used in the places where they already exist: the Keystone-Port Townsend and Anacortes-Sidney routes.
Moseley also said the reservation system would not change the priority-loading policies that give preference to people with medical emergencies, or carpools and vanpools.
Room would be left onboard for people who don’t have reservations, he said, though the actual percentage would not be known until the pre-design study is done. It was likely that different sailings would have more or less room set aside for travelers without reservations.
“You wouldn’t envision having a reservation system for the times when you don’t need it,” he said.
Even so, South End residents at this week’s meeting remained skeptical. Some pointed out that travel to and from the island is spontaneous, and locals know when they can drive down to the Clinton terminal and not face a long wait. One said conducting a study when so many ferry users oppose it was “a waste of taxpayers’ dollars.”
“That’s what concerns me,” added Jean Wilcox.
“It is miniscule compared to the money we would have to spend if we had to expand holding areas at our terminals,” Moseley replied.
Island County Commissioner Helen Price Johnson said she was encouraged to hear that Washington State Ferries is giving each route an independent look.
“Each run is very different,” she said. “I’m not convinced that it would make sense on our run.”
Price Johnson, however, said she has heard from people in other counties who support the idea.
“Just as loudly as the folks in Clinton are saying ‘Don’t do this,’ they’re saying, ‘Please, would you do this.’”
“We don’t hear that so much on our island,” Price Johnson said.
Washington State Ferries will hold additional public meetings in the next two weeks in other ferry communities.
The final version of the state’s long-range plan for the state ferry system is expected to be released on June 30.
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Post by Kahloke on Jun 6, 2009 19:29:48 GMT -8
I can't think of a single Central or South Sound run where reservations will be beneficial. Still, I am willing to be open-minded about this, so I will reserve final judgment until after the Edmonds-Kingston pilot project, but I will be amazed if it meets expectations.
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Post by SS Shasta on Jun 7, 2009 16:19:12 GMT -8
OH WOW!! Just what we need; another "pre design study" with more public funds wasted. Hope the Legislature has the courage to say "NO." This sounds like a good reason not to attend these citizen advisory meetings. Minds are made up and locked into place regardless of what citizens have to say. 
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Post by EGfleet on Jun 7, 2009 18:29:22 GMT -8
OH WOW!! Just what we need; another "pre design study" with more public funds wasted. Hope the Legislature has the courage to say "NO." This sounds like a good reason not to attend these citizen advisory meetings. Minds are made up and locked into place regardless of what citizens have to say. Who do you think came with the funds for it in the first place? You do realize that WSF can't do ANYTHING with the legislature's approval, right? |
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Post by Barnacle on Jun 7, 2009 18:42:10 GMT -8
I don't think the legislature really have taken into consideration that WSF will need extra personnel to monitor the process, control the line-jumpers, etc... I personally think it's a bad idea, but I've been proven wrong before. Anyway, it's supposed to be an idea to generate additional revenue. Think of it as a voluntary taxation that isn't coming out of your pocket. ;D
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jun 7, 2009 22:13:19 GMT -8
Well us taxpayers have not given you many options on how to make that revenue so unconventional ideas come to light in desperate economic times.
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Post by Barnacle on Jun 8, 2009 7:43:22 GMT -8
Ain't that the truth. I'm mildly saddened by how many people have forgotten about initiative 695, which kicked off the whole process ten years ago.
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Jun 8, 2009 16:44:33 GMT -8
Ain't that the truth. I'm mildly saddened by how many people have forgotten about initiative 695, which kicked off the whole process ten years ago. You might be mildly saddened by it, I however think that every Dumb@$$ that voted for that should never be aloud to vote again. They didn't read what they were voting on just the BS from Timmy boy. Now we are paying the full price of I-695 because of them. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 16:12:55 GMT -8
For the Port Townsend-Keystone route, does anyone know where reservations get put on the vessel compared to drive-ups? Thanks.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Aug 10, 2015 16:45:56 GMT -8
For the Port Townsend-Keystone route, does anyone know where reservations get put on the vessel compared to drive-ups? Thanks. Have you been to the Port Townsend terminal and watched them load the vessel at some point? Observing may be of help since it sounds like you are from there. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2015 17:53:28 GMT -8
For the Port Townsend-Keystone route, does anyone know where reservations get put on the vessel compared to drive-ups? Thanks. Have you been to the Port Townsend terminal and watched them load the vessel at some point? Observing may be of help since it sounds like you are from there. I have been to the terminal, but never watched them load. |
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Post by Kahloke on Aug 10, 2015 19:11:35 GMT -8
Speaking of reservations, I observed something interesting on Friday when we were heading to Orcas. I will preface that by saying this past weekend was one of the busiest, if not THE busiest, weekend for traffic heading to and from Orcas. The Orcas Fly-In, Library Fair, Doe Bay Fest, and some weddings all contributed to this weekend's crowds on the island. Oh, and my old class from Orcas was holding a reunion, which is why I went up there. Anyway, I was on the 15:45 sailing Friday afternoon from Anacortes to Orcas, and to my surprise, they did not completely fill the vessel. How can this be, on what is one of the busiest weekends out of the year, and on a Friday in particular? I think what is happening is that people see that the reserved spaces on the ferry is full, and they decide not to risk going standby, because they think they don't have a chance of getting on. So, they aren't getting many standby's, and the vessel sails without a full load. It's an interesting byproduct of the reservation system. I, for one, really like being able to reserve a space, but obviously things still need to be worked out.
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Post by Barnacle on Aug 10, 2015 19:17:42 GMT -8
Speaking of reservations, I observed something interesting on Friday when we were heading to Orcas. I will preface that by saying this past weekend was one of the busiest, if not THE busiest, weekend for traffic heading to and from Orcas. The Orcas Fly-In, Library Fair, Doe Bay Fest, and some weddings all contributed to this weekend's crowds on the island. Oh, and my old class from Orcas was holding a reunion, which is why I went up there. Anyway, I was on the 15:45 sailing Friday afternoon from Anacortes to Orcas, and to my surprise, they did not completely fill the vessel. How can this be, on what is one of the busiest weekends out of the year, and on a Friday in particular? I think what is happening is that people see that the reserved spaces on the ferry is full, and they decide not to risk going standby, because they think they don't have a chance of getting on. So, they aren't getting many standby's, and the vessel sails without a full load. It's an interesting byproduct of the reservation system. I, for one, really like being able to reserve a space, but obviously things still need to be worked out. People make multiple bookings because they aren't sure which sailing they'll catch, then cancel within the window when they get closer? I'm on the Lopez/Harbor shuttle, and we're seldom less than full. |
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Post by Kahloke on Aug 10, 2015 19:22:13 GMT -8
Speaking of reservations, I observed something interesting on Friday when we were heading to Orcas. I will preface that by saying this past weekend was one of the busiest, if not THE busiest, weekend for traffic heading to and from Orcas. The Orcas Fly-In, Library Fair, Doe Bay Fest, and some weddings all contributed to this weekend's crowds on the island. Oh, and my old class from Orcas was holding a reunion, which is why I went up there. Anyway, I was on the 15:45 sailing Friday afternoon from Anacortes to Orcas, and to my surprise, they did not completely fill the vessel. How can this be, on what is one of the busiest weekends out of the year, and on a Friday in particular? I think what is happening is that people see that the reserved spaces on the ferry is full, and they decide not to risk going standby, because they think they don't have a chance of getting on. So, they aren't getting many standby's, and the vessel sails without a full load. It's an interesting byproduct of the reservation system. I, for one, really like being able to reserve a space, but obviously things still need to be worked out. People make multiple bookings because they aren't sure which sailing they'll catch, then cancel within the window when they get closer? I'm on the Lopez/Harbor shuttle, and we're seldom less than full. You're right about that one. I forgot about the folks making multiple reservations. Islanders have certainly figured out how to "game the system". But, sometimes it works. My return sailing back to Anacortes on Saturday evening (the 17:15 departure leaving Orcas) was completely full, and they absolutely nailed it for Shaw. It appeared to me that they got every car from Shaw on, and there was not one single space left on the car deck, so that was a job well done. |
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Post by Kahloke on May 7, 2017 12:23:10 GMT -8
I had a "first" with the reservation system this morning. We're heading up to Orcas on the weekend of May 20th & 21st, so I booked my reservation for going TO Orcas on the 20th just after 7:00am yesterday morning, when the 2 week reservation window opened. I was planning to do the same this morning for our return trip on Sunday, the 21st. I logged on to the WSF reservation site at 7:05am only to find that the sailing we wanted (the 12:25) was already fully reserved for that 30% block. Now I know this is probably the most popular sailing of the day, and it is a Sunday, but to be completely booked within 4-5 minutes, at 7am on a Sunday morning? That kind of shocked me. It surprised me that so many people would be at the ready at 7:00am, pulling the trigger on reserving a space on a ferry. Maybe I'm just naive, I don't know. I figured I would have at least 5 minutes to do it, but apparently not. I have one more shot at booking reservations 2 days before the sailing. I will make sure THIS time that I am at the ready at 7:00am sharp, and hope that I actually get a spot in that last 30% block. If not, I guess we'll move on to Plan B, whatever that may be.
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). Now that the plans for relocating and expanding the Edmonds Terminal have been shelved, I'm not sure the existing infrastructure, as it is now, can support a 3rd vessel, but in the future, who knows what will happen?
