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Post by Dane on Jul 5, 2009 13:51:40 GMT -8
Last Thursday BCF held its Southern Sunshine Coast FAC Meeting. This is the first time I have had computer access since, but I did attend, and it was 205 minutes of jam packed information. There's actually a lot of interesting things to report. I have created some general areas, in no particular order. Safety & Crew LevelsMembers of the FAC brought forward WSF's designation as an inland ferry service, allowing considerable higher ratio's of passengers to crew per sailing. The desire was to have BCF pursue this designation, but it was pointed out that if anything TC is going toward more stringent regulations, rather than allowing less crew. The operations manager, who spoke well, also pointed out TC's current philosophy that "a sea is a sea is a sea," so it's not particularly important where the vessels are sailing in justifying crew levels in the Southern part of BC. In calendar year 2009 BCF has performed 7 marine rescues. The Experience CardI have always disliked the name and loved the savings. Obviously some of BC Ferries management agree as the term "Experience Card" was never really used; rather, "E Card" was said. Took me a minute to figure out what was going on. The average balance on a card right now is $118, and only 5% of issued cards are inactive. On April 1, 2010, the minimum balance will likely rise to $75-80 for vehicles, and the pax only minimum load will likely disappear. Island SkyThe Senior Master of the Island Sky was at the meeting and spoke very briefly, and seemingly genuinely positively about the vessels performance on Rte 7. Much as Neil and Scott reported with respect to the AGM, a brief "ships cannot be built in BC," speech began saying the vessel cost WMG far too much, and it was 8 months late on delivery to BC Ferries. Passenger/Vehicle TrafficThis was an interesting area where it was shown that last fiscal year there were drops in traffic throughout the system. We're all rather familiar with this. Insofar as Routes operating out of Horseshoe Bay, since April of this year, traffic appears to have actually increased again to fiscal '07 numbers (or alternately, a 2% increase over May/June 2008). This is seen as positive, and there are hopes the trend will continue. Langdale Terminal ConstructionIn Fall of this year the wingwall on the East side of Berth 1 will be replaced. It has been obviously damaged for quite some time. Actual improvements are delayed, and will not happen for at least five years. Demand for improvements, other than an overhead walkway, appear to be low - however a policy absurdity has developed as a result. MARSEC regulations are creating justification for BCF to close the Langdale float (Rte 13) as it must be treated as a "fair paid area." However, the new terminal building which five years ago was scheduled to open this Fall is not in place so it won't be a fair paid zone; the new building would be like a major terminal where it cuts you off from the rest of the terminal. Currently at Langdale the building is right at the berths. All in all its fairly absurd, and BC Ferries "we don't make the rules" defence was tiring, when later in the meeting they were happy to make rules that left students paying more to take the ferry despite compelling opposition from the community, and law. Route 2A comment was made that the CR wasn't economical to run. Gee, that person must have been from this forum. Anyways, in a rather brilliant moment I wish I could have filmed and posted in one of the various anti-Coastal threads on the forum the operations manager outlined that the CR, in the summer, was more profitable to BCF than the Queen of Oak Bay, and in the winter was about equitable in costs. The reason sailing will be canceled out of Departure Bay this Fall is not due to vessels. Rather, traffic patterns, and the ability to close Departure Bay 2 hours early are the justification. Horseshoe Bay is open to 11pm regardless due to Route 8. Thus, they get a better bang for their lack of buck. This lead to the best part of the meeting where a resident outlined why the CR should be on Route 3. This leads to... We're better than youSunshine Coast residents seriously believe they have a right for priority loading and unloading in Horseshoe Bay. They had a lot of difficulty justifying their position. There were some other interesting areas of discussion, including summer scheduling which I will post on later, but my free 30 minutes of computer time is coming to an end
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jul 5, 2009 15:34:53 GMT -8
Thanks for that report, Dane. The explanation about the cancelled route 2 sailings makes sense, although it won't satisfy the suspicions of the Coastal critics.
BC Ferries stand on the Langdale wharf sounds like nonsense- like they're hiding behind regulations to justify what is a very un-neighborly act. As a Keats property owner pointed out at the AGM, there is far more danger from ferry-small boat interaction at Horseshoe Bay than there ever is at Langdale, so BC Ferries safety concerns are very much exaggerated.
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Post by Dane on Jul 7, 2009 18:49:53 GMT -8
Route 3 Summer Schedule
There was much discussion over the need for a 530pm (or so) commuter sailing for individuals wanting to get back to the Sunshine Coast after a day's work. Obviously this sailing would be from Horseshoe Bay to Langdale. When the turn around time of Rte 3 is expanded for the summer they loose the 530pm sailing. However, for three week days that have the Queen of Coquitlam doing a 550pm, which is felt to be satisfactory. The other two weekdays need a commuter sailing in the view of the FAC, and this is something that does seem to be in serious consideration for the summer 2010 schedule. BC Ferries said to run the Coquitlam on the two days for a commuter sailing would lead to a loss of $250,000 over the summer schedule.
An earlier sailing than 620am also seems to something the FAC desired to have, however they also want it at about 530am which is more or less impossible. Discussion around this was less intense than the evening commuter sailing, and there seems to be an understanding a solution is unlikely.
Over height Charges
BC Ferries, as posted on this forum among other places, has had some bad PR regarding the use of overheight charges since they're generally illogical. The CFO, who is not particularly tact, said that overheight charges as they exist now will be gone for April 1, 2010. Length will more likely be the qualifier, with the standard vehicle rate applying to a certain pre-set size, and then the commercial rate being used for additional footage. Another proposal was also brought forward. They were not particularly well presented, and as a result were difficult to follow and report on. Look for some public consultation on this in the coming months - what that actually means I have no clue.
School Group Rates
There is considerable concern that BC Ferries has essentially locked Sunshine Coast schools in place. While certainly this is a bit of an exaggeration there was considerable support to the idea of even a surcharge for 'regular' passengers to subsidize students. This issue will grow in momentum, I think, and Clarke (CFO) was quite evasive to the issue, making BCFS look to be on the defensive.
The food
Breakfast was large size muffins with a choice of coffee, tea, or water. Lunch was large size panini (tuna, chicken, veggie) with split pea soup and the same beverages.
Having attended two AGM's in the past I would say on the whole this meeting was more informative on 'lower level' or 'operational issues', but less so on the "big picture," by design. I will attempt to visit future FAC meetings as I found it a valuable and educational experience.
Route 13's FAC was right after, which I would have loved to watch (drama time), but I had cut enough work for the day.
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Post by Mike C on Jul 8, 2009 19:21:26 GMT -8
Clarke, to me, resembles this man here, on the left: He's definitely more of a businessman than a community-advocate. I got those kind of vibes from the AGM late last month, and I'm getting them again from Dane's post. I don't think they understand that their services are the lifelines of communities, and that they can't really justify charging such unreasonable fares for the essential links that they provide. However, I will point out that it's easy to blame BC Ferries, and a lot of the Sunshine Coast are doing so for all the wrong reasons. I have a bitter taste towards people who believe they deserve "special treatment", and like most ferry-served communities, the Sunshine Coast feels compelledto have priority over everyone else. Regarding the student rate, it seems to me that it is incredibly unfair for BC Ferries to be charging such outrageous fees for travel that is mandatory by law. The Route 3 schedule I give about a 5/10. The frequency is nice, but I can tell there was no real thought put into it. The Queen of Coquitlam I think should have a bit more time sailing, and a bit less time in the dock... I mean come on, this vessel was built in 1976, why waste a perfectly brand new ferry just sitting around
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jul 8, 2009 20:24:02 GMT -8
Clarke, to me, resembles this man here, on the left: He's definitely more of a businessman than a community-advocate. I got those kind of vibes from the AGM late last month, and I'm getting them again from Dane's post. I don't think they understand that their services are the lifelines of communities, and that they can't really justify charging such unreasonable fares for the essential links that they provide. We need to cut Rob Clarke some slack. As CFO of BC Ferries, he's not allowed to be a community advocate. His obligation is to look after the financial interests of BC Ferries, taking into account community interests where they can be accommodated without impacting the bottom line. It's just the way the company is constituted. However, I will point out that it's easy to blame BC Ferries, and a lot of the Sunshine Coast are doing so for all the wrong reasons. I have a bitter taste towards people who believe they deserve "special treatment", and like most ferry-served communities, the Sunshine Coast feels compelledto have priority over everyone else. Regarding the student rate, it seems to me that it is incredibly unfair for BC Ferries to be charging such outrageous fees for travel that is mandatory by law. Rather than speak of ferry served communities, maybe it's more to the point to speak of ferry dependent communities. I don't think we're hearing misplaced entitlement, but rather the concerns of people for whom ferry fares and schedules are a big part of getting to school, doctors, work, and their general cost of living. People are probably a bit more strident when they feel that their one dependable connection with the outside world is not a priority with their government or its agents.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 28, 2009 14:19:51 GMT -8
Here's a thread to discuss some items arising from the semi-annual Ferry-Advisory-Committee meetings, for each region. www.bcferries.com/about/public_consult/bcf_facs/I will be looking at the various 2009 minutes, and posting any items of interest. ....another source of info that some of us might find interesting ;D -------------- ps: for items related to other thread discussions, I will post the minute-highlight directly into that specific thread.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 28, 2009 19:17:18 GMT -8
from: Southern Gulf Islands June 15, 2009
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from: Salt Spring Island Ferry Advisory Committee: June 15, 2009
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from North Coast FAC Meeting - July 3, 2009
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 29, 2009 13:21:37 GMT -8
For the most part, these meetings look to be pretty limited in scope. The Ferry Advisory Committees seem to be allowed input just on housekeeping issues.
Amusing to read about the Alert Bay & Sointula meeting, where there was a complaint about the lack of directional signage for the ferry's lounge. Which kind of begs the question, how difficult can it be to find the lounge on the Quadra Queen II? Take the stairs going down, and you're in the engine room, which is a no-no, so that pretty much leaves one alternative...
Most groups only seem to meet once or twice a year, which also attests to the lack of issues that people can bring up.
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Post by Dane on Dec 29, 2009 19:51:49 GMT -8
I have only attended two FAC metings, but both were very detailed in the outlook of BCF's operations and plans. Perhaps I just attend the 'right' meetings, though?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 29, 2009 21:50:54 GMT -8
I have only attended two FAC metings, but both were very detailed in the outlook of BCF's operations and plans. Perhaps I just attend the 'right' meetings, though? There's no problem with BC Ferries sharing information regarding what they're planning to do. David Hahn, Rob Clarke and co. are quite adept at telling the public how things will be. The minutes from all these meetings indicate, though, that the range of issues which BC Ferries is open to public direction on is pretty limited. Hornby's representative, Tony Law, has always been quite complimentary regarding the company's willingness to listen to local input. Some people might question whether participation in such a limited 'consultative' process just constitutes being co-opted by a senior partner who is going through the motions. At times, BC Ferries seems genuine about finding solutions to local issues, like the Langdale dock. I don't have a hard opinion on the whole FAC process. I'm just a bit skeptical.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 29, 2010 20:52:44 GMT -8
Highlights from Northern Routes FAC, Nov.13, 2009 meeting:
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Post by lmtengs on Jan 29, 2010 22:29:00 GMT -8
Thank God! Buying a 30 year old vessel would just be downright insane! I can't believe they even looked into it! Does anyone have a link to a photo or any information about this vessel they were thinking of purchasing?
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Post by Curtis on Jan 30, 2010 0:34:32 GMT -8
Thank God! Buying a 30 year old vessel would just be downright insane! On the contrary, compare the 1976 built Cowichan and Coquitlam being mid-life upgraded in 2003 and 2004, they were nearly 30 at that time. The MLUs (so they said) prepped them for another 20 years of service. The same would apply to this ship in many ways, just with a 10 year difference. 20 years would be good time for a vessel at that age. Besides, buying a replacement ship and having to upgrade it would increase BCFS' newbuild debt. So until the BC NDP brings BCFS back to public status (when pigs fly?...hopefully not) or maybe if Private BCFS goes bankrupt and the government has to bail them out to continue halted service, we'll probably stay with the current fleet and be riding a Coastalized Chilliwack and other vessels until they are well over 50.
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Post by lmtengs on Jan 30, 2010 14:07:47 GMT -8
On the contrary, compare the 1976 built Cowichan and Coquitlam being mid-life upgraded in 2003 and 2004, they were nearly 30 at that time. The MLUs (so they said) prepped them for another 20 years of service. The same would apply to this ship in many ways, just with a 10 year difference. 20 years would be good time for a vessel at that age. Besides, buying a replacement ship and having to upgrade it would increase BCFS' newbuild debt. Yes, but even so, it would still be an old vessel, almost (or more than) halfway through it's life. It would cost less in the long run if they bought a fairly new vessel and kept it for the next 40 years then buying an already aging vessel now, keep it for 20, then buy or build another. Once again, let's cross our fingers When would BCF be coastalizing her? Sometime in the next 5 years?
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Post by Curtis on Jan 30, 2010 14:18:54 GMT -8
When would BCF be coastalizing her? Sometime in the next 5 years? I'd think they would sometime in this period. She still has her Dogwood carpets, so I assume they'll eventually update her. Only time will tell though. (Edit) So don't take my word for it.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 15, 2010 11:48:36 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 15, 2010 11:55:36 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 17, 2010 7:23:05 GMT -8
Chemainus/Thetis/Kuper Ferry Advisory Committee Date: July 7, 2010
(note: this is the meeting that you get, when you click on the link for the Denman/Hornby FAC meeting. nice..... ;D)
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- this item caught my eye, because I'm currently reading a book called "All we say is ours" about the Haida and their land claims.
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Northern Sunshine Coast Ferry Advisory Committee Date: June 30, 2010
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Salt Spring Island Ferry Advisory Committee Date: July 6, 2010
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 17, 2010 22:07:55 GMT -8
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Post by NMcKay on Nov 24, 2010 16:11:52 GMT -8
no replacement other than the klitsa? do they now know about the 2 boats sitting idle in maple ridge, readily available for charter?
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Nick
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Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Nov 24, 2010 16:45:06 GMT -8
no replacement other than the klitsa? do they now know about the 2 boats sitting idle in maple ridge, readily available for charter? 2 boats which are more or less identical to the Klitsa... what exactly would be the point?
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Post by Mike on Nov 24, 2010 17:26:42 GMT -8
no replacement other than the klitsa? do they now know about the 2 boats sitting idle in maple ridge, readily available for charter? Does anyone know which item this reply is referring to? I've looked at the previous few posts, and can't find the reference. I think he's referring to the first quote in reply #12.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 24, 2010 21:55:17 GMT -8
My first thought is that he was referring to replacement of the Mill Bay. I see, however, that is not a topic of discussion anywhere on this thread.
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Post by NMcKay on Nov 30, 2010 14:30:38 GMT -8
no replacement other than the klitsa? do they now know about the 2 boats sitting idle in maple ridge, readily available for charter? 2 boats which are more or less identical to the Klitsa... what exactly would be the point? well they sliced and diced one boat, what harm would it be to do that to these 2 boats. should be cheaper than Building new.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Nov 30, 2010 16:29:26 GMT -8
2 boats which are more or less identical to the Klitsa... what exactly would be the point? well they sliced and diced one boat, what harm would it be to do that to these 2 boats. should be cheaper than Building new. Yes, and if I'm not mistaken two senior engineering managers were the subject of lawsuits in part due to major cost overruns on the Kuper project. That slice and dice cost just as much as building new would have, and resulted in another boat that BCF doesn't need. Bottom line: BCF does not need the Albion boats. Sorry, there just isn't a home for them. And for what Translink seems to want for them, I don't blame them for saying "no thanks".
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