Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Nov 16, 2010 14:54:50 GMT -8
I'll repost my comment reaction here, then Look up (scroll up), to post #2 in this new thread. Flugel, you are too efficient for me! It could also be as well that you spend way too much time on this forum, which might be a bit worrying . Just to update some points. In regards to capacity, I would be willing to bet this ferry could have a tween decks car deck similar to the MV Confederation, or does have some sort of platform decks. I have seen similar looking ferries which have either stowable platforms like the Queen of Chilliack, or fixed ones like the Island Sky, or a combination, with a fixed upper car deck reach by stowable internal ramps from the lower deck. Although I think Neil is right, that its dimension seem kind of small for having an extra car deck hidden somewhere within, you must keep in mind that it could potentially be a viable replacement for the Burnaby, but with the resulting significant decrease in vehicle capacity on the Comox run, which BCFerries probably would not really blink at. If this has been an unannounced project that BCFerries has been looking into for some time, I can imagine why it was kept quiet, despite the inevitable complaints that FOI may been violated again. BCFerries is well aware how the local shipbuilding unions and public sentiment can get riled up about announcements of major foreign investments as opposed to domestic ones. Finally, Scott really managed to kill off any visual appeal for this ship with that edited picture. It could be posted in the fleet profiles section of BCFerries website right now, and fit right in. I think they could just simply leave it in its current colors with a nice balance of blue and white, and maybe just stick some tiny, hard to see slugs on the very small funnels this ship has. I just have one more question... What language was post #6 translated into or out of? Because it has all the hallmarks of someone who used a very basic internet translating service to translate something into English, or used the same software to translate something written in English into an unknown language.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 16, 2010 15:01:58 GMT -8
I just have one more question... What language was post #6 translated into or out of? Because it has all the hallmarks of someone who used a very basic internet translating service to translate something into English, or used the same software to translate something written in English into an unknown language. Post #6 is by a friendly member who is likely originally from somewhere overseas. This matches his usual style and I can figure out what he's saying. - He's a good source, based on his history of posting here, and I'm glad that he posted again today.
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Nov 16, 2010 15:15:31 GMT -8
I just have one more question... What language was post #6 translated into or out of? Because it has all the hallmarks of someone who used a very basic internet translating service to translate something into English, or used the same software to translate something written in English into an unknown language. Post #6 is by a friendly member who is likely originally from somewhere overseas. This matches his usual style and I can figure out what he had written- He's a good source, based on his history of posting here, and I'm glad that he posted again today. I'll let it go at that. I guess I am just keyed up from posts in the past, in which this would have been the linguistic style to identify a spam post, which it clearly was not. It was just difficult to make out. Maybe I need to adjust my screen brightness so I can read properly. I was doing some research on Fiskerstrand shipyard, to see if they had a webcam for those who want to see this under construction barge. It turns out that, they have also partnered with another company to build the world's largest gas-powered ferry, named Fjord1 and scheduled to be delivered on November 30 2011 for operation on Bokna Fjord between Arsvågen and Mortavika, announcement made this spring. www.energyglobal.com/sectors/liquid-natural-gas/articles/The_worlds_largest_gas_powered_ferry.aspxIs it possible BCFerries is considering alternative fuels as a cost cutting measure if they purchased this ferry?
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Kam
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Post by Kam on Nov 16, 2010 17:30:37 GMT -8
Have a look at the Youtube video Flugel posted, right at 1:41. You can see a ramp being lowered (or raised) on the car deck. Looks to me like a below the watter line car deck, or Tween deck. And this pic sure looks like the main car deck has a rise in the middle. www.faktaomfartyg.se/saaremaa_2010_b_2.htm
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Mirrlees
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Post by Mirrlees on Nov 16, 2010 17:59:06 GMT -8
I think you're right, Kam. There does appear to be a tween car deck. I could see BCFS not using that due to the hassle it would create loading and unloading. The one on the NorAd isn't used for this reason; also, could you imagine this set-up being used on a multi-destination like Route 9 it would be a nightmare! I do think it would be workable for Route 17 IMHO.
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Post by gordon on Nov 16, 2010 18:11:11 GMT -8
The Hiiumaa is slightly slower & holds 40 fewer cars thatn the Burnaby does, so would this be an appropriate replacement for the Burnaby?
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Post by Scott on Nov 16, 2010 18:20:27 GMT -8
Anyone feel like paying for a Freedom of Information request on all BC Ferries correspondence with Saaremaa?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 16, 2010 19:27:31 GMT -8
I think kam's called it right regarding a lower car deck, and I agree with Mirrlees about the hassle of using that deck in the Gulf Islands. It would probably work fine on the Powell River - Comox route, where there's so much down time between sailings.
The passenger cabin looks inadequate for a sailing where there might be 150 cars on board plus foot passengers.
I like the looks of this vessel, overall. Fairly sleek for a double ender. Remember, though, nobody's bought anything yet.
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Post by Kahloke on Nov 16, 2010 20:54:56 GMT -8
Her vehicle entrances look a bit funny. Would they work with BCF's berths, or would BCF need to redesign the car decks ends before bringing her into service? EDIT: This video proves my point: Skip to 1:12. Note that this also contains some on-board footage later on in the movie. That's a great video find. It really shows how the vessel connects with the dock. Yeah, you're right. It looks like BC Ferries would have to modify the bow to fit its berths, but they've had to do that before with other second-hand vessels they have acquired, so I don't imagine that aspect would necessarily make or break the deal.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 16, 2010 21:54:09 GMT -8
One needs to keep in mind that European ferry car capacity seems to be determined based on the footprint of a typical Smart Car. The NorAd was listed as having a capacity of 178 before coming to Canada. BCFS now lists its capacity (based on the standard North American vehicle size) as 101. This ferry in service in our waters might have a capacity of 100 vehicles. With a capacity that low and a speed of 15 knots it is not suitable to replace the Nanaimo, though it might be okay on the Comox - Powell River route if the number of return trips is increased during periods of higher demand. This vessel appears as being seriously overbuilt for Swartz Bay - Gulf Island routes. The heavy ice breaking hull could well prove to be a liability, as was the case decades ago with the Suzy Q, which also had a heavy ice breaking hull. As a replacement for the Wack, I don't think so. Its passenger accommodation appears to be too limited, and what about crew accommodation? The vehicle capacity appears to be about right, though. Also, for route 40, I don't think a double ender is a particularly good choice. It has been stated on this forum before that the advantage of being double ended applies to runs of ~90 - 120 minutes and shorter. Above that single ended is the better choice.
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Post by ferryfanyvr on Nov 16, 2010 22:09:41 GMT -8
It should be noted that any single vessel bought/built to replace the Burnaby would also have to be capable of filling in on rt 9....otherwise that route would be left with no suitable relief ship.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Nov 17, 2010 4:41:40 GMT -8
At 98 metres long and 18 wide, there's no way this vessel could carry close to 150 cars, unless it has two vehicle decks, which it doesn't appear to have. The Queen of Chilliwack is about 16 metres longer and has two platform vehicle lanes, and is still only listed as carrying 115- and even that's optimistic for the ' wack. This boat might carry about 90, or 100, tops. Unless they're going to drastically drop capacity on routes 9 or 17, this boat would only be suitable for route 5, or to replace the Bowen Queen on summer route 9A service, or maybe on route 40, assuming the passenger space is adequate. Perhaps the under-construction Hiiumaa will be a larger version of her sister ship? I've found lots of images and stats on the M/S Saaremaa, but no specs on the Hiiumaa that is supposedly under-construction at the Fiskerstrand shipyard in Norway. Since this is all speculation anyways...how about two of these vessels on a route 17/18 merge as the final scenerio?
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Post by glasseye on Nov 17, 2010 7:21:03 GMT -8
Honestly, this boat doesn't look suitable for open water use for the northern routes in winter. The latching mechanism for the bow visor is minimal and does not seem strong enough to stand up to slamming sea conditions. Worse, seeming lack of scuppers mean that the vessel would get in a world of trouble very quickly if it started to take water over the bow and onto the car deck. All of this is in addition to the fact that hulls shaped for ice conditions rarely seakeep well in rough weather.
All of this is well substantiated by the fact that Saaremaa is classed as EU Class C, which means that it is
For comparison, wave heights in Hecate Straight at the moment are reported to be 8 meters.
Several videos on YouTube confirm that sister ships Muhumaa and Saaremaa have lower (below water line) car decks.
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Post by gordon on Nov 17, 2010 9:04:12 GMT -8
Would it not make more sense for BCF to replace the with a ship designed to serve the inner South Coast waters as opposed to Hiiumaa.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Nov 17, 2010 13:38:30 GMT -8
Would it not make more sense for BCF to replace the with a ship designed to serve the inner South Coast waters as opposed to Hiiumaa. This is inherently debatable, and is essentially the whole reason behind this discussion anyway. With the government refusing to give aid for a new ship, BCFerries is likely considering it less costly to purchase an already built ship and just pour a little extra money into it to hopefully get it work right for them, as opposed to spending all of the mega-bucks for designing and building a new vessel from scratch, and footing all the costs associated with the design and development costs, before even starting to build a new ship
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 17, 2010 15:49:01 GMT -8
I've signed-up for a free 2-week online subscription to the Tradewinds shipping newspaper. www.tradewinds.no/No new items on the Estonian - BC ferry speculation, other than 1 short story that's the same as the story that started-off this here thread. I'll keep my eyes open in this publication.
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Post by lmtengs on Nov 17, 2010 16:01:32 GMT -8
...Worse, seeming lack of scuppers... Just for the record, the Hiiumaa does in fact have scuppers at both ends of the ship. You can see them in this photo, which was also posted on page 1 of this thread: www.faktaomfartyg.se/saaremaa_2010_b_2.htmI presume they don't have scuppers the entire length of the ship due to the 'hill' on her vehicle deck.
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Post by glasseye on Nov 17, 2010 17:34:21 GMT -8
Just for the record, the Hiiumaa does in fact have scuppers at both ends of the ship. Yes, but they look to be about a half meter above the main deck at the bow. By the time those scuppers work, there will be a half meter of flooding against the inside of the visor. I see two smallish scuppers immediately behind the visor[1], but I don't think they're big enough to handle the amount of over-the-bow water the northern routes see in bad weather. ROROs sink like rocks if their car decks get flooded. The weakness of the bow visor locks is a show stopper for northern use in any case. If BCF buys this boat, it'll be for southern and/or northern summer use only. [1] See photo #2 at www.marinetraffic.com/ais/showallphotos.aspx?mmsi=276786000
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Post by novabus9228 on Nov 17, 2010 18:27:33 GMT -8
Very intersting. Here is what I have been thinking for the past several days. We all know BC Ferries has Future Plans of placing the Island Sky on the HB- Snug Cove run. Could this "New" Vessle become the Regular vessle on the Powell River-Sechelt run permanently and the Island Sky be put on the Bowen Island Run? Maybe BC Ferries would want to retire the Mayne or Bowen Queen and place the Queen of Capilano alongside with her sister on the Swartz Bay to SGI Run permanently. The Capilano Has a Capacity of about 85 AEQ so it would increase vehicle capacity Especially during the Summer. Because of this vessles Open car deck she would not be eligable for the Comox to Powell River run, Or the Discovery Coast Passage. To me replacing the Mayne Queen would be a logical explanation. Lets remember the Chilliwack has a fully enclosed Car deck, and Tie downs for vehciles Which makes her the only suitable vessle for the Port Hardy summer run. In the summer, The Bowen Queen could be re-deployed to Swartz Bay while the Capilano could service route 9a Giving Greater capacity down south.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Nov 18, 2010 7:48:41 GMT -8
If you google the The Ghostwriter movie with Pierce Brosnan and Ewan McGregor the Ferry that is supposedly the Cap Cod ferry, is another semi sister ship. The Sylt Island Ferry is of a similar design that many Northern European ferries follow. www.syltfaehre.de/ They all use the lifting bow segment that raises the hull depth at the front of the ferry, versus the ISky arrangement. Not only is it a good movie but you see some of both the outside and inside of the ferry in two different scenes. The movie opens with the ferry arriving in port but a BMW is left without an owner on the car deck. Then later Ewan McGregor has a chase scene on the ferry so you see a bit of the interior. I am not sure but I think the Sylt Island ferry might be a slightly smaller version of the ferry in question. A partially or almost finished ferry would be significantly cheaper to buy than starting from scratch. Assuming of course the modifications required weren't too extensive.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Nov 18, 2010 8:18:35 GMT -8
Very intersting. Because of this vessles Open car deck she would not be eligable for the Comox to Powell River run, Or the Discovery Coast Passage. To me replacing the Mayne Queen would be a logical explanation. Lets remember the Chilliwack has a fully enclosed Car deck, and Tie downs for vehciles Which makes her the only suitable vessle for the Port Hardy summer run. I have one question...why does the open deck preclude the use of this vessel on Route 17? glasseye's comments about the possible lack of adequate scuppers and visor locks (tie-downs are hardly an issue and could be easily retrofitted as long as the deck is rated to handle the tensile moments imposed at the connection points), as well as the EU Class C rating, do substaniate the claim that this vessel, if identical to her sister, would not be capable of northern routes, but show me a reason she couldn't serve on southern cross-strait routes.
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Post by ferrytraveller on Nov 18, 2010 9:01:46 GMT -8
Just a note, that vessel could run on any of the southern strait waters. That is NOT an open car deck ferry, due to the fact she has visors and raised bulwarks at each end. Open car deck does not mean the ferry must have bow or stern doors, just look at the Tenaka which runs in open waters
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Post by gordon on Nov 18, 2010 14:14:43 GMT -8
What is an EU Class C ferry?
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Post by glasseye on Nov 18, 2010 14:21:07 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 20, 2010 20:07:57 GMT -8
Regarding the possible purchase & conversion of Euro ferries, BC Ferries management may want to read some of the history of the Union Steamship Company's "White Boat Era".
After the 2nd World War, Union bought 3 surplus Canadian Navy corvettes and converted them for Union northern routes (Coquitlam III, Camosun III, Chilcotin).
The ships were ill suited to efficient operations for Union's business and were soon dubbed the "White Elephants".
Here is the excerpt that got me thinking of how BC Ferries might muck up their possible purchase of a ferry for conversion/use on a BCF route (and maybe this has Sonia applicability too).
- from page 115 of Union Steamships Remembered, by Art Twigg. This section was written by Ben Smith.
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