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Post by Barnacle on Nov 7, 2007 19:10:28 GMT -8
Grand old gals, the man says... there's a reason aging celebrities always take care to not be seen in strong daylight.
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Post by chokai on Nov 7, 2007 20:52:11 GMT -8
Yes but in this case I think he may have a point. I fear the pressure will be on the state (esp. the gov) to find money *somewhere* to start several projects that the vote killed. The cynical side in me sees the new build program(s) as likely targets once the politicians start jockeying/shopping for votes as the next election rolls around. Sadly "finding" $300M or a $200M and getting some good press regarding 520 or 405 gets you a lot more votes than a ferry or two. It'll be an interesting year, especially given that the SEs condition does put them between a rock and a hard place regarding to much meddling.
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 8, 2007 6:45:46 GMT -8
I hope the SE's aren't between a rock and a hard place... that'd finish them off, literally and politically.
But, as you state, I suspect you're right. People will no doubt look at how "badly" WSF has been run, and ask why they should provide any money, never stopping to think that if they don't provide money, it will ony get worse.
So it goes.
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Post by zman on Nov 8, 2007 7:45:26 GMT -8
Maybe somebody should point out the fact that WSF is technically part of the highway, as they do link some highways.
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Mirrlees
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Post by Mirrlees on Nov 8, 2007 22:56:32 GMT -8
Maybe somebody should point out the fact that WSF is technically part of the highway, as they do link some highways. You should be so lucky, on this side of the border the governing Liberals refuse to agree with this theory. The highway ends when the land does.
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Post by SS Shasta on Nov 9, 2007 0:01:52 GMT -8
Grand old gals, the man says... there's a reason aging celebrities always take care to not be seen in strong daylight. Ah yes........Now you know why my favorite celebrities are Mae West, Norma Shearer, and Marlene Dietrich ;D. Actually, the three counties involved in this week's transportation vote are also significant to the major routes of WSF. I have heard that there is significant opposition to having King County take over the current passenger only route to Vashon Island. I do think that their support will be needed for any future financing for new vessels.
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 9, 2007 7:30:56 GMT -8
Well, I have to concur about the idea of King County taking over the SVPO route. I hope someday that the general public can understand that ferries are tremendously difficult to make profitable (especially those four-engined beercans Skagit and Kalama) and, moreover, it's best to have the ferry system under one consolidated umbrella. We may not be the most efficient outfit around, but why duplicate all the necessary facilities?
Besides, any objection from Richard (blast that automatic censor!) Hayes doesn't count, because he's head of Kitsap Transit. They lost their ferry franchise because Kitsap County wouldn't raise taxes to pay for it (big surprise) and, moreover, neither Seattle nor Vashon Island are in Kitsap County. ;D
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Post by zman on Nov 9, 2007 11:40:20 GMT -8
It is strange that there are no highway plans that help highway 20 (the highway that the Port Townsend/Keystone route runs a portion of).
I guess that the 520 bridge is more important than the water portion of Hwy 20.
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 9, 2007 12:31:22 GMT -8
Well, a lot more people use 520 than 20. But it doesn't mean that the water portion of 20 doesn't need replacing. What Washington State truly needs is a transportation czar to say, "tough rocks, Spokane. We aren't repaving I-90 again; the money is needed on the west side this year."
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Post by EGfleet on Nov 18, 2007 9:19:07 GMT -8
Looks like they are in worse shape than thought...and if it is true the WSF is failing to disclose all the information on these boats, the persons responsible should be fired immediately.
Report omits ferries' defects
State lawmakers were told the 80-year-old boats were in "good condition," but cracks and other damage went unreported.
By Scott North and Lukas Velush Herald Writers
Washington State Ferries provided an incomplete picture of problems on its oldest vessels when it briefed state lawmakers late last month about detailed inspections of the 80-year-old hulls.
Ferry officials told the Legislature's Joint Transportation Committee in an Oct. 30 report that the state's four Steel Electric-class ferries are "generally considered to be in good condition."
They now acknowledge finding two dozen more cracks in the aging steel than they told lawmakers about. Corrosion of hull plates also is more widespread than reported, and severe enough that more unplanned repairs appear likely for two of the vessels, the Quinault and Klickitat, ferry officials said.
Some information about the Steel Electrics' problems was purposely omitted from the report to lawmakers, state officials said in interviews. Other troubles have been discovered recently as part of ongoing work to bring the vessels into compliance with Coast Guard orders for stepped up inspection and maintenance.
"This is disturbing to me that the hulls are in worse shape than what they told me about," said state Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, D-Camano Island, chairwoman of the senate's transportation committee. "I'm really disturbed about that if that's accurate. Don't worry, I'll ask the questions."
Ferry officials didn't selectively chose information, they instead focused on presenting the most-pertinent details about ongoing ferry repair efforts, said Marta Coursey, communications director for the ferry system.
The Steel Electric-class vessels are the oldest ferries operating on salt water in the nation. A consultant hired to inspect the ferries submitted reports identifying 184 fractures in the four vessels' steel hulls, documents show. Ferry officials told lawmakers about 160 of those problems. They all document places where the metal in the hulls' plating or supporting frame has weakened or been damaged over time.
The 24 additional fractures were omitted from the ferry system's report to lawmakers because they were discovered using additional inspection measures that at the time had been performed on only one of the vessels, the Illahee, said Dave Nye, a ferry system preservation engineer.
The report to lawmakers attempted to summarize a large amount of technical information in an understandable way, he said.
The report to lawmakers didn't hint that ferry officials for weeks believed hull inspections had identified 31 problems on the boats serious enough that the Steel Electrics could have been forced out of service until repaired to the Coast Guard's satisfaction.
The problem turned out to be improper application of federal regulations, and it went undiscovered until late September, documents show.
The Herald learned of the earlier internal concerns when it asked the ferry system for copies of the hull-inspection reports.
Coursey said the ferry system mistakenly provided the newspaper with draft reports that described the problems as more serious than they ultimately were classified. The reports initially provided the newspaper aren't marked "draft."
The consultant hired by the ferry system to inspect the Steel Electrics confirmed errors were made in applying federal standards to problems found with the hulls, but not in their technical description.
Duncan McClure, president of International Inspection Inc., in Seattle, said his firm specializes in finding problems in ships.
It is up to others, in this case the ferry system and the Coast Guard, to ultimately determine what they mean to the vessel's safety, he said.
"What we are trying to achieve here is (to provide) correct and relevant information for everybody and we are not infallible from making mistakes," he said.
The ferry system is taking seriously problems found on the Steel Electrics and is making improvements, said Lt. Cmdr. Todd Howard, who oversees vessel inspections for the Coast Guard in Seattle. Repairs have made the ferries better now than they were just a few months ago, he said.
"I am confident that we've acted in good faith all along on this," said Tim Browning, senior port engineer in charge of vessel preservation for the ferry system.
In its Oct. 30 report to lawmakers, ferry officials described the Quinault as in general being "in good condition throughout."
On Thursday, a little more than two weeks later, Browning said work done by ferry system crews on the Quinault has turned up extensive corrosion of the 1927-vintage rivited steel plates still found deep in the vessel's hull along the keel.
Although crews have been diligent in maintenance, corrosion pits have developed over time in the aging steel, Browning said.
"It was very difficult to see until you pulled the paint away where you would start doing work," he said. Crews took advantage of downtime while the Quinault was in dry dock to remove paint and inspect the steel.
Repairing those problems likely will keep the Quinault in dry dock another month, and will be a "significant" expense, Browning said. He declined to speculate on how much.
The ferry system already has spent $1.2 million this year on repairs to the Quinault, and "it has gotten to the point where we are having to stop and look at the cost," Browning said.
The ferry system has paid upwards of $4 million this year on repairs to the Steel Electrics. Much of that work was done on the Illahee, which has returned to service in the San Juan Islands.
The vessel is outfitted with two new stern tubes, the pipes that enclose the propeller shafts where they go through the hull. The new stern tubes were fabricated from modern steel, and replace the Illahee's corroded cast-iron tubes. One of those tubes developed a 20-inch-long crack in July, allowing water to stream into the hull at five gallons a minute.
The Illahee's new stern tubes are "way better than whatever she came out of the shipyard with," the Coast Guard's Howard said. The Quinault also has been fitted with new stern tubes, and the Klickitat likely will have to undergo a similar operation, ferry officials said.
The Klickitat remains in service on the challenging run between Keystone on Whidbey Island and Port Townsend on the Olympic Peninsula. Browning said each vessel is different, but corrosion similar to that found on the Quinault should be expected on the Klickitat.
"As prudent people we can only assume a pretty high likelihood that we are going to find something similar," he said.
Meanwhile, ferry officials are mulling over the Nisqually's fate. They project that $3.5 million in repairs may be necessary, and are considering the costs versus the benefits, Coursey said.
The decision must be made by December whether to seek a renewal of the Nisqually's operating permit from the Coast Guard inspection, she added.
Coursey said ferry officials know time is running out for the Steel Electrics. They hope by January to present a plan for either building new boats or make-overs that could squeeze years more life from the vessels.
State Rep. Lynn Kessler, D-Hoquiam, was assured by the governor that the Steel Electrics are safe. Like Haugen, she was present at the Joint Transportation Committee meeting at the end of October.
She said she was surprised that legislators were not told about the 24 additional cracks on the Illahee and that there was a substantial amount of corrosion on at least one of the vessels.
"If these (ferries) are in that bad of shape, we really need to get down to business and make some very serious decisions," Kessler said.
She said she would "take the high road" when asked about ferry officials telling her that the ferries are in "good condition."
"I would like to see the report," she said. "We need to ask some tough questions."
Haugen said the culture in the ferry department needs to change.
"What we're trying to get is more transparency," Haugen said. "We've done it with the rest of the transportation department. All you have to do is look at their gray notebook and you'll find out more information than you'll ever want to know. There isn't the same transparency in the ferry department."
Haugen and Kessler said shutting down the run is not an option, so the Steel Electrics need to be replaced or salvaged, and quickly.
"We can yak all day long about how many ferries we need, but in the end we need to make sure the ferries we do have are safe," Kessler said.
Critics of the ferry system say it needs to be forced to replace the Steel Electrics.
"Here is a concept for Washington State Ferries to consider: tell the truth. Stop spinning the stories and solve the problem. Mothball these old rust buckets," said Jed Powell, a Seattle attorney who represents the J.M. Martinac Shipbuilding Corp. of Tacoma. The boat builder has been so critical of the ferry system's handling of its problems with the Steel Electrics that it filed a lawsuit in federal court. The litigation is now on hold.
"Has anyone in our government considered what will happen if we suffer the catastrophic loss of one of these ferries at sea?" Powell asked. "The civil liability would be staggering. And any criminal implications could go all the way to the top."
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Post by ferryboat fan on Dec 7, 2007 3:22:53 GMT -8
Does anyone know the name of or even remember a movie from the 1970’s that was filmed onboard one of Steel Electrics? I don’t remember if it was a TV of a big screen and I can’t seem to find anything about it.
I remember watching on Q13 back in the 80’s when they had their old dialing for dollars afternoon movies and they played it then. I thought the name was either “disaster at sea or Terror at sea but I can’t seem to find anything.
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 7, 2007 7:35:20 GMT -8
Might've been the second half of a two-part, two-hour Emergency! that was filmed aboard the Klickitat. The general synopsis was a fire in the engine room after someone mistaken delivered gasoline to the boat instead of diesel. WSF was not happy about how inept they were made to look.
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FNS
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Post by FNS on Dec 7, 2007 13:43:23 GMT -8
Might've been the second half of a two-part, two-hour Emergency! that was filmed aboard the Klickitat. The general synopsis was a fire in the engine room after someone mistaken delivered gasoline to the boat instead of diesel. WSF was not happy about how inept they were made to look. The title of this 2 hour presentation is: "Most Deadly Passage".
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Post by In Washington on Dec 7, 2007 18:35:53 GMT -8
Latest Press Release on the Steel Electrics:
Ongoing Inspections of Aging Steel Electric Ferries Reveal Additional Repair Needs
(Seattle) As inspections on its Steel Electric class ferries have progressed, Washington State Ferries (WSF) reports updated information on the status of the two ferries that are in drydock at Todd Pacific Shipyards in Seattle for inspection and maintenance work.
The Quinault and Illahee have been in drydock since November 28. Since then, crews and shipyard staff have worked around the clock to prepare and inspect external and internal hull spaces of both vessels to find any steel problems. Removing paint on the vessels’ 80 year-old riveted steel hulls allows WSF to determine the feasibility and extent of needed repairs.
On Tuesday, November 20, Washington State Secretary of Transportation Paula Hammond announced that WSF would pull all four of the Steel Electric class vessels out of service due to concerns about their safety. Work on the Quinault revealed significant hull pitting along the keel that WSF believes likely extends to all four Steel Electric class vessels. This decision led to vehicle service being suspended on the Port Townsend-Keystone ferry route.
Ongoing work is revealing more pitting and corrosion. “As work has progressed on the Quinault, inspections have revealed additional steel that needs to be replaced and the extent of needed repairs continues to grow,” said Paul Brodeur, WSF Director of Vessel Maintenance and Preservation. “These are old vessels and until all the paint is removed on the hull we will not know the full extent of the problem.” At this time, 70 percent of the paint on the hull has been removed and WSF has discovered that at least 45 percent of the Quinault’s hull will need to be replaced before the vessel can return to service. This percentage may increase if WSF finds more pitting as it completes inspection of the Quinault and Illahee over the next few weeks.
In the same dry-dock at Todd Shipyard, workers are hydro blasting the Illahee’s hull to remove the paint and inspect the steel underneath. Early inspections of the outside of the vessel show that there are areas with pitting that require repair, similar to what has been found on the Quinault.
“These new developments add complexity to our decision about how much to invest in these 80 year-old boats,” said Paula Hammond. “We are moving forward quickly with plans to replace the Steel Electric class vessels, and I understand how difficult it is for residents of Port Townsend and Whidbey Island to be without vehicle ferry service.
“We will continue to do everything we can to keep our communities informed and to work closely with them and policy-makers as decisions are made and new information becomes available.”
WSF plans to use emerging information about the condition of the Quinault and Illahee to inform decisions about next steps. “We continue to assess the full range of hull pitting and this will help determine the extent and the cost of needed repairs. As we move forward, our first priority is the safety and service needs of our customers,” Hammond said.
Background:
WSF owns four Steel Electric class vessels – Quinault, Klickitat, Illahee and Nisqually. These vessels, built in 1927, predominantly serve the Port Townsend-Keystone and San Juan Islands inter-island routes. They are the only ferries in the system capable of operating in Keystone’s narrow and shallow harbor.
# # #
No Ordinary Journey
Created on June 1, 1951, Washington State Ferries (WSF) is the largest ferry system in the United States and the largest ferry system in the world based on vehicles carried. More than 24 million people a year ride the ferries and over 30,000 vehicles a day use this critical link in the state highway system. WSF has a fleet of 26 vessels and operates 20 terminals throughout Puget Sound.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 7, 2007 21:34:22 GMT -8
And the news keeps getting worse... Cost to fix aging ferries higher than expectedwww.heraldnet.com/article/20071207/NEWS01/712080014&news01ad=1By Scott North Herald Writer SEATTLE -- There is more bad news for Washington State Ferries. Emergency repair work on the ferries Quinault and Illahee has turned up more problems than expected, and fixing the 80-year-old vessels is now expected to take more time and cost millions of dollars more than even recently estimated, said Traci Brewer-Rogstad, the department's deputy executive director. The state had hoped to have the two Steel Electric-class vessels returned to service by February. That now appears unlikely because of the scope of the work, Brewer-Rogstad said late today. There are additional complications, because the ferries, now in dry dock at Todd Pacific Shipyards on Harbor Island in Seattle, must be out by the end of January to make room for other previously scheduled projects at the shipyards. "It's a bigger problem and we don't have answers right now," Brewer-Rogstad said. State lawmakers and others are expected to soon discuss the policy implications of continuing to try to repair the aging ferries, including the rising costs, she said. The state already has spent roughly $4 million on emergency repairs to the Steel Electrics this year and anticipated spending another $4 million to repair the Quinault and Illahee. The costs for repairing the additional problems is expected to be significant, Brewer-Rogstad said, adding that one of the decisions facing the state is "ultimately, when do you say when?" The Steel Electrics are the oldest ferries operating in salt water in the nation. Corrosion problems in the hulls on Nov. 20 prompted state Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond to order all four of the aging vessels tied up to undergo inspection and repairs. The decision, on the eve of the Thanksgiving holiday traffic rush, forced the ferry system to close down the Keystone-to-Port Townsend run. It has since reopened for passenger-only service.
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Post by Dane on Dec 7, 2007 22:58:51 GMT -8
If 70% of the hull is inspected, and 45% of the steal needs to be replaced, that would mean that if in a statistically perfect world 65% of the hull will need to be replaced. That is unreal!
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 8, 2007 8:59:59 GMT -8
Longer story in the Herald today...sounds like the money is running out. At least they're saying there is going to come a time (already passed if you ask me) where it becomes impractical to keep dumping money into these relics.
Old ferries even worse than feared
Fixing 80-year-old boats needs added time, money
By Scott North and Lukas Velush, Herald Writers
SEATTLE -- There is more bad news for Washington's oldest ferries.
Emergency repair work on the Quinault and Illahee, both 80-year-old Steel Electric-class ferries, is turning up far more corrosion than state officials expected.
On the Quinault alone, up to 45 percent of the hull steel has now been deemed beyond repair and in need of replacement, Hadley Greene, communications manager for Washington State Ferries, said Friday evening. Crews have been working on the vessel nonstop for about three weeks and have been encountering more problems at every step.
"Every time as they see more and more of the hull revealed, it just grows and grows," Greene said.
That means fixing the ferries likely will take more time and cost millions of dollars more than even recent estimates, said Traci Brewer-Rogstad, the ferry system's deputy executive director.
State Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond said the time is approaching when the state has to decide whether it can afford to spend any more money on the Steel Electrics.
"When it's $4 million to $6 million, then maybe it's OK," she said. "When we're getting up to $7 million to $8 million, we're getting up to almost half of what a new vessel would cost. We just have to decide whether we want to spend the money."
State Rep. Judy Clibborn, D-Mercer Island, chairwoman of the House Transportation Committee, said she's growing skeptical about the repair bill.
"Do we want to invest so much money into something that we're not sure is going to last very long?" she asked. "At some point it doesn't make sense."
The Steel Electrics are the oldest ferries operating in saltwater in the nation, and in places their hulls still feature the riveted steel plates they were launched with in 1927. State lawmakers approved the ferries' retirement in 2001, but ferry officials instead pursued plans to build boats too large to work as replacements.
The ferry system on Friday began circulating a draft study, ordered by the Legislature, outlining options for replacing the Steel Electrics. One option considered, but not recommended, is building two or more smaller ferries using a design promoted by Whidbey Island's Nichols Bros. Boat Builders, which recently reopened under bankruptcy protection.
The Steel Electrics have had problems with leaks and cracks for years, but corrosion problems in the hulls prompted Hammond on Nov. 20 to order all four of the aging vessels tied up to undergo inspection and repairs. The decision, on the eve of the Thanksgiving holiday traffic rush, forced the ferry system to close down the Keystone-to-Port Townsend run. It has since reopened for passenger-only service.
Ferry customers are fuming.
"It's ridiculous," said Karis Mills, 31, of Oak Harbor, as she waited to board a passenger-only ferry at Keystone on Whidbey Island on Friday. "It was poor planning and neglectful."
The state had hoped to have the Quinault and Illahee repaired and back in service by February.
That now appears unlikely because of the amount of work that must be done, Brewer-Rogstad said.
An additional complication is that the vessels, now in dry dock at Todd Pacific Shipyards on Harbor Island in Seattle, must be moved by the end of January to make room for other previously scheduled projects at the shipyards.
"It's a bigger problem and we don't have answers right now," Brewer-Rogstad said.
The state already has spent roughly $4 million on emergency repairs to the Steel Electrics this year and anticipated spending another $4 million to repair the Quinault, Greene said. The new problems on that vessel are expected to cost another $1 million to repair.
The state has been spending $850,000 to prep the Illahee for work, and problems similar to those found on the Quinault are apparent, Brewer-Rogstad said.
"It's not looking good," she said.
As recently as Oct. 30, ferry officials were telling state legislators the Steel Electrics were generally in good condition.
That changed after Hammond learned the results of inspections by engineering crews on the Quinault, who earlier this fall received permission to begin searching for potential corrosion in hard-to-reach places deep in the hull.
Since the 1950s, none of the Steel Electrics have met federal safety regulations designed to keep vessels stable and afloat even in the event of a mishap causing serious flooding.
Clibborn said the Legislature will find money to pay for permanent replacement vessels for the Steel Electrics during the upcoming legislative session, but she said the first priority has to be to find a way to temporarily restore the Keystone-to-Port Townsend run.
"We'll find the money," she said.
She expects to hear proposals from ferry officials in meetings next week.
Brewer-Rogstad said ferry officials are exploring options for restoring some car-ferry service to Port Townsend if one or more Steel Electrics can't be repaired soon. Unlike narrow and shallow Keystone Harbor, Port Townsend can be used by larger ferries capable of traveling to other terminals in places such as Edmonds, Kingston, Clinton or Anacortes.
Pursuing those ideas would only come in consultation with ferry communities, Brewer-Rogstad said.
Ferry officials on Friday sent to many of those people the draft report they hope will help lawmakers decide how best to replace the Steel Electrics.
Two of the three strategies suggested by the ferry system's consultant would involve construction of ferries using a design developed by a Seattle naval architecture firm. Those ferries are now in use on the East Coast. The other option would be development of a new 100-car ferry design, something that only is recommended if two of the Steel Electrics can be repaired and returned to service. The estimated cost is $30 million to $40 million per vessel.
Under each option the consultant suggested, the state likely would not have a new ferry for two to three years, and the Legislature would have to take action to approve the project. The boats would be built in Washington shipyards.
"Current law says the vessel would be built in Washington state," Greene said.
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 8, 2007 13:10:27 GMT -8
This same article is also now posted on KOMO's website. I think this may be the final nail in Steel Electrics coffin! It appears it will be a tremendous waste of money to spend anything further on them, given the huge amount of corrosion on their hulls, and the obscene amount of money it's going to take to repair them, only to extend their life for what...a year, if that?
I know that some of the local residents and a lot of NIMBY's have rejected dredging Keystone Harbor, and extending the jetty to allow larger vessels to land there, but I think now is a good time to raise this issue again. We've reached critical mass here regarding the future of ferry service on this route, and it seems to me the dredging/jetty option is really the best solution for re-instating ferry service. Yes, I know there are all kinds of environmental and financial hurdles to get something like this done. I guess it comes down to how badly the local leaders and state government want to keep the Port Townsend-Keystone ferry run. Anything can be accomplished with enough political pressure and will-power. I think we all know, that by doing this, the ferry system can attain a few goals here:
1. they can continue forward with building the new 144-car ferries without worrying about having to build route-specific vessels for Port Townsend. 2. they can immediately move an existing WSF vessel onto the route once the harbor work is completed. 3. It allows for greater vessel flexibility in the future.
Of course, all of this is what WSF wanted to do in the first place. I know that residents of Port Townsend and Keystone balked at the idea of having one of the new 144-car ferries dumping that many cars into their communities at one time, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of the state moving one of the smaller vessels to the run, like maybe the Sealth, or something of a similar size. Two Evergreen's during the summer might work once the 4 new ferries are added to the fleet. OK - enough of my rant. Enjoy the holidays, everyone!
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Post by guest1 on Dec 8, 2007 13:35:14 GMT -8
When all this started, the first option was to build replacement boats, dubbed the maneuverable class. It was then decided to move the terminal to the east end of Keystone spit. This was option two, and was dropped without protest by WSF.
Enlarging Keystone harbor, a hail mary pass, was the final option proposed by WSF to save the new-build program of enlarged boats.
WSF should have realized that this would not fly, as this location is sensitive habitat, and has multiple entrenched opposition groups.
Close to a decade has been wasted, It is time to build boats for this run as is, or move the dock east. New boats take less time and money.
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Post by SS Shasta on Dec 8, 2007 19:28:44 GMT -8
In my opinion, WSF management would be wise to complete required repairs on MV Quinault and MV Illahee. This would likely be less expensive than face a wide range of community and citizen law suits that would likely appear if service is not restored by next spring.
Certainly a investigation is needed to determine why these matters developed in the first place. There is much more to this situation than dwelling on a fact that the vessels are 80 years old. Why, for example, did WSF just spend $85,000 x 4 for a outside inspection of each vessel and announce last month that they were in "good" condition. Was maintenance on these vessels neglected for years? The public is confused and is getting angry
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Post by Ferryman on Dec 8, 2007 19:48:23 GMT -8
Ok, excuse my extreme lack of knowledge of WSF, but I have a question. Forgive me if this has been mentioned before (yes, I know how it feels when the unknowledged asks a dumb question in a large thread full of discussion). I've done my best to see if this has been mentioned on this side of the border of the forum.
Could WSF run "A" vessel from the southern terminal on Whidbey Island to Port Townsend? Ok, longer travelling time, fair enough. But it would partly restore vehicle service between the Island and the Penninsula. It's pretty sad that these old relic vessels (at least two of them for the moment) have fallen into disrepair.
Also, does WSF know for sure that the Nisqually and Klickitat will cost more to fix, than the Illahee, and Quinault? I know WSF is waiting to pull the other two vessels out of the water, but shouldn't they have pulled them all out of the water to compare the hulls? I can understand if drydock space is an issue. But I'm nearly starting to picture a situation where the Klickitat and Nisqually aren't as bad off as the other two.
When the Nisqually was being brought out of the temporary retirement, was she drydocked when work was being done to get her back up to code? Would the corrosion have worsened while she sat idle for a few years? Or would the water being thrusted from the propellars have move of an effect on the hull?
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 8, 2007 22:18:36 GMT -8
When all this started, the first option was to build replacement boats, dubbed the maneuverable class. It was then decided to move the terminal to the east end of Keystone spit. This was option two, and was dropped without protest by WSF. Enlarging Keystone harbor, a hail mary pass, was the final option proposed by WSF to save the new-build program of enlarged boats. WSF should have realized that this would not fly, as this location is sensitive habitat, and has multiple entrenched opposition groups. Close to a decade has been wasted, It is time to build boats for this run as is, or move the dock east. New boats take less time and money. And once again you're saddled with unique boats that are useful, effectively, to only one run. I maintain that moving the terminal is still the best bet, away from the "sensitive habitat" by the man-made harbor. However, I also understand that the opposition would be enough to choke a herd of wildebeest. The one thing that nobody seems to mention is that the blame goes way beyond WSF on this one. The opposition (a vocal minority, as opposition groups often are) effectively have stonewalled the process until they get exactly what they want, rather than something that is an operational possibility to the larger picture; WSF has attempted to bully its way in a similar fashion, apparently completely ignoring the desires of the communities involved; the legislature has refused to provide adequate funding for WSF to maintain its vessels, despite the fact that nobody has ever asked Interstate 90 to pay its own way like the floating piece of the highways are asked to do. So now what?
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 9, 2007 7:17:09 GMT -8
Could WSF run "A" vessel from the southern terminal on Whidbey Island to Port Townsend? Ok, longer travelling time, fair enough. But it would partly restore vehicle service between the Island and the Penninsula. It's pretty sad that these old relic vessels (at least two of them for the moment) have fallen into disrepair. Also, does WSF know for sure that the Nisqually and Klickitat will cost more to fix, than the Illahee, and Quinault? I know WSF is waiting to pull the other two vessels out of the water, but shouldn't they have pulled them all out of the water to compare the hulls? I can understand if drydock space is an issue. But I'm nearly starting to picture a situation where the Klickitat and Nisqually aren't as bad off as the other two. When the Nisqually was being brought out of the temporary retirement, was she drydocked when work was being done to get her back up to code? Would the corrosion have worsened while she sat idle for a few years? Or would the water being thrusted from the propellars have move of an effect on the hull? Well, let's see, in order: Columbia Beach-Port Townsend run: Fun, but ultimately not practical. WSF has run an Edmonds-Port Townsend run in the past, while awaiting completion of the Lofall-South Point terminals (Hood Canal Bridge closure, 1979-1982), but in that case there were vessels available to make the run. Right now, there aren't any boats available--which is why we're in this mess to start with. ;D Repairing the Klickitat & Nisqually: I don't know if WSF has exact figures on this. However, given that the stern tubes on the first two were shot, it's likely that the others will be as well. And in the case of the Nisqually, the concrete will have to be removed before we can even get a look at them. BIG bucks. The Klickitat reportedly does not have the huge quantities of concrete that the others do, owing to differences in the construction of the house, but she has other challenges as well--different propulsion control system, no elevator for disabled access, and probably others--that would sideline her. In short, WSF is halfway to completing the repairs on the first two, and it makes them the likeliest contenders for completion. Though it's looking increasingly marginal for the Illahee in the media...
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Post by BreannaF on Dec 9, 2007 7:30:40 GMT -8
Before I say my piece here, just so there's no misunderstanding, I agree that the course of action that SS Shasta suggests probably has to happen, considering the public perception of the "sunk costs" already put into these ferries and the corner that WSF management has backed themselves into on this matter. But..... In my opinion, WSF management would be wise to complete required repairs on MV Quinault and MV Illahee. This would likely be less expensive than face a wide range of community and citizen law suits that would likely appear if service is not restored by next spring. Only in America. Only in America would the public demand that: - That the harbor can not be expanded or dredged to modern standards, and
- That the terminals cannot be moved or improved to meet even current needs, and
- That the ferry system can only use boats that carry a limited number of vehicles at a time, and
- That tax revenue must be kept below a level to properly fund infrastructure repair and replacement,
but then go off and sue someone because the ferry system didn't get all the tourists to their town. Agreed that the time for talking is over and the time for action is now. But it seems just to ridiculous to sue them for not doing anything after limiting them in so many ways. Silly public.
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 9, 2007 7:37:06 GMT -8
Well, I can see where PTK might be limited to one-boat service this summer, beause of the large amount of money that has been put into the Quinault could even finish off the Illahee (depending on how bad it is). But yes, WSF has to get a car boat out there somehow. And unfortunately, the only thing that can run out there is a steel-electric because of all the limitations placed by the public. But getting a second boat rebuilt? That's fiscally irresponsible, when the money really should be dumped into newbuilds--or climbing over the top of the opposition and simply plunking a new terminal down. People claim that any move of the terminal will lengthen the run, but neglect to include that moving out of Keystone Harbor would give them the option of using a 15-knot boat instead of 11... ;D
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