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Post by guest1 on Dec 13, 2007 14:04:25 GMT -8
Not short sighted, but backward sighted--by about 25 years.
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Post by Electric Thunderbird on Dec 13, 2007 16:01:04 GMT -8
stone route. - Starting today, the Snohomish will run from Colman Dock to PT, and a private ferry service will run from PT-Keystone. What's the logic of the seattle to PT run? Isn't the PT traffic coming from the north? Candian Tourists? Anybody from the south can drive?
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Post by guest1 on Dec 13, 2007 16:58:47 GMT -8
Tim Caldwell, of the Port Townsend Chamber of Commerce, has been promoting a PT/Seattle run for over ten years, WSF caved in. Ironically, without prior promotion, this run will take Port Townsend dollars to Seattle.
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 13, 2007 17:04:36 GMT -8
Oh, where to begin here?
First of all, I'm glad that the Gregoire is finally on-board with retiring the Steel Electrics immediately, and not wasting any more money on them.
Secondly, I agree with Hergfest's questioning about using 54-car ferries on a route where the Steel Electrics' 59 & 64 car capacities do not meet the current demand. OK, so they are building 3 of them. That still doesn't adequately address future growth on this route, which will happen. Besides, with an extra boat on the run (if they ran all three during the summer, for instance), now that's another crew that has to be paid, another boat that needs fuel and maintenance, etc. Wouldn't two larger boats be more cost effective?
Third: I am interested to see how the designers will modify the Nichols' Brothers plans of these smaller vessels to suit the characteristics of the route (ie. the openness of Admiralty Inlet, and the potential for rough weather). I would think that a modified "Island Home" design, which has an enclosed car deck and bow doors, would be a better template to base the Port Townsend ferries on. Island Home, for those who may not know, is a Seattle-designed ferry built for the Steamship Authority which sails between Woods Hole and Martha's Vineyard in Massachussets.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Dec 13, 2007 17:16:15 GMT -8
Orcas Native
First, agree
Second, strongly agree
Third, Down right smart
Essentially said everything I would have said. The enclosed cardeck in the Admarility Inlet is crucial due to the storms that happens. Small vessels could not handle such and would have to cancel.
HOWEVER, Whoever decided to listen to the residents not wanting bigger ferries and the residents that complained about it deserve part of the blame in this. They wanted to keep it the way it is and fearing of too much traffic, now, there is too little and the business is going bad
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Dec 13, 2007 20:08:01 GMT -8
Oh, where to begin here? First of all, I'm glad that the Gregoire is finally on-board with retiring the Steel Electrics immediately, and not wasting any more money on them. Secondly, I agree with Hergfest's questioning about using 54-car ferries on a route where the Steel Electrics' 59 & 64 car capacities do not meet the current demand. OK, so they are building 3 of them. That still doesn't adequately address future growth on this route, which will happen. Besides, with an extra boat on the run (if they ran all three during the summer, for instance), now that's another crew that has to be paid, another boat that needs fuel and maintenance, etc. Wouldn't two larger boats be more cost effective? Third: I am interested to see how the designers will modify the Nichols' Brothers plans of these smaller vessels to suit the characteristics of the route (ie. the openness of Admiralty Inlet, and the potential for rough weather). I would think that a modified "Island Home" design, which has an enclosed car deck and bow doors, would be a better template to base the Port Townsend ferries on. Island Home, for those who may not know, is a Seattle-designed ferry built for the Steamship Authority which sails between Woods Hole and Martha's Vineyard in Massachussets. And here is what an "ISLAND HOME"-like ferry may look like here. She has a very shallow hull, extraordinary maneuverability, bow thrusters at each end besides the propeller and rudder, excellent passenger facilities with an elevator serving all decks (including the Sun Deck). One Tween Deck side lounge space can be crew dorms. The other side could be an art gallery. So many useful things can be incorporated into this vessel. And, most of all, all cars are protected from the salt and the elements. In addition to all of this, she is one foot shorter than a SE and is a slender 64 feet in overall beam. 60 cars is her base capacity. Add 16 more when stowable Tween Decks are deployed. Forget what NB has in mind. Let's go with this!
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 13, 2007 20:40:48 GMT -8
Ferrynutsesattle: Your design rocks! That boat would be way cool on the PTK run! Do you mind if I make a couple of comments? 1. I'm not sure we would need the "Saddle Lounges" on the sides of the vessel. It doesn't seem like The PTK run has a huge amount of walk-ons. It's mostly vehicles, and a lot of those vehicles are RV's (especially on summer weekends), and there's a fair amount of commercial trucks, too. If you lose the saddle lounges, and open that space to the vehicle deck, that's two extra lanes that can accommodate talls. 2. As much as I love the idea of platform decks for getting more cars in, I think it might add too much dwell time for loading and unloading, and I'm not sure that a 15 minute turnaround time could be accomplished with that set-up. Still, if the dwell time isn't a big concern, the platforms would certainly add valuable car space. 3. I wonder how much the vessel could be lengthened while still keeping the draft shallow enough to navigate Keystone Harbor? If we could get a boat a little bit larger than Island Home, and still meet the depth requirements, that would certainly help in the auto-capacity department. 80 cars would be ideal - can it be done?
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Dec 13, 2007 21:18:11 GMT -8
Ferrynutsesattle: Your design rocks! That boat would be way cool on the PTK run! Do you mind if I make a couple of comments? 1. I'm not sure we would need the "Saddle Lounges" on the sides of the vessel. It doesn't seem like The PTK run has a huge amount of walk-ons. It's mostly vehicles, and a lot of those vehicles are RV's (especially on summer weekends), and there's a fair amount of commercial trucks, too. If you lose the saddle lounges, and open that space to the vehicle deck, that's two extra lanes that can accommodate talls. 2. As much as I love the idea of platform decks for getting more cars in, I think it might add too much dwell time for loading and unloading, and I'm not sure that a 15 minute turnaround time could be accomplished with that set-up. Still, if the dwell time isn't a big concern, the platforms would certainly add valuable car space. 3. I wonder how much the vessel could be lengthened while still keeping the draft shallow enough to navigate Keystone Harbor? If we could get a boat a little bit larger than Island Home, and still meet the depth requirements, that would certainly help in the auto-capacity department. 80 cars would be ideal - can it be done? Thanks for your comments! That's what this forum is all about. People sharing ideas. Good thoughts! I quickly retouched the ISLAND HOME, I presented on my Mukilteo timeline, to give an idea of what this would look like here. I think Elliott Bay Design Group could quickly tap into their CAD drawings and come up with a similar design so Nichols, Todd, and Martinac can get their modular strategies ironed out and start work on these. Much better than the Pierce County replicas that are being discussed.
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 13, 2007 21:41:52 GMT -8
Except the process would take twice as long because of all the modifications the ISLAND HOME design would need to work with existing structures, and those are a big piece o' why we're in this jam in the first place.
I don't believe the 54-car boats are intended to be a long-term solution. But they can be had quickly, and that is what is needed right now. (I think the later uses would include Point Defiance, Vashon-Southworth and off-season interisland.)
And as far as the size demands go, tough. It's what "they" wanted. No changes to the docks, and looooooooong lines of retail hostages blowing tourist dollars at three bucks a soda while waiting for the boat on a hot summer's day.
So how fast does the Steilacoom go, anyway?
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Dec 13, 2007 21:47:35 GMT -8
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Post by SS San Mateo on Dec 13, 2007 21:48:21 GMT -8
So how fast does the Steilacoom go, anyway? 11.4 knots. Same for the M/V Christine Anderson.
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Post by Ferryman on Dec 13, 2007 21:49:23 GMT -8
I really like this. Thanks for going through the effort to draw all of that up. As one who sailed on the MV Island Home a few times back in October 2007, I can say that the Saddle Lounges were unecessary. I'd suggest not having saddle lounges, nor raiseable tween decks. When these Tween decks are loaded with cars, the Terminal attendant must stop every vehicle boarding those decks, so that the driver of the vehicle is the only one in the vehicle. Otherwise all other occupants in the vehicle must get out of the vehicle, and walk-on, via the overhead walkway. So instead of Saddle Lounges and raiseable tween decks, I'd suggest Gallery decks, like on BCFS C-Class, in place of the saddle Lounges. On the upper passenger deck of the Island Home, the two amenities is the Concession for coffee, baked goods, etc...and then there's some sort of security desk at the opposite end to the concession. Now me being unfamiliar with WSF, I don't know if they have a desk like this, with 3 or 4 crew members watching the TV screens on all of the hidden cameras. If WSF doesn't need this, at least on this deck anyway, this would open up alot more space for seating.
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Post by Ferry Fanatic on Dec 13, 2007 22:46:21 GMT -8
Well, I for one will miss the Steel Electrics. It is given that they are overdue for retirement but the design sure stood the test of time.
I am glad that they pulled the Nisqually out of retirement just long enough to go into retirement with her sisters (and also give me a chance to ride on her a couple of times). Just something wrong about a slow deterioration at moorage. Out of the four steel's she was my favorite.
As for the new boats, I wish they were similar but updated version of the Steel Electrics. But I also wished I had the opportunity to ride on the Illahee and Klickitat.
Good bye Nisqually, Quinault, Illahee and Klickitat. You will be missed.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Dec 13, 2007 22:48:54 GMT -8
The Steel electrics are finally gone and I can say I got to ride at least one of them. They will definitely be missed for their charm like any other old boat I have been on. Goodbye Nisqually, Quinalt, Ilahee, and Klickitat. You will forever be missed by the dedicated fans of ferries.
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Post by chokai on Dec 14, 2007 0:27:35 GMT -8
Well both the boats that Nichols built for Piece County and the Island Home were Elliot Bay Design Group projects, or they were heavily involved. So perhaps you may see an Island Home descendent yet? Maybe they even have something else kickin' around. Another feature of the Island Home design that made me think was if the higher passenger capacity could be useful as a sub-boat on some of the bussier passenger runs if one of the bigger boats is down? Another plus is that she's a 16knot boat as designed and engined currently so she could keep schedule if running with many of the other boats. Build cost was $32m in '05-06. If the state is looking to spend 100M on the SE replacements that's right around there although probably more with higher steel costs now. All in all I think it is definately a much better solution though. Elliot Bay has certain been busy when it comes to ferries though: www.ebdg.com/portfolio/ferries.htm
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 14, 2007 7:41:17 GMT -8
Well both the boats that Nichols built for Piece County and the Island Home were Elliot Bay Design Group projects, or they were heavily involved. So perhaps you may see an Island Home descendent yet? Maybe they even have something else kickin' around. Another feature of the Island Home design that made me think was if the higher passenger capacity could be useful as a sub-boat on some of the bussier passenger runs if one of the bigger boats is down? Another plus is that she's a 16knot boat as designed and engined currently so she could keep schedule if running with many of the other boats. Build cost was $32m in '05-06. If the state is looking to spend 100M on the SE replacements that's right around there although probably more with higher steel costs now. All in all I think it is definately a much better solution though. Elliot Bay has certain been busy when it comes to ferries though: www.ebdg.com/portfolio/ferries.htmThis is a quote from the Times today about the design of the Steel E's replacement: But Gregoire said the job of building the new boats will be open to any Washington shipyard. Elliott Bay Design, which designed the Pierce County boats, is being asked to come up with a design for the new state boats within two months, said Hammond. After that, there will be a four-week advertisement for bids for the boats.seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004071346_ferries14m.html
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 14, 2007 7:45:00 GMT -8
Cool! Now do you have one drawn up that looks like the Christine Anderson in WSF livery? Just curious as to how one of those would look...
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 14, 2007 13:17:24 GMT -8
Hmmm. I think I'd prefer it without the BCFC racing strip on the side... WSF won't be re-designing their paint scheme anytime soon for the rest of the fleet.
But not without redeeming qualities... I wonder at what speed her bow/stern thrusters cease to be effective? In my very limited experience, they tend to be pretty much useless at speeds above three knots.
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Dec 14, 2007 21:16:40 GMT -8
Well Ferrynutseattle gave me the idea to draw a few ferries also, and with all the talk about the SE's and what is coming to replace them I thought I would do the Steilacoom II as the way it is now and if it ends up looking like a WSF. ====================== [Moderator edit: oversized-IMG changed to FTP-link] Here is a size that i hope works for here.
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Post by BreannaF on Dec 15, 2007 8:19:38 GMT -8
From the above mentioned Seattle Times article:
[music] A three hour tour.... A three hour tour.....[/music]
Alas, if only I had known that my last trip on a S-E (on the Quinault) would be my last. Of course, I wouldn't have done anything differently. Actually, many of my thoughts on my final trip were in re-living the memories of what the boats used to be like -- The interesting curved funnels on top, fully functional food service, the older looking design that they used to have. Really, once I think about it, those are the S-E's that I really miss. The ones that I remember from 30 years ago. Not so much the newer, remodeled S-E's.
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Post by Kahloke on Dec 15, 2007 8:36:56 GMT -8
My last trip on an SE was back in October - MV Klickitat from Keystone to PT. I was glad they pulled Nisqually out of retirement last summer as I had a chance to ride on that one a couple of times, too. I've ridden on all of the SE's at one time or another, even before they received their new houses back in the 80's, so I will miss them, too. BTW - I love Evergreenfleet's signature banner with the old Quinault. I think that one's a definite contender for the Forum Flagship should they dedicate a month to the Steel Electrics.
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 15, 2007 8:42:25 GMT -8
IMHO, the pre-furb Steel-Electrics were much more attractive than their final incarnations. That's why I can't understand the desire to "save and preserve" a steel-electric; they really aren't the same boats, except for the hulls.
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 16, 2007 8:55:40 GMT -8
I spent the last two days cussing out my website provider, but I got all the Steel E's moved over to the "Retired" section of the page. I was going to shuffle them all under one heading, but decided that each boat deserved its own page...I'm not entirely happy with the text but they're up, along with a fair amount of photos of them I'd not used before. Take a look and let me know what you think.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 16, 2007 9:47:55 GMT -8
Take a look and let me know what you think. for those who want to take a look: the website address is: www.evergreenfleet.com(the man himself might want to add his website address to his signature....just a suggestion re publicity....
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Post by Ferryman on Dec 16, 2007 11:08:07 GMT -8
Ok, so now that the Steel Electrics have gotten the axe from the fleet unfortunately (even though it was time). Any idea as to what exactly will happen now with them? Seeming they've already ripped the hull of the Quinault and Illahee all apart...will they just continue to tear it apart to scrap them? Or will they be put back together enough to be able to float somewhat to be hauled off to a third world Country to be scrapped?
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