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Post by Barnacle on Mar 4, 2012 14:04:56 GMT -8
Didn't it take over a year for the Elwha's drive motor? Eight or nine months, actually. The rest of the time was involved in getting the new control system installed, tested, aligned, and generally convinced it was happy. And the drive motor took so long in that case because it had to go back to the mother-ship and get re-done after it failed inspection upon arrival.
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Post by zargoman on Mar 20, 2012 9:20:24 GMT -8
Klahowya is running sea trials. She just crossed the Evergreen's bow. That would have been a great photo from shore...all three sisters in one shot.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Mar 21, 2012 10:20:55 GMT -8
Klahowya is running sea trials. She just crossed the Evergreen's bow. That would have been a great photo from shore...all three sisters in one shot. I tried that once back in 2008. It turned out to be rather difficult. The ferries were on the winter schedule, but they were running all three boats on the weekend (they generally only run two on the weekend schedule in the winter). I got down to the dock when there were two boats in the dock and one was waiting to dock. Unfortunately the boat waiting to get in was too far away to really get a good picture (I may have managed to get all three in the picture, but I'll have to check).
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Post by zargoman on Mar 29, 2012 18:02:42 GMT -8
It has also been my experience that getting a good shot with all three boats on the run (on any day) is challenging. Once again, the Klahowya is supposed to be entering service by the start of next week...We'll see if it will actually happen this time. I have not seen the Klahowya since doing any more sea trials...I hope they didn't find another problem.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Mar 30, 2012 13:41:33 GMT -8
The Klahowya has returned to service.
I wonder what the "mechanical issues" are.
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chief
Chief Steward
Posts: 117
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Post by chief on Mar 30, 2012 17:25:41 GMT -8
The immediate answer is that the WWII drive motors are unable to take the full power of the newish diesel generators. The three vessels have been limited to 70% power to reduce the risk that a major casualty particular to DC machines called a "flash over" does not occur.
I see one poster observed a lack of smoke on familiar departures. That is no doubt due to the directive to take it easy on the systems. That smoke the public was accustomed to was due to the application of sudden high levels of throttle on departure common to some WSF quartermasters.
What it does is cause an imbalance in the fuel and air mixture in the engine until the engine gets up to speed and power levels. I suspect that there will be much less smoke at Vashon for a while.
The ES Class drive motors, (particularly the Klahowya) need to be rewound as the permanent solution to the problem although the state is going to try to install power conditioners in order to avoid the cost and schedule impact of the permament solution.
The Klahowya, Evergreen State and the Tillikum all have drive motors and reduction gears that were salvaged out of WWII destroyer escorts. They may be the last WWII ship propulsion systems still in service any where in the world. They are tired and have far surpassed the life expectency their designers anticipated. It is noteworthy to point out that the reduction in power is a temporary measure, it is obvious that the insulation is failing at a rate which requires more decisive action but the challenge is to find the time and the money to do this job properly. In spite of their current age, WSF will need to keep at least two of these vessels running for another 20 years.
At the same time this is going on they have a similar situation developing in the Super Class, particularly the DC generators on Hyak, Kaleetan and Yakima. This problem was recognized a decade ago and resulted in the ill-fated new DC generators of King 5 fame that cannot be used. The conditions they were intended to resolve are still present in that class and still account for the largest number of labor hours consumed by any class in the fleet.
It would be possible to take the ES class out of service one at a time to do the work if WSF were to reactivate Rhody long enough to allow Chetzemoka work the Vashon or interisland run so that a major project as noted above could be undertaken. The long leg of that project would be rebuilding the reduction gears.
The WSF maintenance plan has been hit hard by the loss of the Steels, building of their replacements and delay of the 144s in numbers. It is a house of cards.
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Post by hergfest on Mar 30, 2012 22:44:30 GMT -8
In the press release for the start of constuction of the new 144 boat, it was mentioned that they may build up to 4 of the new class pending funding, which would replace all three Evergreen Class vessels. "WSF has a contract with US Fab for design and construction of up to four 144-car ferries contingent on available funding. The Legislature funded a second 144-car ferry this session."
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chief
Chief Steward
Posts: 117
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Post by chief on Mar 31, 2012 4:25:35 GMT -8
They might do that, probably the Evergreen State for sure but as for Klahowya and Tillikum they would be replacing small ships with lower expenses (fuel and labor) with larger ones during a period in which tariffs and ridership are going down.
At the same time a similar technical need also exists in the Super Class. Those same new 144s would have a much more significant and beneficial impact on long term cost if they were used to replace the old 144s first and then the Klahowya and Tillikum afterwards.
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Post by zargoman on Apr 1, 2012 17:29:42 GMT -8
I heard that the "operational adjustments" are running the boats at a very reduced speed to reduce the load on the drive motors. It does not appear that is happening though, as the speed on marinetraffic is 11-12kts. Whatever the speed is, the dock workers at Southworth and Fauntleroy aren't happy. They are expecting delays due to the changes. I haven't seen any documents that say exactly what is going on, so I'm going to keep digging.
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Post by zargoman on Apr 1, 2012 19:55:51 GMT -8
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Post by sounder on Apr 1, 2012 20:37:10 GMT -8
I was on both the Klahowya and Tillikum yesterday and it seemed like they were running at normal speeds and on schedule. The triangle is short enough that boats can start stacking up on each other if they get off schedule. I am curious if this will impact the Issaquah if those two boats will indeed start running at slower speeds.
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Post by chokai on Apr 2, 2012 11:24:12 GMT -8
Based on chief's comments about avoiding sudden full application of the throttle I'd bet they are watching the acceleration out of the docks. Then the worries about holding schedule would make sense as it would take them longer to get up to speed, though once there they'd still run at 11-12 or so as you noted.
Hopefully with both 144's coming in the next two years and the KdTs to take the Interisland over in the winter they can work out a way to pull out one older boat each winter for some heavy duty work. Klahowya and Tillikum weren't slated to be retired until like 2020 anyways in the last long range plan so they are obviously going to need some TLC if things are as they appear.
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Post by zargoman on Apr 2, 2012 15:45:41 GMT -8
I was on the Klahowya today and we left Fauntleroy 7 minutes late and arrived Southworth 7 minutes late. It was a 25 minute crossing ("express" trip). Normally, it takes 20-22 minutes for the trip. There's definitely a reduction in speed. The engines sounded much quieter than normal. From what I've been able to gather, the drive motor was in fact not replaced, just repaired. I didn't have a chance to talk with an engineer, so this is second-hand info, but the info is consistent. They are saying that there is something that is sparking when the boat gets up to a certain speed and that they want to keep it below that speed. This is where things get sort of vague...One version is that the sparking is normal and there's no problem with running it as they previously did. The other version is that something funny happened with a refurbishment in 2003 and it resulted in some sort of incompatibility between parts. It's always hard to get straight-forward information here. Right now, the Klahowya is only 3 minutes late (but the Issaquah is waiting on her) and the Tillikum is 7 minutes late.
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chief
Chief Steward
Posts: 117
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Post by chief on Apr 3, 2012 5:40:04 GMT -8
The thing that is sparking is the commutator on the drive motors. This is the rotating electrical switch that supplies power to the windings in the motor. If the sparking is excessive it will cause significant deterioration of the rotating copper segments that are connected to individual windings. It also resorts in shortened times between maintenance requirements.
Sparking can be due to many things but in the case of vessels which generate AC power in their generators but use DC power in the drive motors like the ES and Steel Electric classes the causes can also be related to the quality of the power being produced. Many of these hybrid systems (AC to DC) have harmonics and poor power quality going to the drive motors that cause sparking.
One problem this creates is the power quality makes it difficult for engineers to determine if the insulation in the motors is deteriorating. There are many internal faults that can occur inside the drive motors that also cause sparking. These can be as simple as poor surfaces on the commutator, to loose soldiered connections in the pole windings or interpole windings. Even chemicals in the engine room atmosphere such as the silicon from paint fumes or sulfur from sewage fumes can cause sparking.
In vessels with 70 year old drive motors like these, it is never wise to rule out deterioration within the drive motor, particularly if there is a sudden increase in the amount of sparking present in the commutator.
If the sparking condition these vessels are experiencing now is significantly worse than it was after the installation of the controls several years ago, then it seems likely that the problem does not lay with the controls.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,947
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Post by FNS on Apr 3, 2012 6:54:19 GMT -8
On board the ES-Class, are the lighting and equipment powered by the main generators, or is there a separate generator for these?
I remember riding the SE's very well when they had their wooden cabins. Every time these changed speeds, directions, and when the steering engine was changing the vessel's courses, the incandescent light bulbs would momentarily change in brightness, especially during the night crossings. I think this was an indication that the electrical for the lights and equipment aboard a pre-steel-cabin-ed SE came directly from the main GM generators. I loved the way the light bulbs reacted to the machinery, especially during night crossings aboard the Steel-Electric ferries in their old configuration.
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chief
Chief Steward
Posts: 117
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Post by chief on Apr 3, 2012 12:16:19 GMT -8
Hello Ferry Nut:
The original Steel Electrics all had seperate generators to power their lighting and "hotel" services. Later, when the Illahee, Quinault and Nisqually were repowered with the Ross-Hill propulsion systems they eliminated the need for auxiliary generators and were able to take power from the main engine generators. The Klickitat was renovated earlier and so retained the ship's service generator system mentioned.
If you saw the lighting system affected by the ship's manuevering I would suspect it was because of the steering gear which were also powered by the auxiliary generators. Steering can be a very large electrical load especially when the deckies are using large rudder inputs with the ship moving at a relatively high speed.
This sudden electrical load slows down the generator a little bit until the governor on the generator can respond. Since the generator must maintain a constant speed in order to provide 60 cycle power, you saw the affect of lowered frequency on the lights. They dimmed and then got brighter as the generator sped back up.
The Evergreen State Class have two different control systems Ross-Hill and General Electric. Essentially they operate the same way as the three renovated Steel Electrics did. The diesel electric ships in the fleet which still use an auxiliary generator for the "hotel" loads are Spokane, Walla, Hyak, Kaleetan and Yakima. The remainder of the diesel electrics, MKIIs, Elwha, ES Class all use main engine power to produce all electricity on the ship. Some people call this an "Island" power concept.
Getting power from the main engines reduces the number of diesels that must be maintained but it forces the diesel to run at a constant speed no matter what electrical loads exist. A lightly loaded diesel is not efficient and can have problems like wet stacking or stack fires.
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Post by chokai on Apr 5, 2012 8:51:35 GMT -8
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Post by zargoman on Apr 24, 2012 4:20:26 GMT -8
Klahowya is now out of service for her scheduled maintenance and the Tillikum is back at her full speed.
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Post by chokai on May 11, 2012 15:44:33 GMT -8
The latest maintenance schedule shows Klahowya as spending the entire summer as the standby boat followed by yard time with Sealth working the triangle route.
Are her drive engines in worse shape than Evergreen and Tillikum?
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Post by lavalamp on Jun 7, 2012 16:19:48 GMT -8
WSF is attempting to mitigate the Klahowya's slowness:
Faunt/Va/SW temporary change in loading procedure for Klahowya Beginning Friday, June 8, walk-on passengers will be loaded onto the Klahowya after all vehicles have been loaded. This change is being made to expedite loading and help keep the Klahowya on schedule. To preserve aging equipment on the vessel, the Klahowya is being operated at speeds that do not allow it to make up for any unforeseen delays on the Fauntleroy/Vashon/Southworth route's tight schedule. The Klahowya will be replaced by the faster 87-car Tillikum beginning with the summer schedule on Sunday, June 17, and normal loading procedures will be in place with the Tillikum (walk-on passengers will be loaded prior to vehicle loading).
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,947
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Post by FNS on Jun 7, 2012 21:59:02 GMT -8
Hello Ferry Nut: The original Steel Electrics all had seperate generators to power their lighting and "hotel" services. Later, when the Illahee, Quinault and Nisqually were repowered with the Ross-Hill propulsion systems they eliminated the need for auxiliary generators and were able to take power from the main engine generators. The Klickitat was renovated earlier and so retained the ship's service generator system mentioned. If you saw the lighting system affected by the ship's manuevering I would suspect it was because of the steering gear which were also powered by the auxiliary generators. Steering can be a very large electrical load especially when the deckies are using large rudder inputs with the ship moving at a relatively high speed. This sudden electrical load slows down the generator a little bit until the governor on the generator can respond. Since the generator must maintain a constant speed in order to provide 60 cycle power, you saw the affect of lowered frequency on the lights. They dimmed and then got brighter as the generator sped back up. The Evergreen State Class have two different control systems Ross-Hill and General Electric. Essentially they operate the same way as the three renovated Steel Electrics did. The diesel electric ships in the fleet which still use an auxiliary generator for the "hotel" loads are Spokane, Walla, Hyak, Kaleetan and Yakima. The remainder of the diesel electrics, MKIIs, Elwha, ES Class all use main engine power to produce all electricity on the ship. Some people call this an "Island" power concept. Getting power from the main engines reduces the number of diesels that must be maintained but it forces the diesel to run at a constant speed no matter what electrical loads exist. A lightly loaded diesel is not efficient and can have problems like wet stacking or stack fires. Thanks for the lesson, "Chief". The VASHON had a unique character herself in regards to her lighting. She had two Washington Iron Works Estep engines. The big eight-cylinder powered her propellers and the smaller two-cylinder powered her lighting and equipment. The timing of the "Little Estep"'s rocker arms was such as they rocked the same time. This resulted in the hearing of "click" "click" "click" in the Engine Room and a "pop" "pop" "pop" from the stack. Even though the "Little Estep" generator had a flywheel, the forces of the gears that caused the rocker arms to do their things resulted in a distortion of the spin and a constant flicker of the incandescent light bulbs in the cabin, hull, and Main Deck. Very noticeable in the night. This made the VASHON such a fun ferry to ride. Looks like the KLAHOWYA may be the second ES-Class ferry to retire, when the second new 144-car ferry enters service, due to her tired machinery.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Jun 8, 2012 13:52:00 GMT -8
The maintenance schedule shows the Klahowya going into drydock (Dakota Creek) in September.
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Jun 10, 2012 13:28:12 GMT -8
Hi, there! I am back. Never thought I would end up here. Anyway, I am curious. Could the Inter-Island run in the San Juans survive with a slightly slower boat? If so, why not just send the Klahowya up there and have the Evergreen be a standby vessel? I do not like the Klahowya, but that is just my opinion and most other people have an opposite opinion. The San Juans loved it when the Klahowya was there temporarily in '07. Plus, to my knowledge, she has Wi-fi, which IS a nice feature. So why not just have Klahowya spend her summer vacation in the Islands?
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Post by Barnacle on Jun 10, 2012 15:01:36 GMT -8
Hi, there! I am back. Never thought I would end up here. Anyway, I am curious. Could the Inter-Island run in the San Juans survive with a slightly slower boat? If so, why not just send the Klahowya up there and have the Evergreen be a standby vessel? I do not like the Klahowya, but that is just my opinion and most other people have an opposite opinion. The San Juans loved it when the Klahowya was there temporarily in '07. Plus, to my knowledge, she has Wi-fi, which IS a nice feature. So why not just have Klahowya spend her summer vacation in the Islands? 1) Slightly slower than what? The Evergreen State? 2) WSF has no standby vessels. Every boat that is out right now is out for maintenance, emergency repairs, or decommissioned. 3) The Klahowya may be set up for Wi-Fi, but in a region that barely has cell phone service, that tends to fall in the category of "Big Whoop."
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Post by SS San Mateo on Jun 13, 2012 9:09:13 GMT -8
Of the 4 times I've been on the Klahowya since the boarding procedure change went into effect, the new procedure was only used once (this past Monday on the 5:40 PM sailing from Fauntleroy).
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