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Post by kylefossett on Feb 23, 2008 2:50:49 GMT -8
yes in the summer there is a sunday morning swartz bay-long harbour sailing. this is done to get the queen of cumberland or mayne queen (unsure which one) to long harbour to take tsawwassen bound traffic to village bay to transfer to the route 9 vessel. has ben on the schedule for many years. i do remember the route 9 vessel doing a long harbour-swartz bay sailing. if i remember correct it was on friday afternoons but it was many years ago, 15+.
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 23, 2008 12:05:34 GMT -8
Sorry Neil but you must be missing a few schedules. Not hard to do since there were so many. I had the conversation with the gentleman from Saturna on the car deck of the ferry as he was waiting to disembark at Village bay. They probably recalled the faulty schedules and re printed them properly. What got to me was the reply from management that the Naniamo/Horseshoe ferry would stop at Saturna so it would be no problem. I can't tell you here the language the gentleman used to describe BC Ferries managemant.
The run from SWB to LH was only for a few months. The schedule gave a long layover at LH so since the crew was on board anyway it was decided to run the rte 9 ship from SWB/LH. It was not printed in the schedule nor was it advertized. In fact the employees at SWB were told to refuse to allow people on it. Ross Harris was the local manager at the time.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,151
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Post by Neil on Feb 23, 2008 23:24:25 GMT -8
A return trip from Long Harbour to Swartz Bay, in an almost impossibly tight time frame, which BC Ferries inexplicably refused to publicize, or even to allow passengers on.... and a management directive to Saturna Islanders to take the Departure Bay - Horseshoe Bay ferry.... Should this thread maybe be re-titled, "Urban Legends, Ferries Division?"
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 24, 2008 17:10:21 GMT -8
I wish it were urban legend but unfortunately since I worked on the ferry at that time and talked to the gentleman personally it is not. I could tell you a lot more factual things which sound so strange you would not believe them. For example when BCFC was trying to get rid of rte 9 they left it out of automated telephone system so you could not make enquiries about it. Employees at TSA were told to re route all passengers to Saltspring via SWB and tell them that was the only route to Saltspring. They were also told to deny route 9 existed for Saltspring passengers. This led to the rather laughable situation of employees who worked on the ship and wanted to board it, looking at it in the dock and hearing the ticket agent deny it existed. One officer who worked that route went over on it from Saltspring and picked up visitors at the Vancouver airport. When he tried to return to Saltspring later that day via the route he worked on he was informed there was no such route. When I came back from Vancouver one time I was informed the route did not exist even though I could see the ship sitting there and had worked that route for years. With a lot of pressure from the islanders and employees this BS was finaly stopped. Doesn't make sense, must be an urban legend, or a very screwed up management.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 24, 2008 18:43:48 GMT -8
Kerry:
What era did the "route 9 denial" happen? Was this post-2003, or something in the 80's or 90's?
And are you saying that the officer (who had picked up visitors at YVR) went to Tsawwassen Terminal, and that there was no ticket booth or lineup available for "Southern Gulf Islands" ? Were berth's 1&2 covered in tarps? But seriously, if he went to the toll booth at Tsawwassen and asked for "gulf islands", the ticket agent told him that there is no such route? Is that what you're saying? Sounds crazy. Did they also disallow people to make reservations on the Route-9 ship?
Again, what era / regime of BC Ferries was this, and how widespread was the denial of the route?
It sounds a bit unbelievable to me, at least in the generalities that you mentioned.
If the Nanny (or whatever ship it was) arrived at Long Harbour, or Otter Cove, etc etc, are you saying that no cars would get off, it would wait 5 minutes, have no cars get on, and then leave empty?
Or was this just a specific effort of BC ferries to divert SaltSpring traffic away from Long Harbour, and to use the Swartz/Fulford through-fare instead?
Was this because of capacity problems for the route-9 ship? ie. were the Mayniacs, Galianians and Penderites taking up all the space on the Route-9 ship?
Or was this an attempt to save costs by phasing out the Long Harbour Terminal (assuming that someone thought it was ridiculous for 1 island to have 3 ferry terminals on it)
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Post by kylefossett on Feb 24, 2008 19:58:46 GMT -8
BC Ferries in the 90's wanted to axe route 9. They wanted all mainland bound traffic to use Swartz Bay and the throughfare option.
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Post by DENelson83 on Feb 24, 2008 21:16:56 GMT -8
How so? Capacity issues? Did they want to put/keep the Nanny on route 1?
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Post by kylefossett on Feb 24, 2008 22:06:04 GMT -8
How so? Capacity issues? Did they want to put/keep the Nanny on route 1? They were looking at many ways to get rid of the route altogether. BC Ferries tried to do many things in the mid 90's that if they got away with would have changed the whole setup we know today. You can thank your ferry advisory committee members for saving BC Ferries the first time the ferries needed to be saved. History repeats itself and we are seeing it now with different issues over the last couple of years.
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Post by Ferryman on Feb 24, 2008 22:36:51 GMT -8
Just wondering:
Would the shutdown of the extra terminals on the Islands such as Galiano (Montague) and Mayne Island (Miners Bay) have anything to do with the cut of Route 9? Originally one of the terminals on those Islands was dedicated to the Mainland-Gulf Island Ferry (Route 9), and the other terminal was for the Swartz Bay-Gulf Island Ferry (Route 5) I believe?
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 24, 2008 22:49:41 GMT -8
Just wondering: Would the shutdown of the extra terminals on the Islands such as Galiano (Montague) and Mayne Island (Miners Bay) have anything to do with the cut of Route 9? Originally one of the terminals on those Islands was dedicated to the Mainland-Gulf Island Ferry (Route 9), and the other terminal was for the Swartz Bay-Gulf Island Ferry (Route 5) I believe? To my knowledge BC Ferries never used Miners Bay as a terminal.
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 25, 2008 8:31:52 GMT -8
I am saying the when he went to the TSA ferry terminal there was a booth labeled Gulf Islands there was no Saltspring booth. When he tried to get a fare on rte 9 to Saltspring the ticket attendant informed him there was no such route and the only way to get to Saltspringwas via SWB. The same thing happened to me. I was at the booth looking at the Nanny in its berth while the ticket attendant denied it existed. ( under orders from management) The idea was to destroy rte 9 by re routing all traffic to rte 1. The CEO at the time was Frank Rhodes. The terminal at Montague was rarely used as it was in very bad shape and had no room for cars to line up. It was used mainly for dangerous goods trips. Miners bay never had a ferry terminal that I know of. On one schedule Rte 9 had a couple hours at LH between arrival and shift end. At the same time SWB/FUL was congested. To ease the congestion and better utilize the crew it was easy to run from LH to SWB and return. As most of the traffic was destined for the north end of the island anyway it also relieved traffic on the island roads. At least it would have if someone in management had not decided to not allow any traffic on the ship. The run was never advertised or promoted. Even the employees who knew about the run were denied access. I can give you the exact reason why it was decided to destroy rte 9. It was one persons decision. I do not want to post it here as it would seem totally bizarre, which it was. Incidentally, the SWB/FUL run makes a lot more money than is shown on paper. It is a very busy run. There is a lot of traffic which uses the Rte 1/ Ful connection via a through fare. This through fare saves the traveller the SWB/FUL cost. This is another attempt to re route traffic. The ferries actually takes a loss on the fares. All the revenue from the fares goes to rte 1 even though a lot of traffic is going to FUL, hence a lot of the traffic on the SWB/FUL does not pay a fare on that run. I know that in a culture of management always being right it is hard to believe this stuff but if it did not exist then things like Bre-X and Enron and people like Conrad Black would simply be urban myths. Flugelhorn....if you want to know the reason for the attempted destruction of rte 9 PM me and I will tell you. You will have difficulty believing it but I was there and involved.
SWB/FUL
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Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 25, 2008 10:44:24 GMT -8
So why would BC Ferries try to hide the profits some of there smaller routes makes? Is this just due to the fact that if they all lose money, BC Ferries gets a higher subsidy from the province?? If BC Ferries was still a crown corporation, couldn't the auditor general, audit the company and make them show the real costs vs revenue the routes make??
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Post by Guest on Feb 25, 2008 11:38:20 GMT -8
so we are saying that in the last 45 years - BCF made profits but no one found them - and now it is private there are more profits on the smaller routes but who ever audits this "private" company - is turning a blind eye?
Isn't that false accounting ?
Is Hahn that smart?
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Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 25, 2008 11:49:53 GMT -8
well from what everyone is saying, it seems that it is false accounting. And if this is true, the province should and in my opinion, must investigate this, because if some of the small routes make a profit, then the fares should not be increasing!! If they must increase, not definately not by the amount they are at today.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 25, 2008 12:14:35 GMT -8
so we are saying that in the last 45 years - BCF made profits but no one found them - and now it is private there are more profits on the smaller routes but who ever audits this "private" company - is turning a blind eye? Isn't that false accounting ? Is Hahn that smart? It sounds like the issues are re the allocations of items to each specific route: ie. 1) allocation of overhead based on the busy-months of the year, not on avg. 2) Fulford route throughfare revenue being allocated to Route-1, instead of shared with the Fulford route. (but then if some revenue were moved to Fulford, then the Route-1 would be understated; unless you saw this as a discounted route-1 fare?) Areas where there is room for interpretation and different options in how best to allocate something. These are areas where bias can come into play. Or at least that's how I've understood the previous posts re these items.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,151
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Post by Neil on Feb 25, 2008 13:37:02 GMT -8
The terminal at Montague was rarely used as it was in very bad shape and had no room for cars to line up. It was used mainly for dangerous goods trips. Miners bay never had a ferry terminal that I know of. On one schedule Rte 9 had a couple hours at LH between arrival and shift end. At the same time SWB/FUL was congested. To ease the congestion and better utilize the crew it was easy to run from LH to SWB and return. As most of the traffic was destined for the north end of the island anyway it also relieved traffic on the island roads. At least it would have if someone in management had not decided to not allow any traffic on the ship. The run was never advertised or promoted. Even the employees who knew about the run were denied access. You're asking us to accept something which makes absolutely no sense. Why would they have spent the money on fuel to run the boat to Swartz Bay and back, when they refused to carry passengers? The sailing time from Swartz Bay to Long Harbour is about an hour, which makes a turnaround during the afternoon break very difficult. Montague Harbour was the regular stop for the Swartz Bay - Gulf Islands ferry, up until the summer of '87.
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Post by Taxman on Feb 25, 2008 14:52:35 GMT -8
You will have difficulty believing it but I was there and involved. ... SWB/FUL Just to clarify, the reason was to encourage usage of SWB/FUL? RE: Flugels suggestions of Revenue Recognition and Allocation, to me it makes sense to allocate it proportionally to that of the full, undiscounted, fare. However, as this is mainly an internal number, there is much more lee-way as to how they allocate. And Neil, stranger things have happened. I am not an expert at BC Ferries Management, but if on time is a bonus criteria, and it was a short time frame, middle management may have decided to get the bonus, yet cost the company money.
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Post by kylefossett on Feb 25, 2008 16:18:20 GMT -8
I love how the armchair captains argue with the retired bc ferries employees and try to tell them that even though they worked on the routes and the vessels in question that what they are saying is wrong.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,151
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Post by Neil on Feb 25, 2008 16:18:38 GMT -8
[And Neil, stranger things have happened. I am not an expert at BC Ferries Management, but if on time is a bonus criteria, and it was a short time frame, middle management may have decided to get the bonus, yet cost the company money. This thread is going from ghosts to Alice in Wonderland. Curiouser and curiouser.
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 25, 2008 21:26:15 GMT -8
At 16 knots the trip from LH to Swb would hardly take an hour. It is only about 10 miles. You are right , it makes absolutely no sense but then the management of BC Ferries was never required to make sense. How do you explain a department of new ships construction, with all its managers, offices, assistants etc and they never built a new ship in 15 years? How about when the Southern Gulf Islands Transportation Committee ( which I was part of) asked BC Ferries planning dept with all their managers, assistants etc. for their 10 year plan and they didn't have one, when we asked for their 5 year plan and they didn't have one , we asked for their 1 year plan and they didn't have one. With BC Ferries you have entered the twilight zone.
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Post by DENelson83 on Feb 25, 2008 21:46:27 GMT -8
Here's an idea: How about simply consolidating routes 5 and 9 into one route, called "Swartz Bay to Tsawwassen via Southern Gulf Islands"? Then add another route that services the Gulf Islands without any stops at Swartz Bay or Tsawwassen. The Queen of Nanaimo would serve the former route, while the Bowen Queen and Queen of Cumberland do the latter route, one vessel going clockwise (Long Harbour→Sturdies Bay→Village Bay→Lyall Harbour→Otter Bay) while the other goes counterclockwise?
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Post by Hardy on Feb 26, 2008 2:08:58 GMT -8
DENelson: Stop now! You are making some semblence of sense! Quickly stop attempting to make sense of a ferry schedule!!
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Post by Hardy on Feb 26, 2008 2:18:35 GMT -8
Re: hidden revenue / revenue splitting etc etc due to Through-Fares.... Lets simplify this in to terms that more people can understand (I get it, cuz I know how it works) ... Look at the BC Transit (Translink et al) system. You pay your fare on the FIRST VEHICLE YOU ENTER and are issued a transfer. Your coins/tokens are in the farebox of the FIRST BUS/TRAIN etc and then you can ride "Free" on any subsequent bus/train/boat (ignoring zones for now). Therefore, if someone counts JUST farebox revenue, only a very few select routes are profitable (remember: counting only farebox revenue!). In the morning it would be routes coming out of residentially dense areas. In the evening it would be the ones in the commercial cores. Throw another wrinkle into this: MONTHLY PASSES. No money/tokens in the farebox and people don't always buy them where they live/work (ie buy them en route some place). So how can you tell which of several bus routes are profitable and which are not? Count noses? This gives you ridership. You cannot tell how long those noses are on which means of conveyance and how far they are going on it. Now take this example and apply it to through-fares, circle-packs, priority boarding, etc. Good luck allocating which goes where accurately without going thru and reconsiling EACH fare and seeing if it was part of another or what. Does this help anyone with this? Gulf Islands fare reconsiliation has got to be the messiest thing going. I have a BATCH if a time if I have to sail out of Tsawwassen and do deliveries on 2 or 3 Gulf Islands. Most of the time I end up on Van Island to reload or for one or two drops and then have to cross back over anyways (Route 2 or 30 usually heading up-island). Try pricing it out. In a 5 ton truck (34') I pay through the nose and the arse and ears and BCFS is still looking to pull money out another opening. I think that my last rounder was over $800 altogether and took me the whole day, coming back on the last Rte-30 sailing. Servicing the SGI out of the mainland is absurd unless you can pass along the whole fare as shipping costs somehow!
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Post by Guest on Feb 26, 2008 8:23:19 GMT -8
The hidden profit on the smaller routes is now - revenue re-allocation. Sounds right I think.
Then the statement by an (ex?) BCF employee - Kerryssi, makes it sound like something is not right - or he is been feed wrong information?
So the smaller routes can make a profit - but it gets passed around the other routes in that Group ? which don't make a profit - and the overall affect is that the group of routes - which the smaller routes are part of - make a lost.
So what route make a clean profit and what route make a clean lost inside that group.
We are talking about the Gulf Island routes - correct? .
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Post by kerryssi on Feb 26, 2008 9:15:46 GMT -8
The figures I got were from the Company. Since I worked on Saltspring that was my area of concern. When the company offered the routes for sale they realized that buyers would only be interested in profitable routes so they grouped them ( like bundles on cable or satellite) so they would have to take the unprofitable ones as well. I know the VES/CROFT run is profitable and I am positive the SWB/FUL run would be if the through fares were done away with. The least profitable runs in the southern gulf islands are the ones from SWB to the outer islands. (rts 5, 5A) The main problem there are the deadhead runs they have to make to start picking up traffic or to return to base. A good solution would be to move one ship out to LH and have it start from there. There is room for a second dock and the infrastructure is already there to support the ship. The ships would have crossing runs which would feed into rte 9. This was shown to improve service and reduce costs when it was run through the company scheduling computers. Out of the 26 programs run through the computers it was the only one that worked. It was not implemented. It boosted rte 9 instead of destroying it which was the desired result at the time. One problem is that with company policy the way it is the crew goes with the ship if it is re-located. That could be changed with a little co-operation from the company. Another thing against it was that it was put forward by the employees. " No good idea ever comes from employees" Manager, Southern Gulf Islands speaking to me.
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