Passengers who remain in their cars

[WettCoast]

Over my most recent ferry journeys I have been keeping an eye on what percentage of people remain in their cars while aboard BC Ferries. On two trips earlier this month (on routes 1 & 2) I was rather surprised to see that maybe 25% of vehicles on the car deck were occupied during the trip. I have some comments and questions for others about this.

- It is understandable that on short haul routes like Saanich Inlet passengers would stay in their cars. Being predominantly open decked ferries one can, to some extent, still take in the view.

- On long haul northern routes passengers are not permitted to stay in their cars. But I wonder how many would if it was allowed?

- Staying on the car deck on the main Georgia Strait crossings of 90 to 120 minutes seems to be more popular than ever. Why? Are there more people doing this than in the past?

- Is BC Ferries accepting excessive risk in allowing people to do this? If a ship had to be abandoned would 'this practice' significantly hinder speed and effectiveness? Do passengers on the car deck do really stupid things like smoke in their cars, or operate propane cooking equipment inside their RV's? I have personally spoken to people smoking on the car deck in the past.

- Should this practice of remaining in cars be stopped, at least for longer duration trips on car decks that are pretty much closed in (e.g. ferries operating on routes 1, 2, 3, 30, etc)?

- Passenger deck space is often crowded now and would get more crowded if people were not permitted to remain on the car deck. Would that be a bad thing?

- BC Ferries has a great desire to increase their 'secondary revenue stream'. Getting people off the car decks could help with this. On the other hand people might be staying on the car decks in part to avoid the gift shops such that will relieve them of yet more money. I am sure that many travellers already feel as if the amound spent on fares is excessive in itself.

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I welcome the thoughts of others. Also, this topic may have been discussed sometime in a previous thread. If so I trust that the moderators will choose to do some consolidation.

[Scott]

This is a good topic. I would say from experience that staying in my car is sometimes preferrable to being on the passenger decks. For me, it has to be a good parking spot to make me do it. Either right in the front with an open view or beside a window with fresh air blowing in. I don't do it often. It's easier and more comfortable to have a nap in your car than upstairs. Tilt the seat back, open the window, and it's great!

I find all the larger ferries with the exception of the Super-Cs get very crowded anywhere near a full load. You can't find seats, there are line-ups, even the outside deck seating is often full (and when the weather is bad, it's even worse).

From a safety standpoint, there's no question that people on the car decks would be at greater risk in case of an accident. Maybe it's so unlikely for something like that to happen in the protected waters of Georgia Strait that it's not a big concern. Some people are required to be down there if they have pets (without a vehicle) and there are always crew members down there, and below deck as well. There must be some sort of plan to deal with passengers on the vehicle decks if a serious incident did happen.

[lmtengs]

Only once have I ever remained on the car deck for the entirety of a sailing. That was on the Queen of Cowichan last summer heading from HSB to DPB. I had forgotten my camera at home, and it was the start of my little Pacific Rim adventure, so I was a little depressed. I caught the next ferry back as a footie, went all the way home on transit, then back again and caught the last sailing of the day to Departure Bay!

But really, on the Queen of Cowichan on route 2 during the summer, what's to miss?

[Neil]

My older brother doesn't like kids, ferry food, or crowds, and regards the ferry trip as an expensive necessity for getting to where he wants to go, so he always stays in his car. I'm always surprised at the number of people who camp out in their vehicles, even if they're on the lower deck, with no windows. But I guess for a lot of people, the four hundredth crossing of Georgia Strait just isn't a big scenic event, and the privacy of their own vehicle is more attractive.

Very rough math indicates that BC Ferries is probably aproaching a million crossings of Georgia Strait in fifty years, and given the almost complete lack of fatal or even just dangerous incidents in that time, it would be pretty stupid for either Transport Canada or BC Ferries to try to sell a safety factor as a reason to force everyone to vacate the car decks while under way. The relatively small number of people who do stay below probably aren't a big drain on onboard revenue. Hopefully people will continue to have a choice.

[Northern Exploration]

Jul 26, 2011 8:50:00 GMT -8 Neil said:

My older brother doesn't like kids, ferry food, or crowds, and regards the ferry trip as an expensive necessity for getting to where he wants to go, so he always stays in his car. I'm always surprised at the number of people who camp out in their vehicles, even if they're on the lower deck, with no windows. But I guess for a lot of people, the four hundredth crossing of Georgia Strait just isn't a big scenic event, and the privacy of their own vehicle is more attractive.

Very rough math indicates that BC Ferries is probably aproaching a million crossings of Georgia Strait in fifty years, and given the almost complete lack of fatal or even just dangerous incidents in that time, it would be pretty stupid for either Transport Canada or BC Ferries to try to sell a safety factor as a reason to force everyone to vacate the car decks while under way. The relatively small number of people who do stay below probably aren't a big drain on onboard revenue. Hopefully people will continue to have a choice.

Without commenting on the pros and cons of the safety issue itself, IMHO the choice of whether to ride in one's car or not, should hardly be in the hands passengers. This same rational is used all the time by passengers on aircraft, for any number of ridiculous things. People demonstrate everyday an immense capacity for stupidity, or self interest over common sense, in dozens of areas, beyond transport. The passenger buys a ticket for passage, not buying a share in the company, nor the right to vote on the rules of passage. Why is it that someone often has to die, get maimed, or other serious event, before a businesses has its right to set the rules respected.

[Ferryman]

On the Large vessels, there is always a Deckhand on Car Deck Patrol. There's a set of two Deckhands designated for each deck so they can spell each other off for relief on meal breaks, and lookout duties. So on the Nanaimo, and other single deck enclosed ships, there's one set of car deck patrol. But on the Spirits, and other double car deck ships, they have two deckhands for the Main Car deck, and another two for the Upper Car deck. When the ship is underway, their duty is mainly a fire watch and generally keeping an eye on the passengers. To add to that, the off duty Quartermaster (off duty as in not steering) will be making fire and security rounds as well with the detex on every deck, every hour. The detex is the little blue wand you might see a deckhand carrying, and connecting it with the checkpoints along each deck. On the Northern Ships, I've heard from other Deckhands who work up there, that there is no car deck patrol when the car deck is locked out from the public.

Honestly, I don't see anything on the horizon for anything changing with people staying in their cars. But you just never know.

[Neil]

Jul 26, 2011 9:22:40 GMT -8 Northern Exploration said:

Jul 26, 2011 8:50:00 GMT -8 Neil said:

My older brother doesn't like kids, ferry food, or crowds, and regards the ferry trip as an expensive necessity for getting to where he wants to go, so he always stays in his car. I'm always surprised at the number of people who camp out in their vehicles, even if they're on the lower deck, with no windows. But I guess for a lot of people, the four hundredth crossing of Georgia Strait just isn't a big scenic event, and the privacy of their own vehicle is more attractive.

Very rough math indicates that BC Ferries is probably aproaching a million crossings of Georgia Strait in fifty years, and given the almost complete lack of fatal or even just dangerous incidents in that time, it would be pretty stupid for either Transport Canada or BC Ferries to try to sell a safety factor as a reason to force everyone to vacate the car decks while under way. The relatively small number of people who do stay below probably aren't a big drain on onboard revenue. Hopefully people will continue to have a choice.

Without commenting on the pros and cons of the safety issue itself, IMHO the choice of whether to ride in one's car or not, should hardly be in the hands passengers. This same rational is used all the time by passengers on aircraft, for any number of ridiculous things. People demonstrate everyday an immense capacity for stupidity, or self interest over common sense, in dozens of areas, beyond transport. The passenger buys a ticket for passage, not buying a share in the company, nor the right to vote on the rules of passage. Why is it that someone often has to die, get maimed, or other serious event, before a businesses has its right to set the rules respected.

We let people stand up while riding busses, because decades of experience has shown that that is an acceptable risk. I think a million passages across the strait involving hundreds of millions of passengers, virtually without incident, establishes the same thing.

[Blisswood]

I never stay on the car deck on a Route 1 crossing – I always thought you were supposed to go upstairs. The Gulf Islands and Brentwood-Mill Bay are different, being open-deck ships (except Queen of Nanaimo, of course).
When did the rule come into effect – was it done by Black Ball/CP, and BC Ferries continued it? Or did it happen as a result of the Queen of Victoria accident (02 Aug 1970)? It’s my understanding two of the three people killed were on the car deck. I always assumed the collision was the reason for that rule, but I’ve never been able to verify this. Has it recently been changed – or is it not enforced as much?

[piglet]

I seem to recall that is was the Queen of Victoria accident that brought the no riding on the car deck as I recall that one person was killed in their car.

[hullnumbers]

That is untrue piglet, the Queen of Victoria accident would not do that for one person. That only happened once and it could have been prevented. It did however change the way the crew handle a ship. But the no riding on the car deck has been around longer. Back in the old days rules were never tightley watched unlike today.

The MS Estonia, MS Herald of free enterprise, TEV Wahine, MV Princess Victoria, SS Iroquois (Sank near Sidney BC) and of course our very own Queen of the north. Other ferries including steam boats that carried vehicles also had dangers and later improved by rules.

Any boxed in ferries are a trap for passengers in their vehicle. Ask yourself these question. How long would it take from your vehicle to a upper deck or lifeboat deck for an escape. And if our vehicle is half filled with water, theres the water pressure. You would be trapped by pressure and drown. Oh and we can't forget the temperature of the water or the movement of objects that would be in the way and kill you.

The Queen of the North broke BC Ferries back, which made them make the small changes. Other countries may have other rules but in a marine world it would have to be a big desaster to cause an uproar. Such as the estonia desaster or herald of free enterprise.

[lmtengs]

People are talking as if there's a rule in place right now preventing people from staying on the car deck. The only ships where this rule is implemented are the Queen of Chilliwack, Northern Adventure, Northern Expedition, and our former Queen of Prince Rupert and Queen of the North.

I'm not sure of the Nimpkish, because she's an open-decked ferry, but then she does serve the Northern routes. Could we have some clarification there?

On all the southern routes, except for on route 7 or 17 when the Queen of Chilliwack is serving in replacement for the route's usual vessel, passengers ARE permitted to remain on the vehicle deck for the duration of the sailing. There are no rules/regulations/laws banning it. Of course BCF does encourage passengers to go to the upper decks, likely for cash-grab reasons.

[WettCoast]

We have in BC a legal requirement for bicycle riders to wear a helmet. This is the law! Is this enforced? - no.

It very well could be a similar situation with remaining on the car deck - there is a rule but it is not enforced. I do recall some discussion following the Q Victoria Active Pass accident. I believe there were two car deck fatalities (a mother & baby) plus a third passenger fatality (who was top side) in that accident. It would be interesting to do some research and find out what if anything did come out of this accident in the way of changed rules with respect to remaining on the car deck.

I will agree with many others that the likelihood of something happening that would result in a catastrophic loss of life to people remaining on the car deck is very low.

Neil has stated above that

The relatively small number of people who do stay below

I would submit that it is not a 'relatively small number of people who remain below' but is in fact a significant number of people, perhaps as many as 25% of the total passenger count. I would ask that fellow ferry forum members take the time in upcoming trips to check on this. Is my 25% number way high? Is the number more like 10%?

For our US members, what is the practice on WS Ferries? Does it vary by vessel and/or route? I am fairly sure that car decks are out of bounds for passengers on AMHS vessels, but there may be exceptions.

Have I ever remained on the car deck?

No, never on a short haul crossing. That would be much too boring. Although, as John H has stated, I might just do this if I was upfront on the UCD of a Coastal, Spirit or C-class. That is like being on an open car deck ferry.

As for long haul ferries, I have a confession - I once slept in the VW camper van I once owned, on the car deck of the QPR. I, along with two friends, had the 'top popped' on the VW Westfalia. We slept well. This was in the spring of 1987. Was this risky? Perhaps. This is, of course, no longer permitted.

[mrdot]

:)further on this car deck issue, that story I related on the Prince Rupert M>L>A> is true of many over the years of my ferry work and travels. I have always gone topside on major vessels but stayed in the car on many Kootenay Bay crossings and other minor vessels as this can be the best place of all on these minor vessel crossings! Also on the shipspotters site this morning is a very good shot of my old QPR all ready to go, at Deas dock! :)mrdot.

[Koastal Karl]

I know on the MV Coho you are not allowed on the car deck unless accompanied by a crew member! I have seen lots of people in their cars on WSF routes as most of those route are commuter routes and alot of people dont even bother to go up top.

[Deleted]

Who cares if people ride on the car deck or not? As a former deckhand who did many car deck patrols, there were a few concerns that got particular attention .... smoking ( yes, people smoke pot in their cars with the windows up and think you can't smell it), engines running, and serious boozing ( drivers) ... people choose to remain in their cars for many reasons and we don't need more regulations than we already have to enforce. I'd be more concerned that BCF can't have an accurate count of the number of passengers aboard. I'm sure they err on the side of caution. They can estimate by counting footies but the numbers in vehicles rely on people's honesty when they buy a ticket and if all the vehicles paid for get on a particular sailing. If some vehicles don't, how many people got on? As far as risk goes, if an airplane crashed on an upper deck then it would probably be less risky to be in your vehicle! Another example was the Queen of Surrey engine room fire. On that run, many people remain on the car deck . There were no casualties and I can't recall any of the crew citing problems with passengers. Risk and danger are relative things and need to be viewed from that perspective. I think Neil has it right ... if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Mike C]

For me, personally, I have stayed on the car deck at grand total of once - 9:00 Queen of Oak Bay sailing, had been driving since the early morning, and I conked out in the passenger seat for the duration of the sailing (my dad at the wheel of course).

Typically, though, when traveling on Route 30, after about 90 minutes, my tolerance of screaming children and crowds runs out. I'll sit in the car, turn on the music, maybe get some work done and put my seat back. The main reason I go up in the first place is because I am almost always hungry but I have seen the scenery on the Nanaimo routes ten thousand times. Nothing terribly special.

No, I am not one of those idiots who is smoking pot, drinking a booze, or sits with his engine running (I do not think it takes a rocket scientist to know what happens when carbon monoxide gets trapped in an enclosed area). But sometimes, I appreciate my peace and my space.

[Scott]

From my experience, I would say that 25% of people staying in their cars is probably a little high of an estimate for the major routes. Maybe 15-20%. I've seen people watching movies in their motorhomes and minivans, people staying with their pets in their cars, and just sleeping. When I was on the Queen of Oak Bay on a Sunday afternoon in July, there were also quite a few people standing at the bow and stern of the upper car deck, just like the other car decks.

I agree with those that point out that the risk is so low, that it's acceptable. We could go all the way and make sure everyone is wearing a lifejacket while they're on the ferry... which theoretically could save a life sometime in the next 100 years. The worst accident while underway on the south coast was probably the Queen of Victoria collision, and now that large commercial vessels aren't allowed in Active Pass, the likelyhood of that happening again is pretty low.

On the Queen of Alberni grounding could be used as a good reason to keep people off the car decks. I believe there were instances in that case of semi-trailers tipping over onto the vehicles parked beside them - was there not a race horse killed in that accident?

The Queen of Surrey fire could also be used as a reason to keep people on the passenger decks. No one was hurt, but I believe the deck plating got very hot directly above the fire. That could be dangerous, but there would probably be enough time to evacuate the car decks before it got too bad. Something more instantaneous like a bomb would be more dangerous... but how far are we going to go to prepare for that?

The idea of water flooding the vehicle decks and people being drowned in their cars is pretty far fetched. I can't see anything of that magnitude happening in our sheltered waters, and if one of the ferries was to go under, it wouldn't go down very fast. Even if there were people on the car decks on the Queen of the North, would they not have had time and opportunity to get out?

[SS San Mateo]

Jul 27, 2011 11:29:17 GMT -8 WettCoast said:

For our US members, what is the practice on WS Ferries? Does it vary by vessel and/or route?

On WSF vessels, you are allowed to stay in your vehicle. I don't know if the international route has special rules concerning this or not.

[Low Light Mike]

Jul 27, 2011 18:03:02 GMT -8 SS San Mateo said:

On WSF vessels, you are allowed to stay in your vehicle. I don't know if the international route has special rules concerning this or not.

When I took the International route last October, I had no problems accessing the car-deck during the voyage.

[glasseye]

Jul 27, 2011 9:25:43 GMT -8 hullnumbers said:

Any boxed in ferries are a trap for passengers in their vehicle. Ask yourself these question. How long would it take from your vehicle to a upper deck or lifeboat deck for an escape.

Marine evacuations are not quick events. It takes 25 minutes to evacuate a Coastal. Unless the majority of passengers are on the car deck, the extra ten minutes it'll take to get from the car deck to the MES muster stations is irrelevant to total evacuation times because car deck passengers will be waiting for upper deck passengers to get into the slides first.

And if our vehicle is half filled with water, theres the water pressure.

ROROs roll over and/or sink like rocks once they get water on the car deck. A ferry will capsize long before partial submersion of vehicles becomes an issue.

Jul 27, 2011 17:38:50 GMT -8 Scott said:

I can't see anything of that magnitude happening in our sheltered waters, and if one of the ferries was to go under, it wouldn't go down very fast.

I think the greatest risk for rapid sinking for the southern routes would be collision with a freighter. Traffic to the port of Vancouver crosses the TSA ferry routes almost at right angles. A side-on hit from a fast moving ship could potentially cut a ferry in half or at compromise enough compartments to sink one very rapidly.


I think the biggest hazard from passengers on the vehicle deck is the potential for fire. One careless idiot with a cigarette and you've got a vehicle fire in a confined space.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Jul 27, 2011 18:03:02 GMT -8 @visioned said:

Jul 27, 2011 11:29:17 GMT -8 WettCoast said:

For our US members, what is the practice on WS Ferries? Does it vary by vessel and/or route?

On WSF vessels, you are allowed to stay in your vehicle. I don't know if the international route has special rules concerning this or not.

I can't comment for the present regs, but anytime I traveled the international route in the past, the only reason you weren't allowed on the car deck was due to inclement weather.

[EGfleet]

Jul 27, 2011 20:34:26 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

Jul 27, 2011 18:03:02 GMT -8 SS San Mateo said:

On WSF vessels, you are allowed to stay in your vehicle. I don't know if the international route has special rules concerning this or not.

When I took the International route last October, I had no problems accessing the car-deck during the voyage.

About the only time WSF will insist passengers leave the car deck is in really really bad weather. I can only think of a few times where they have insisted passengers leave the car deck for the passenger cabin in rough seas. Otherwise, you're free to come and go as you want--international run included.

On hot summer days (which we've not had for two years running now) you'll find quite a few people on the Sidney run opting for the much cooler car deck.

[KE7JFF]

I've done it a few times. I normally like to people watch on the other deck, but if I want to take a nap, the car is the best spot.

When ever I think of potential disasters on ferries, I think of the some of the old rules my grandfather talked about on the Great Lakes ferries like your gas tank must be either empty or 1/8 full...and of course they didn't allow passengers unless you had a fancy "open deck" ferry.

[D'Elete BC in NJ]

Jul 28, 2011 7:53:26 GMT -8 EGfleet said:

Jul 27, 2011 20:34:26 GMT -8 Low Light Mike said:

When I took the International route last October, I had no problems accessing the car-deck during the voyage.

About the only time WSF will insist passengers leave the car deck is in really really bad weather. I can only think of a few times where they have insisted passengers leave the car deck for the passenger cabin in rough seas...

Yeah, I was onboard one of those times... ;D

[Mike C]

Jul 29, 2011 3:37:08 GMT -8 D'Elete BC in NJ said:

Jul 28, 2011 7:53:26 GMT -8 EGfleet said:

About the only time WSF will insist passengers leave the car deck is in really really bad weather. I can only think of a few times where they have insisted passengers leave the car deck for the passenger cabin in rough seas...

Yeah, I was onboard one of those times... ;D

This is the case for BC Ferry major routes as well. I have been on sailings that ask passengers to remain on the main passenger decks, without going outside or downstairs, away from windows and holding on to handrails. Seems to be standard practice.