SolDuc
Voyager
West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
Posts: 2,055
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Post by SolDuc on Mar 12, 2013 17:33:27 GMT -8
build 4 extended Olympic Class vessels: extend vessel design by 20 feet to accommodate 11 more vehicles, bumping capacity to 155 cars. These new vessels will replace the Supers at Anacortes and Bremerton, and get auto capacity back closer to the Super Class's original 1967-era 160 vehicle AEQ. Umm. Instead of this design I would rather see a widened design. With an even number of lanes they'd then be able to double lane load/unload all the time. This would in fact bring capacity up a little more, space more the stacks for that they look better, and keep the same dock time as the 2013 olys. I was thinking about it on Monday as well, and I had the chance to write down my ideas. So there you go: - The new Tokitae enters service in January 2014. However, the E-State is kept until the end of the summer to let (1)The Hybrid Hyak project to happen from January to May (Tokitae replaces Hyak) and (2)the re-engeniring of two KdTs, the Chetzy and the Salish. E-State is kept in minimal running order until the end of 2014 if the Hyak is having trouble with the hybrid engines. For the summer of 2014: Tokitae at M/C, Kittitas at F/V/S, Tilikum as Inter Island, E-State kept as backup. - Samish enters service with a SOLAS certificate in January 2015. She replaces the Elwha year-round in the San Juans, and the Elwha is send as back-up, retiring the Hiyu. The Samish is much more efficient than the Elwha to do the fall/spring Sidney runs, and keeps capacity. Elwha's SOLAS certificate is left there and not renewed. Kennewick is re-engenired. - A thrid Olympic class ferry enters service in the spring of 2018. It is send to M/C where it sends the Cathy to F/V/S and retires the Klahowya after 60 years of faithful (ummm) service at Vashon. - A fourth Olympic enters service in the spring of 2019. It it send up in the San Juans where it frees the Hyak for backup which then frees the Sealth for II service which retires the Tilikum. The KdTs would see gallery decks added to them (1 lane on stack side, 2 on other) to reach a 85 car capacity Summmer 2020 vessel assignements: PtD-T: Chetzemoka F-V-S: Issaquah, Cathlamet, Kittitas Sea-Brem: Kaleetan, Walla Walla Sea-BI: Tacoma, Wenatchee Ed-Ki: Puyallup, Spokane M-C: Tokitae, Oly#3 PT-C/K: Salish, Kennewick Ana-SJs: Yakima, Samish, Oly#4 Ana-Sid: Chelan SJ InIs: Sealth Reserve: Hyak, Elwha, Kitsap Retired: E-State, Hiyu, Klahowya, Tilikum Continuing, to replace the Supers: Some kind of widened by a lane (+17) would make it. It will be the Cascade class with AEQ of 161 and 1750 pass. - First cascade class in service by late 2025. Send to SJs to place Yakima in standby, Elwha retired. - Second cascade class in service by early 2027. Send to M/C, moves Tokitae to standby, Hyak retired. - Third cascade class in service by early 2028. Replaces Kaleetan at Bremerton. Kaleetan retired. - Fourth cascade class in service by spring 2029. To M/C, Oly#3 to resserve, Yakima retired. Summmer 2030 vessel assignements: PtD-T: Chetzemoka F-V-S: Issaquah, Cathlamet, Kittitas Sea-Brem: Casc#3, Walla Walla Sea-BI: Tacoma, Wenatchee Ed-Ki: Puyallup, Spokane M-C: Casc#2, Casc#4 PT-C/K: Salish, Kennewick Ana-SJs: Casc#1, Samish, Oly#4 Ana-Sid: Chelan SJ InIs: Sealth Reserve: Tokitae, Oly#3, Kitsap Retired: E-State, Hiyu, Klahowya, Tilikum, Elwha, Hyak, Kaleetan, Yakima To replace the Jumbo class: Jumbo mark IIIs, of course. A JMII stretched by 60 feet. Each library would be streched by 25 ft and the main cabin by 60ft to reach a 4,000 passenger capacity. Car would be 238. - Build first JMIII for service by the fall of 2031. Send it to Sea-BI, which moves the Tacoma to Ed-Ki. The extra Jumbo would be used around the system to make each KdT to go in for a mid-life upgrade. It would include lengthening each boat by 40ft to reach a 100 car capacity. The Spokane should be retired by the summer of 2032. - Build second JMIII by early 2033 for Sea-BI. Wenatchee to Bremerton, Walla Walla retired. Summmer 2033 vessel assignements: PtD-T: Chetzemoka F-V-S: Issaquah, Cathlamet, Kittitas Sea-Brem: Casc#3, Wenatchee Sea-BI: JMIII#1, JMIII#2 Ed-Ki: Puyallup, Tacoma M-C: Casc#2, Casc#4 PT-C/K: Salish, Kennewick Ana-SJs: Casc#1, Samish, Oly#4 Ana-Sid: Chelan SJ InIs: Sealth Reserve: Tokitae, Oly#3, Kitsap Retired: E-State, Hiyu, Klahowya, Tilikum, Elwha, Hyak, Kaleetan, Yakima, Spokane, Walla Walla For the Issaquahs I will use five Cascade class and two single deck Cascade (thus providing an extra vessel) AEQ for SDCC (Volcano class) would be 120 cars. At the end of this the FVS triangle would be broken - 5th Cascade - Early 2039 - Replaces Issaquah - 6th Cascade - Early 2040 - Replaces Kittitas - 7th Cascade - Early 2041 - Replaces Kitsap - 8th Cascade - Early 2042 - Replaces Cathlamet - 9th Cascade - Early 2043 - Replaces Chelan - SOLAS Certified - 1st Volcano - Early 2044 - Replaces Sealth - 2nd Volcano - Early 2045 - Extra vessel to break FVS triangle Summmer 2045 vessel assignements: PtD-T: Volc#2 F-V: Casc#5, Casc#6 F-S: Casc #7 V-S: Chetzemoka Sea-Brem: Casc#3, Wenatchee Sea-BI: JMIII#1, JMIII#2 Ed-Ki: Puyallup, Tacoma M-C: Casc#2, Casc#4 PT-C/K: Salish, Kennewick Ana-SJs: Casc#1, Casc#9, Oly#4 Ana-Sid: Samish SJ InIs: Volc#1 Reserve: Tokitae, Oly#3, Casc#7 Retired: E-State, Hiyu, Klahowya, Tilikum, Elwha, Hyak, Kaleetan, Yakima, Spokane, Walla Walla, Issaquah, Kittitas, Kitsap, Cathlamet, Chelan, Sealth
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Mar 12, 2013 17:47:15 GMT -8
Why would they build two new 214 car vessels? I think they need to build three new 230 car vessels put two of them on the Seattle to Bainbridge Island and one on Edmonds to Kingston with the Puyallup. My thinking behind an incremental increase in size over the current JMII's is that we don't need vessels dramatically larger than the JMII's. What we do need are vessels that have greater passenger capacity for the commuter-heavy Bainbridge route. The JMIII design could accomplish this by extending the JMII platform an additional 20 feet, and building out more enclosed passenger cabin areas on the sun deck. The JMII's vehicle capacity of 202 cars is already pretty good. A 20ft longer ferry would bump that number to 214. I guess if you lengthened the vessel by 40ft instead of 20, that would bump capacity to 226 cars, which is much closer to the 230 number you came up with, but that would be a 500ft vessel at that point. I'm not sure we will ever need something that big. This is all pretty far out in the future at this point, and we're a long way from even thinking about what we will replace Spokane and Walla Walla with. Who knows what the state of the ferry system will be then, or even what the demand will be, or where the demand will be. Right now, Bainbridge Island has the highest passenger volume out of any run in the system. By 2032, that may or may not be the case. This little scenario I came up with is based on traffic patterns staying consistent, and even growing respectively, not necessarily shifting. Could they put a main, second and upper car deck on the boats?
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Post by Kahloke on Mar 12, 2013 18:01:09 GMT -8
My thinking behind an incremental increase in size over the current JMII's is that we don't need vessels dramatically larger than the JMII's. What we do need are vessels that have greater passenger capacity for the commuter-heavy Bainbridge route. The JMIII design could accomplish this by extending the JMII platform an additional 20 feet, and building out more enclosed passenger cabin areas on the sun deck. The JMII's vehicle capacity of 202 cars is already pretty good. A 20ft longer ferry would bump that number to 214. I guess if you lengthened the vessel by 40ft instead of 20, that would bump capacity to 226 cars, which is much closer to the 230 number you came up with, but that would be a 500ft vessel at that point. I'm not sure we will ever need something that big. This is all pretty far out in the future at this point, and we're a long way from even thinking about what we will replace Spokane and Walla Walla with. Who knows what the state of the ferry system will be then, or even what the demand will be, or where the demand will be. Right now, Bainbridge Island has the highest passenger volume out of any run in the system. By 2032, that may or may not be the case. This little scenario I came up with is based on traffic patterns staying consistent, and even growing respectively, not necessarily shifting. Could they put a main, second and upper car deck on the boats? Not without building a tiered dock system like BC Ferries has with the dockside ramps to the upper car deck level. WSF simply doesn't need that kind of capacity, especially given that the heaviest used routes in the system only have crossing times of 20 to 55 minutes (20 minutes at Mukilteo-Clinton, 25 minutes at Edmonds-Kingston, 35 minutes at Seattle-Bainbridge, and 55 minutes at Seattle-Bremerton). Frequency is of better benefit here.
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Post by Mike C on Mar 12, 2013 18:03:45 GMT -8
Could they put a main, second and upper car deck on the boats? Putting in an upper car deck is a huge undertaking, mainly from the perspective of converting terminals. Constructing vessels with two decks requires a nominal cost increase, because the ship is already being constructed anyway. Most of the terminals in the Washington State Ferry system are located in villages and small urban areas, which greatly restricts the space for adding infrastructure. Most major BC Ferry terminals have had land nearby available for acquisition, with a few exceptions. Adding the necessary ramps and roadway are also a costly endeavour. If ridership ever gets to that point, then I am sure a cost/benefit analysis will be done. I don't think ridership has reached that point yet.
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Post by chokai on Mar 12, 2013 18:25:19 GMT -8
- build 4 extended Olympic Class vessels: extend vessel design by 20 feet to accommodate 11 more vehicles, bumping capacity to 155 cars. These new vessels will replace the Supers at Anacortes and Bremerton, and get auto capacity back closer to the Super Class's original 1967-era 160 vehicle AEQ. I really do think this is something we will see. WSF already freely admits that the "flight 2" Olympics maybe significantly different from the current "flight 1" boats. The major example used are alterations to the propulsion system due to environmental regulations and or additional ADA requirements beyond those currently in place. However they also note that other changes may be driven by operational needs (more cars, less cars, more passengers, less passengers whatever). By the mid to late 2020's large parts of SoundTransit 2 will be getting into place and they maybe altering travel patterns a lot. The South Sounder line has definitely done that. Samish enters service with a SOLAS certificate in January 2015. She replaces the Elwha year-round in the San Juans, and the Elwha is send as back-up, retiring the Hiyu. The Samish is much more efficient than the Elwha to do the fall/spring Sidney runs, and keeps capacity. Elwha's SOLAS certificate is left there and not renewed. Kennewick is re-engenired. What is your reasoning for SOLAS certifying Samish at this time after design is done which would require numerous very costly change orders? I just don't see why we should spend extra money doing that when both Elwha and Chelan have the certification and Elwha will remain in service for at least another 10 years to handle the peak with Chelan is backup. Efficiency gains are nice but you are talking about millions upon millions of dollars in CRs here. I just feel it makes much better sense to SOLAS one of the replacement boats in the 2020 timeframe.
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SolDuc
Voyager
West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
Posts: 2,055
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Post by SolDuc on Mar 12, 2013 18:45:17 GMT -8
Samish enters service with a SOLAS certificate in January 2015. She replaces the Elwha year-round in the San Juans, and the Elwha is send as back-up, retiring the Hiyu. The Samish is much more efficient than the Elwha to do the fall/spring Sidney runs, and keeps capacity. Elwha's SOLAS certificate is left there and not renewed. Kennewick is re-engenired. What is your reasoning for SOLAS certifying Samish at this time after design is done which would require numerous very costly change orders? I just don't see why we should spend extra money doing that when both Elwha and Chelan have the certification and Elwha will remain in service for at least another 10 years to handle the peak with Chelan is backup. Efficiency gains are nice but you are talking about millions upon millions of dollars in CRs here. I just feel it makes much better sense to SOLAS one of the replacement boats in the 2020 timeframe. Yes it would require extensive changes but my choice relies on three points: 1. An Olympic will have to be SOLAS upgraded anyways 2. Certifying the vessel to SOLAS regulations will be less expensive if done when-built than later 3. An Olympic is safer and less expensive to maintain/operate than a super, especially the Elwha. It has more freeboard which is useful in rough seas, has more easily accessible MES and such. The boat has the same capacity as the Elwha, so WSF will still have a big boat for Sidney service. Running the Elwha at Sidney during the Fall/Spring is extremely expensive and uses more money than it makes. With way more fuel efficient engines, the money that WSF dumps every year to have the Elwha as the Sidney boat could then be used for other projects. And as I stated before, widening an Olympic would be the thing to do before talking about lengthening as the widened Olympic spends as much time in dock as a regular Olympic, yet it carries 17 more cars. Lengthening by 20ft would only make 11 more cars, with a longer dock time.
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SolDuc
Voyager
West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
Posts: 2,055
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Post by SolDuc on Mar 12, 2013 18:52:15 GMT -8
Could they put a main, second and upper car deck on the boats? Putting in an upper car deck is a huge undertaking, mainly from the perspective of converting terminals. Constructing vessels with two decks requires a nominal cost increase, because the ship is already being constructed anyway. Most of the terminals in the Washington State Ferry system are located in villages and small urban areas, which greatly restricts the space for adding infrastructure. Most major BC Ferry terminals have had land nearby available for acquisition, with a few exceptions. Adding the necessary ramps and roadway are also a costly endeavour. If ridership ever gets to that point, then I am sure a cost/benefit analysis will be done. I don't think ridership has reached that point yet. I agree with this, and also with what Kahloke posted earlier. No routes at WSF require this, and it would not only require new ramps for cars but bigger holding areas, more route capacity and to demolish and rebuild every overhead loading plank. Plus the terminals are really compact, versus BCFs' ones which even have parking. If I had to cite terminals that could accommodate 2car decks/ramps the list would be short: - Anacortes - Clinton - Kingston (?) - Coupeville (?) That's it. Not any route has both terminals able to undergo the conversion, except for maybe PT-C which does not need the extra capacity anyways.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Mar 12, 2013 20:55:13 GMT -8
Should be noted there were plans to renovate and overhaul Colman Dock at one time, and one of the plans included a three-story parking garage and two-story holding lane area. Ferry docking and loading was to be done diagonally to the terminal, instead of nose-in. I think they had that sort of change in mind, at least.
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Post by PeninsulaExplorer on Jul 6, 2013 19:55:18 GMT -8
I guess the described boat is a mystery. I must say the Safe Passage does not look as bad a I thought it, which of course is not a reflection of how well it may have worked. So, we know the KdT design does not work well, I think they ought to be sold off. How about we try to "design" a concept of one here using our knowledge and intentions. Here is my criteria, feel free to add to it: Length 270-280 feet Width 72-76 feet 7 lanes Center divider/stairway, 3 lanes on one side, 4 on other 80 + Cars 500 Passengers 11 foot Draft Rudder and Propeller protected with Skeg Reduction Gear Drive 4 stroke Diesel (x2) Power Controllable Pitch Propellers Passenger Space set inward from rail for outside narrow passenger walkways I know this feels a lot like a Steel Electric, however, only in approximate size, this boat would be a simpler and less expensive Vessel to build and operate. I'd draw one up, if I knew how, let's see what you can do. I still vote for the State also buy an extended SteilacoomII for a replacement for the Hiyu, a spare, and for use at PD/T and summer at Keystone. Ferrynut has a great drawing he did for us here on Lummi Island when we thought we might have to run to Bellingham. It's a 276 foot 72 car version with a single pilot house, looks absolutely wonderful. because it has a smaller Passenger Space, the stairs are farther inward, which would facilitate better Inter-Island Spin. Maybe he will post the drawing. Jim Well there still has to be more room for the passengers. Heck, the KdTs have room for 750 passengers, if you are to increase the amount of cars, you should increase the amount of passengers, basically, the bigger the boat the bigger the passenger cabin. Also it's the Pacific Northwest, so the walk on passengers need some area to be if it rains(which about 60% of the time it does) so they don't get wet, also Port Townsend-Coupeville (Keystone) route gets some waves that come over the bow, and nobody whats to be outside during that!
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Post by captmeek on Aug 10, 2013 17:57:21 GMT -8
Could this design be an option to the Jumbo Mark II class ? 250 cars, 2500 Pax
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Post by compdude787 on Aug 12, 2013 9:45:43 GMT -8
captmeek, I'm sorry but no. It just doesn't look like a 'Washington' ferry. It's too ugly, doesn't have pickleforks, and also, all of the WSFs except the tiny Hiyu have two pilothouses. I think it would be best to keep it that way. Sorry for completely shooting down your idea, but it just doesn't work as a Washington State ferry. I prefer our current designs, and that just doesn't look right.
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Post by Steve Rosenow on Aug 12, 2013 10:48:12 GMT -8
Could this design be an option to the Jumbo Mark II class ? 250 cars, 2500 Pax Not with as deep a draft that vessel has. WSF vessels have no more than 20 feet of draft, and typically have no more than 25 feet from keel to main deck. The seabed at just about every terminal in the state which would run a ferry that deep would almost certainly have to be rebuilt and dredged out to accommodate that deep a draft. It also lacks the outdoor promenade deck space that makes Washington State Ferries the state's top tourist attraction.
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Aug 12, 2013 11:02:00 GMT -8
Here is my take on what WSF Should do: Tokitae enters service Early 2014. It should go to Clinton, displacing the Kittitas, which would then go to Vashon. Klahowya is bumped to Talequah, Chetzy to Standby, Hiyu is retired. Samish should enter service with a SOLAS certificate early 2016. Elwha is moved to Bremerton.
Probable Summer Vessel Assignments: 2016 PDT: Klahowya FVS: Issaquah, Kittitas, Kitsap Bremerton: Walla Walla, Elwha Bainbridge: Tacoma, Puyallup Kingston: Wenatchee, Spokane Clinton: Tokitae, Cathlamet Coopville: Sailish, Kennewick San Juans: Yakima, Kalletain, Hyak International: Samish Interisland: Tillikum
Standby: Chetzemoka, Chelan, Sealth Retired/Sold: Hiyu, Evergreen State
Next, WSF should build a class of four vessels with capacity for ~75 vehicles. These vessels would be based mostly on the design of the Issys, with a little inspiration from the Jumbos. These vessels would replace both the KDTs and the Evergreens. Probable Summer Vessel Assignments: 2024 PDT: N75-1 FVS: Issaquah, Kittitas, Kitsap Bremerton: Walla Walla, Elwha Bainbridge: Tacoma, Puyallup Kingston: Wenatchee, Spokane Clinton: Tokitae, Cathlamet Coopville: N75-3, N75-4 San Juans: Yakima, Kalletain, Hyak International: Samish Interisland: N75-2
Standby: Chelan, Sealth Retired/Sold: Hiyu, Evergreen State, Klahowya, Tillikum, Chetzemoka, Sailish, Kennewick
Keep the Supers for a while. They are in good condition still. Don't replace something that is old but works.
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Post by Kahloke on Aug 12, 2013 11:32:59 GMT -8
Could this design be an option to the Jumbo Mark II class ? 250 cars, 2500 Pax Not with as deep a draft that vessel has. WSF vessels have no more than 20 feet of draft, and typically have no more than 25 feet from keel to main deck. The seabed at just about every terminal in the state which would run a ferry that deep would almost certainly have to be rebuilt and dredged out to accommodate that deep a draft. It also lacks the outdoor promenade deck space that makes Washington State Ferries the state's top tourist attraction. That looks like one of the Norwegian ferry designs, similar to Fjord 1's Boknafjord. Nice 3D model, but I agree with the other responses about it not being a good template for WSF boats. For one thing, it doesn't look like it would have the passenger capacity needed for the Seattle-Bainbridge route, where the current JMII vessels serve. The design, itself, seems to be pretty efficient, and I know BC Ferries is looking at something similar to this in replacing their intermediate ferries (Queens of Burnaby and Nanaimo).
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Aug 12, 2013 15:58:39 GMT -8
Not with as deep a draft that vessel has. WSF vessels have no more than 20 feet of draft, and typically have no more than 25 feet from keel to main deck. The seabed at just about every terminal in the state which would run a ferry that deep would almost certainly have to be rebuilt and dredged out to accommodate that deep a draft. It also lacks the outdoor promenade deck space that makes Washington State Ferries the state's top tourist attraction. That looks like one of the Norwegian ferry designs, similar to Fjord 1's Boknafjord. Nice 3D model, but I agree with the other responses about it not being a good template for WSF boats. For one thing, it doesn't look like it would have the passenger capacity needed for the Seattle-Bainbridge route, where the current JMII vessels serve. The design, itself, seems to be pretty efficient, and I know BC Ferries is looking at something similar to this in replacing their intermediate ferries (Queens of Burnaby and Nanaimo). From what it looks like, the Norweigans have a different design goal and passenger cabins nor aesthetics. I think it is mostly around the goal of moving vehicles and their occupants. For the Seattle-Bainbridge Island route, passenger space is a must, especially in the summer during commute hours and due to shear volume.
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Post by Kahloke on Aug 12, 2013 19:44:55 GMT -8
Here is my take on what WSF Should do: Tokitae enters service Early 2014. It should go to Clinton, displacing the Kittitas, which would then go to Vashon. Klahowya is bumped to Talequah, Chetzy to Standby, Hiyu is retired. Samish should enter service with a SOLAS certificate early 2016. Elwha is moved to Bremerton.Future vessel assignments have been discussed and debated ad nauseum here on this board, and in this thread. Many, including myself, have offered up our "opinions" on where the new boats should end up, and how the fleet should be re-distributed thereafter. But, I guess I'll offer up my thoughts one more time, realizing that my opinions have very little bearing on any real outcome or decision-making by the powers that be. So, with that disclaimer out of the way, here we go: Here is my take on what WSF Should do: Tokitae enters service Early 2014. It should go to Clinton, displacing the Kittitas, which would then go to Vashon. Klahowya is bumped to Talequah, Chetzy to Standby, Hiyu is retired. 1. It does seem likely that Tokitae will end up on the Mukilteo-Clinton route, which would free up Cathlamet or Kittitas to serve at F-V-S. 2. It is unlikely that Klahowya would bump Chetzy at Point Defiance. Klahowya is getting old and showing her age. Given Klahowya's issues of late, It is more likely that she will become the reserve boat once the first wave of new 144's are all in service. Chetzemoka, her obvious faults aside, is too new of a vessel to write off, and I don't see WSF moving her into a standby role at this early stage of her career. I Expect to see Chetzy at Point Defiance for the next several years at the very least. 3. Not sure what WSF is going to do with Hiyu when the 1st wave of 144's are up and running. It is entirely conceivable that she could be retired since she really serves no useful purpose anymore. Maybe they will keep her for training purposes - who knows? Probable Summer Vessel Assignments: 2016
PDT: Klahowya Doubt it - Chetzemoka is still very young, and Klahowya has problems FVS: Issaquah, Kittitas, Kitsap Yes, getting 3 Issaquah-124's on the F-V-S triangle makes a ton of sense Bremerton: Walla Walla, Elwha Yes, aa Super and a Jumbo are a good combination at Bremerton. Which Super goes there is entirely debatable. Perhaps this would be a good place for Hyak after the hybridization retrofit? Bainbridge: Tacoma, Puyallup Kingston: Wenatchee, Spokane status quo. Why Puyallup at Bainbridge instead of Wenatchee? I guess it doesn't really matter. They are both JMII vessels. Clinton: Tokitae, Cathlamet Yep, already discussed Coopville: Sailish, Kennewick Other than the misspelling of Coupeville and Salish, also status quo San Juans: Yakima, Kalletain, Hyak I would put Samish here instead of on the International route. the San Juans need to maintain the capacity, and I kind of doubt the first two 144's will be SOLAS compliant. Chelan does well on the Sidney route, and I don't see a need for a bump in capacity there for awhile, particularly on the summer schedule when that vessel is going back and forth to Sidney all day, and not doing domestic runs. So, that would have Kaleetan (or Hyak), Samish, and Yakima doing the Anacortes - San Juan Islands rotation. I would keep Chelan here, at least for the next several years Why not Sealth? Tillikum is going to most likely be retired sooner instead of later, so Sealth might as well become the new inter-island vessel once Evergreen gets retired. Standby: Chetzemoka, Chelan, Sealth Retired/Sold: Hiyu, Evergreen State After Hyak gets hybridized, I would put Elwha on standby, along with Klahowya, and Tillikum. Next, WSF should build a class of four vessels with capacity for ~75 vehicles. These vessels would be based mostly on the design of the Issys, with a little inspiration from the Jumbos. These vessels would replace both the KDTs and the Evergreens. For the "Flight 2" wave of new-builds when the Supers get retired in the latter half of the 2020's, I would much prefer to see a larger version of the Olympic-Class vessels to replace the Supers. If you were to lengthen the Olympic Class vessel by 20 feet and add a lane width to the beam (effectively putting 4 lanes down the tunnel instead of 3), that would bump the capacity to around 164 cars, which would be a nice size to have. Build 4 of the enlarged Olympic Class boats - assign 2 to Anacortes and 2 to Bremerton. That would work much better than smallish 75-car boats, IMO. Keep the Supers for a while. They are in good condition still. Don't replace something that is old but works. The Supers are getting old, too. I would like to see 4 newbuilds come out of the "Flight 2" construction to enable the retiring of all the Supers, and make the new boats larger as I described above.
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Post by maximase86 on Aug 13, 2013 6:45:32 GMT -8
I would add that replacement of the KDT is very unlikely. They are already surrounded in political controversy, and early replacement will stir that pot even more. I don't think we would just write off the cost either. I think what you will see is those boats settling into PT/C and PD/T. You are likely to see WSF address issues with the boats like we have already seen with a solution for the list, no matter how stupid it may be.
S
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Post by compdude787 on Aug 13, 2013 11:39:52 GMT -8
I would add that replacement of the KDT is very unlikely. They are already surrounded in political controversy, and early replacement will stir that pot even more. I don't think we would just write off the cost either. I think what you will see is those boats settling into PT/C and PD/T. You are likely to see WSF address issues with the boats like we have already seen with a solution for the list, no matter how stupid it may be. S And, in a few years, I can easily see them putting in the correct engines rather than the overpowered gas hogs that they currently have. At least I hope so!
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Post by maximase86 on Aug 13, 2013 21:01:06 GMT -8
And, in a few years, I can easily see them putting in the correct engines rather than the overpowered gas hogs that they currently have. At least I hope so! I hope so too, but also knowing how our legislature works, I lose a little hope each day. S
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Aug 20, 2013 13:59:37 GMT -8
All in 2016 to 2028: FVS: Issaquah, Kittitas,* Kitsap * or Cathlament because WSF has not said what one would leave the Clinton route. Bremerton: Walla Walla, Elwha Why would WSF put Elwha on the Bremerton route? It will most likely be Hyak after she returns from hybridization. Clinton: Tokitae, Cathlamet* * or Kittitas because WSF has not said what one would leave the Clinton route. San Juans: Yakima, Kalletain, Hyak I would put the Samish since the Hyak is already at Bremerton. The Chelan would be good since she has good fuel usage. The Sealth would be a good interisland ferry since oversized vehicles can go anywhere on the car deck.
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camelot
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by camelot on Aug 20, 2013 15:35:36 GMT -8
I am new so please forgive any problems, but the M/V Elwha is the only Super that cannot be assigned to the Bremerton/Seattle run exept in a pinch due to overhauls over the years. The M/V Kaleetan and M/V Yakima or M/V Samish are better choices for the winter months and the M/V Walla Walla with the M/V Kaleetan or M/V Samish in the summer should be the proper assignments.
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SolDuc
Voyager
West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
Posts: 2,055
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Post by SolDuc on Aug 20, 2013 16:25:38 GMT -8
I am new so please forgive any problems, but the M/V Elwha is the only Super that cannot be assigned to the Bremerton/Seattle run exept in a pinch due to overhauls over the years. The M/V Kaleetan and M/V Yakima or M/V Samish are better choices for the winter months and the M/V Walla Walla with the M/V Kaleetan or M/V Samish in the summer should be the proper assignments. The Elwha sure can be assigned to Seattle-Bremerton. It just has to slow down in the narrowest part of Rich Passage. The Walla Walla should be at Bremerton year-round, except when she is at Edmonds/Kingston subbing for her sister or in the yard. A Super or Olympic (really doesn't matter which one) should replace her when she's not there. Except in really bad situations like what we have seen last winter, no Issaquahs should be at Bremerton. The Sealth would be a good interisland ferry since oversized vehicles can go anywhere on the car deck. Because they can't on the Tilikum?
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Post by chokai on Aug 20, 2013 16:44:12 GMT -8
The Elwha sure can be assigned to Seattle-Bremerton. It just has to slow down in the narrowest part of Rich Passage. Actually I think camelot is technically correct. It is my understanding that it is difficult for the Elwha to serve at Bremerton except in an emergency like Salish did last year. What I had heard (though cannot recall from where) is that per the Coast Guard regs her international SOLAS capacity of 1000 something passengers is her passenger capacity period. It cannot be bumped easily up to the regular super capacity "on the fly" when she operates on a domestic only run not requiring SOLAS regs without recertifying the boat, adding an unecessary paperwork/inspection mess. This makes her a worse boat to serve on the route than Kitsap in terms of capacity, although people would be more comfortable for sure. That is why she spends almost all her time in the San Juans. She never hits that limit or close to it.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 20, 2013 16:45:08 GMT -8
I am new so please forgive any problems, but the M/V Elwha is the only Super that cannot be assigned to the Bremerton/Seattle run exept in a pinch due to overhauls over the years. The M/V Kaleetan and M/V Yakima or M/V Samish are better choices for the winter months and the M/V Walla Walla with the M/V Kaleetan or M/V Samish in the summer should be the proper assignments. The Elwha sure can be assigned to Seattle-Bremerton. It just has to slow down in the narrowest part of Rich Passage. It has been pointed out here before, though it was a few years ago, that the Elwha's rated passenger capacity is MUCH less than her three sisters. Exact reasons were not provided, but it is suspected that given she ALWAYS operates the SJI route, and the walk on counts are much lower there than say, Bremerton, it was more cost effective to remove some of the lifesaving equipment and downgrade her license rather than maintain equipment for a passenger capacity that would never be attained. Presumably the equipment could be reinstalled if she was needed for service at Bremerton long term, but I just don't see that happening.
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camelot
Oiler (New Member)
Posts: 2
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Post by camelot on Aug 20, 2013 16:59:08 GMT -8
I in a pinch she could be used and in the past has but typically not a good idea with current modifications.
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