FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Nov 3, 2011 7:54:35 GMT -8
Actually, the new WSF 144-car ferries are patterned off the big "Coastal Class" BC ferries in a slight way. Let's take a look at the Sun Deck, for example. The "Coastals" have an open-ended observatory at each end on the Sun Deck. The new WSF 144's will have the same. I guess we should call our new ferries the "Washington Coastals". All we need to do now is find the right wording from "First Nations" language.
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Post by zargoman on Nov 3, 2011 9:32:23 GMT -8
I think that there are a lot of Native tribes and communities along the coast that the boat(s) could be named after. I think that "coastal class" would be perfect for the new class...At least it would be something that's easy to pronounce, as opposed to "kwa-di tabil". How about "Waterways class", or "Navigator Class" or... I'd like to see a class of boats that has vessel names that have something in common. Such as having names from the coastal region, or names of waterways or names of famous explorers that helped define the region.
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Post by lmtengs on Nov 3, 2011 15:01:14 GMT -8
I suggested the same thing, FerryNut, not that long ago, but somebody contradicted that fact. I forget who it was though and why. Could said person speak up?
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Post by Kahloke on Nov 3, 2011 15:18:46 GMT -8
I suggested the same thing, FerryNut, not that long ago, but somebody contradicted that fact. I forget who it was though and why. Could said person speak up? It was Barnacle, and it was in the How about the New 144s thread. This is the excerpt from that conversation: The really big BCF-ish thing that I see is the design of the two solariums. They look quite similar to those of our Super-Duper-C's, except the fact that the bridge is above them instead of below. Oh, you mean like the Jumbo Mark IIs? Which were designed off our Jumbo-class, as were your C-Class... in short, those solaria appeared on a WSF boat long before the Super-Duper-Cs, Super-Cs, or C-class.Yes, it can be argued the solariums on the new 144 boats are similar to the Coastals, but the overall design of this vessel is an evolution and "tweaking" of previous WSF templates, going all the way back to the original Jumbos. I see more similarities with the Jumbo Mark II's than any other vessel out there. The bridges with the flying wings and tapered pickle forks really pay homage to the JMII design.
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Post by chokai on Nov 3, 2011 15:26:42 GMT -8
Zargoman, waterway naming is something I'm intrigued by too. Specifically I'm a fan of the "River" class, although I'd suggest using a regional native word for river or something, similar to Kwa-de-Tabil. There are a substantial # of rivers in Washington that are either named after tribes or are other native words in origin that have had not recently had a state ferry named. Snoqualmie, Chehalis, Skokomish, Quilcene etc... Not to mention the recently departed Snohomish & Quinault. Some like Duwamish are debatable due to other notable non ferry vessels still around, but there are plenty available.
To comment on design origin, I too see more "super" in these boats than the original issaquah design. Remove the top deck house and they are very super looking. They definitely share little in common with the actual Issaquah's.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 3, 2011 15:31:44 GMT -8
I suggested the same thing, FerryNut, not that long ago, but somebody contradicted that fact. I forget who it was though and why. Could said person speak up? One more point to remember when comparing designs is to differentiate between a coincidental similarity and a purposeful-copying of design. There are lots of coincidental similarities between classes/fleets of ships, but that doesn't always indicate where the architect's inspiration came from. And as has been pointed out a few times, some people might look at the WSF Jumbo class and think that they are a copy of the BCFerries C-Class. But if you know the sequence of both ships re their years of design & construction, you'll then know which the original is and which the copy is. ps: - it looks like the designers of the Rhododendron copied some of that ship's features from the BCFerries Island Sky. ;D
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Post by rusty on Nov 4, 2011 15:05:05 GMT -8
I believe that the superstructure is to be made out of aluminum, for the benefit of a certain Whidbey Is shipyard. Is that true?
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Post by EGfleet on Nov 4, 2011 15:11:34 GMT -8
I believe that the superstructure is to be made out of aluminum, for the benefit of a certain Whidbey Is shipyard. Is that true? That was originally part of the bill when it was written into law. That provision was struck in the last legislative session.
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 13, 2011 8:36:40 GMT -8
Martinac out of ferry job?A Tacoma shipyard could be dropped today from the group of companies splitting $115 million to build Washington a ferry. JORDAN SCHRADER; Staff writer Published: 12/13/11 6:43 am | Updated: 12/13/11 7:00 am 3 Comments A Tacoma shipyard could be dropped today from the group of companies splitting $115 million to build Washington a ferry. State lawmakers from Pierce County want J.M. Martinac Shipbuilding Corp. to remain a subcontractor on the project and have asked Gov. Chris Gregoire to intervene on the company’s behalf. Martinac had expected to outfit the 144-car vessel with electrical, heating and cooling systems and other finishing touches. But the lead contractor, Portland-based Vigor Industrial, says it can do the work cheaper at its Everett subsidiary. Vigor gave Martinac until today to lower its $25 million price or be dropped, Vigor spokesman Steve Hirsh said. Gregoire said she expects Martinac to make a counter-offer. “I don’t consider them out at all,” she said. Gregoire in 2007 helped negotiate an agreement between companies that made Seattle-based Todd Pacific Shipyards the main contractor building Washington ferries. Previously, Martinac had fought a state decision favoring Todd and won, prompting the Legislature to step in and call for a unified bid. Vigor bought Todd Pacific this year and negotiated a $115 million price for the first ferry – part of an overall budget of $147 million. Lawmakers funded the first ferry last winter with the aim of carrying commuters by 2014. Among the companies sharing the work, Hirsh said, are Whidbey Island’s Nichols Bros. Boat Builders – which is building the upper part of the vessel – and Tacoma’s Jesse Engineering, which is building the fore and aft entrance points for cars. Vigor said its subsidiary Everett Shipyard could do the final outfitting for less than $15 million, but says Martinac wouldn’t budge. “We have been talking to them over weeks and weeks and weeks saying, ‘Look, we think this is a $15 million project, not a $25 million project,’” Hirsh said Monday. “We don’t have enough leeway in this budget that we’re going to be able to eat $10 million in unnecessary expense.” Martinac didn’t return phone calls Monday about the possibility of a counter-offer. But vice president Jonathan Platt said Friday that the company doesn’t think it’s being treated fairly and has asked state lawmakers to step in. Platt said the ferry job would create 100 jobs in Pierce County over 212 days in 2013. “It’s a great job,” Platt said, “and it’s a lot of hours, and it’s important to our people.” Led by Rep. Larry Seaquist of Gig Harbor and joined by County Executive Pat McCarthy, lawmakers wrote a letter to Gregoire on Friday asking for her “immediate, personal intervention.” “From the beginning, even Todd Pacific before they were sold seemed to be trying to push Martinac out of the deal,” said Seaquist, a Democrat who represents many communities that depend on ferries. “We hate to see this conniving end up pulling those jobs out and give them to someplace else, or even to out-of-state workers.” Lawmakers wrote that some workers would be “imported” from Portland. Hirsh said he couldn’t promise that all workers would be from Washington, only that all of it would take place in Washington and use union labor. But he said that when Everett Shipyard did similar work building smaller 64-car ferries for the state, only a tiny fraction of the work was done by out-of-state workers – “something like less than a quarter of a percent.” The Democratic governor said it’s not her place to intrude on negotiations between a contractor and its subcontractors. “I wrote a note back to my policy folks (saying), ‘Intercede and do what?’” Gregoire said Monday. “We’re waiting for their counter (offer).” Read more: www.thenewstribune.com/2011/12/13/1943146/martinac-out-of-ferry-job.html#ixzz1gQvcKTPm
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 15, 2011 6:45:45 GMT -8
Martinac left off ferry-building team
By Ed Friedrich Posted December 14, 2011 at 5:36 p.m.
SEATTLE — Vigor Industries announced the team of subcontractors Wednesday that will help it construct a 144-car ferry for the state, and Martinac Shipbuilding isn't on it.
Vigor — formerly Todd Shipyards — asked Martinac to reduce costs on its share of the $115 million project from what Vigor said was $25 million to "a market price" of $14.8 million. Martinac came back with a counteroffer Monday afternoon, agreeing to work for Vigor's specified composite rate of $74.25 an hour and for a composite overtime rate of $95, less than the $111.37 an hour Vigor called for. Vigor rejected it Wednesday, saying it wanted a firm, fixed price and that offering to complete the work on a time-and-material basis was unacceptable.
"It was open-ended," said Vigor spokesman Steve Hirsh. "It would be as if you wanted to buy a house and said I have $200,000 to spend. The builder comes to you and says it's a $300,000 price tag and you say I don't have that much money to spend. He comes back and says I'll bill you at $40 an hour and let's hope the house is finished by the time we run out of money. It was an open-ended proposal with no limit, but we are dealing with a fixed price we have pledged to the state for delivering the ferry."
Martinac officials couldn't be reached Wednesday. Rep. Larry Seaquist, who led a group of Piece County lawmakers trying to keep the work with Martinac, said he was disappointed but moving forward.
"My top priority is seeing this new 144-car ferry built on time and without cost overruns," he said.
Seaquist, D-Gig Harbor, wrote to Pierce County representatives that Vigor, "without objection from WSF or WSDOT, unilaterally ejected Martinac from the consortium originally chartered by the Legislature and negotiated by the governor."
He said discussions with House Transportation Chairwoman Judy Clibborn, D-Mercer Island, and the governor's office suggest they turn their focus to contract and construction oversight and future construction.
Martinac's work, which included the flooring, insulation, galleys, restrooms and heating and air conditioning, will be completed by Vigor's shipyard in Everett.
US Fab, the new-build subsidiary of Vigor Industrial, will craft the ferry's hull in Seattle. Nichols Brothers Boat Builders of Whidbey Island will build the structure from the car deck up. The drive-on and drive-off ends will be constructed by Jesse Engineering in Tacoma. The sections will be joined together in Seattle. There will be a couple dozen smaller contractors. It's the same multi-city approach used to build three 64-car ferries for the state the past couple years.In 2005, a judge ruled that the state had unlawfully eliminated Martinac from bidding on 144-car ferries, resulting in the plan to share the work among Vigor, Martinac and Nichols Brothers.Vigor says the work will support more than 500 direct jobs around Puget Sound, including many new hires, and about 2,000 indirect jobs.
The total cost of the ferry is $147 million, which includes design, WSF-furnished equipment, construction management, final outfitting and contingencies. Construction will begin in February, with delivery expected in mid-2014.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Dec 15, 2011 9:01:31 GMT -8
If this all stands as called, us ferry fans would be winners in a way. When the CHETZEMOKA, SALISH, and KENNEWICK were finished in Everett, we had a live view of them via Everett Herald's webcam. That cam updates instantly. Hopefully, this cam will still be with us when the new 144 is finished there. I could be corrected if I'm mistaking, I think there's no webcam that gives us a view of the Tacoma yard that would have done the finishing. The Everett cam is at: webcam.heraldnet.com/axis-cgi/jpg/image.cgi?resolution=640x480Click "F5" to refresh.
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Post by Barnacle on Dec 15, 2011 15:47:21 GMT -8
Martinac comes off very badly in all of this, IMHO. Every time a new ferry is proposed, they get stinky if they aren't part of the party.
I do recall their speculative design some years back, as their "Safe Boat" project. The idea was that the boats would be owned by someone other than the State, who could lease the boats. Their design had numerous flaws (not the least of which being that the houses were sloped back too far to accomodate the use of the overhead passenger ramps), but Martinac seemed quite put out when told this. They threatened to sue until it was pointed out that the design didn't meet specifications.
Telling a client "No, what you really need is this and that is your only choice" is the business model that got GM and Chrysler into deep trouble...
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Post by suburbanite on Dec 17, 2011 20:27:16 GMT -8
I'm not sure how it looks for Martinac. I sure see it as a major case of the pot calling the kettle black by Todd/Vigor when they complain about Martinac coming in with a bid 67% percent above "market rate." Todd's bid for the STII design was about 100% higher than the price Pierce County paid for the original. When that was rejected by WSF as too much for too little boat they ended up paying more than 100% above the price of the Island Home. Then WFS went in for three of the toy boats that again cost to much and do to little. Now Vigor is charging $115,000,000 for what would be a $70,000,000 boat if it were bid competitively and they complain when one of their single bid "partners" asks for an above market rate price for their slice of the the above market rate pie!!! If WFS is ever going to have a prayer of replacing the Evergreens, Supers and Jumbos to provide reliable and cost effective service in the 21st century they are going to have to end this "built in Washington" single bid fiasco. The Washington taxpayers and ferry riders can't afford this double priced boat form of corporate welfare.
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Post by EGfleet on Dec 18, 2011 6:36:18 GMT -8
I'm not sure how it looks for Martinac. I sure see it as a major case of the pot calling the kettle black by Todd/Vigor when they complain about Martinac coming in with a bid 67% percent above "market rate." Todd's bid for the STII design was about 100% higher than the price Pierce County paid for the original. When that was rejected by WSF as too much for too little boat they ended up paying more than 100% above the price of the Island Home. Then WFS went in for three of the toy boats that again cost to much and do to little. Now Vigor is charging $115,000,000 for what would be a $70,000,000 boat if it were bid competitively and they complain when one of their single bid "partners" asks for an above market rate price for their slice of the the above market rate pie!!! If WFS is ever going to have a prayer of replacing the Evergreens, Supers and Jumbos to provide reliable and cost effective service in the 21st century they are going to have to end this "built in Washington" single bid fiasco. The Washington taxpayers and ferry riders can't afford this double priced boat form of corporate welfare. I agree. But as long as Mary Margaret Haugen is head of the transportation committee, it won't happen. She's 70 or 71 so we can only hope she'll retire soon and not run for reelection. From what I have gathered, if she does run in 2013 she's going to have a hard time of it.
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Dec 20, 2011 18:19:04 GMT -8
I'm not sure how it looks for Martinac. I sure see it as a major case of the pot calling the kettle black by Todd/Vigor when they complain about Martinac coming in with a bid 67% percent above "market rate." Todd's bid for the STII design was about 100% higher than the price Pierce County paid for the original. When that was rejected by WSF as too much for too little boat they ended up paying more than 100% above the price of the Island Home. Then WFS went in for three of the toy boats that again cost to much and do to little. Now Vigor is charging $115,000,000 for what would be a $70,000,000 boat if it were bid competitively and they complain when one of their single bid "partners" asks for an above market rate price for their slice of the the above market rate pie!!! If WFS is ever going to have a prayer of replacing the Evergreens, Supers and Jumbos to provide reliable and cost effective service in the 21st century they are going to have to end this "built in Washington" single bid fiasco. The Washington taxpayers and ferry riders can't afford this double priced boat form of corporate welfare. I agree. But as long as Mary Margaret Haugen is head of the transportation committee, it won't happen. She's 70 or 71 so we can only hope she'll retire soon and not run for reelection. From what I have gathered, if she does run in 2013 she's going to have a hard time of it. Let me tell ya MMH might not be that great, but the one that is after her seat is Barbara Bailey,and yeah.. this would be so much worse I can't begin to tell you. I'd personally say neither of them and hope for someone else.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Feb 17, 2012 16:35:10 GMT -8
The new 144-car ferry has her first pieces being assembled. Mr Moseley explains: Construction begins on 144-car ferry
Yesterday Vigor Shipyards began welding steel together for the first hull module of the first new 144-car ferry. This is an important milestone in continuing to build modern vessels to provide our passengers safe and reliable service. We look forward to the partnership with Vigor to bring this boat in on time and on budget. Construction is scheduled for completion in early 2014. www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/weekly/
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Post by chokai on Mar 13, 2012 18:18:12 GMT -8
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Post by chokai on Apr 25, 2012 13:14:50 GMT -8
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Post by paulvanb on Apr 25, 2012 15:09:06 GMT -8
Well, I hope the make the Texas Deck accessible to ferry patrons. ;D
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Post by Kahloke on Apr 25, 2012 17:06:09 GMT -8
This is exciting. I can't wait for the two new boats to enter service. One will probably be at Mukilteo, at least in the summers, and I'm hoping the other one will be placed at Anacortes.
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Post by chokai on Apr 25, 2012 22:59:34 GMT -8
Here's hoping they get the money for 3 and 4. I'm wondering if the legislature stepped up to the plate on the other boats if we might not see the Hyak get refit, or if we'd actually end up one boat. For better or worse seems like all these big projects we've been talking about for so long are "on" right now, light rail, SR-520, SR-99, I-90 Snoqualmie, I-5 @columbia and two classes of new WSF boats...
Pumped for the extra 20 cars at Mukilteo/Clinton as that is my most frequently ridden route and curious to see how it affects dwell time there. Building to suit traffic is interesting Neil, when we build the "round 2" 144's 15 years or so from now it'll be interesting to see what will be changed on them relative to these boats. Or if they'll even build them to the same design for that matter, maybe we'll need more cars, or more passenger capacity or something. I can't recall many situations where boats were planned to be built to the same "design" so far apart in years.
BTW I have been wondering, does anyone know how Vigor is planning to assemble this boat? Obviously the steel work is being done in the building hall they built the KdTs in, but I'm imagining the full hull is to big for that building. That's a long time to give up a dry dock if they don't use the old building ways... I'm curious to see how they approach it.
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Post by chokai on May 19, 2012 16:41:29 GMT -8
Swung by Jack Block park today on a bike ride. The door to the assembly hall is open and you can see that Todd is making good progress with multiple very large pieces assembled and up on blocks already including several structural members in place (not sure what the proper term would be) that are the width of the door. No camera on me unfortunately.
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Post by Freeland on Jun 4, 2012 17:25:40 GMT -8
They are doing work on Bridge and the Passenger Deck at Nichols Brothers in Freeland.
Almost can not tell differance between the 64 car Ferry from the new 144 Car Ferry. Very Similar profile. They are busy welding inside the shipyard today.
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Post by chokai on Jun 19, 2012 11:44:08 GMT -8
The class name will be "Olympic". www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2012/06/19_OlympicClassFerries.htmIt's a good choice, though I would prefer a class name in one of the local native languages it is certainly better that "Issaquah Mark II" or whatever it might have been. Since Olympic is the class name Quinault would be an excellent name for one of the first ferries given that the river is in the range and park and the name has a pretty hefty ferry history, to say the least. Though I certainly hope to see a few unusued or lesser used names appear.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Jun 19, 2012 15:12:46 GMT -8
The class name will be "Olympic". www.wsdot.wa.gov/News/2012/06/19_OlympicClassFerries.htmIt's a good choice, though I would prefer a class name in one of the local native languages it is certainly better that "Issaquah Mark II" or whatever it might have been. Since Olympic is the class name Quinault would be an excellent name for one of the first ferries given that the river is in the range and park and the name has a pretty hefty ferry history, to say the least. Though I certainly hope to see a few unusued or lesser used names appear. This is a great choice for the new class of ferries. I was going with a "Coastal" kind of class, though. You'll have to access the Sun Deck from inside the cabin areas aboard the new ferries, the same that you do aboard the BC "Coastal" Class. No exterior ladders between the pickle forks and the Sun Deck (other multi-passenger-deck ferries, like the Supers, Jumbos, and KDT ferries have exterior ladders that provide access between the pickle forks and the Sun Deck aboard those ones). I think the name choice of MV QUINAULT is out on this class, though, due to the retirement of the Steel-Electrics. We'll see what happens. I'd love to see a new MV QUINAULT II. Have to dig up some good Olympic Peninsula native names for these new ferries.
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