|
Post by Dane on Jun 4, 2016 16:37:43 GMT -8
It's been a few years since I was on WSF but I do remember and appreciate that speediness. It felt, unscientifically, like we even approached berths faster in Washington.
BC Ferries has had a fairly eventful history of various bad things happening at terminals during loading / unloading (side fact I don't wear my seatbelt when crossing the ramp in the rare event I go for a swim). I'd be curious to know if Washington has a similar history. As I indirectly referenced above, though, the comparative simplicity of Washington's ships & terminals is also advantageous to speedier procedures - sort of like the Queen of Capilano which gets business done a lot faster (not withstanding the time to actually travel down that long ramp) in Bowen than Horseshoe Bay where there's often a footie ramp deployed.
Langdale is certainly an unfortunate case of awkward docking procedures. Even more pronounced when ships need to swap between the two berths... It looks time consuming, complicated, and very fuel intensive. When I used to work out that way I did get told more than once that the berth(s) were never re-aligned because of wind issues which could complicate things even more.
|
|
|
Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 4, 2016 17:23:09 GMT -8
True. A trivial legacy to a family destroyed back in 1992. I can't quite tell if the Low Light Mike response above is straight up or a slightly sarcastic response to my comment about the Nemetz lights. Regardless, I just want to expand a bit. No sarcasm intended. You had mentioned the Nemetz lights, and that got me thinking of their purpose, and also of the tragedy that resulted in the Nathan Nemetz inquiry. And when I thought about the August 1992 accident, and compared it to resulting slower-departures, "trivial" seemed the appropriate word. Timely departures and speed is important to an efficient system, but for me the name "Nemetz lights" always takes me back to that bad day. I was 24 years old when that happened and that accident got lots of media coverage. It was a very sad story for that family. So the term "Nemetz lights" means something more to me than just a set of flashing lights. If anyone would like to read up on this, here's a link to a coroner's investigation into the death of a 10-year-old girl in that family, along with Nathan Nemetz's recommendations. 10 years old.... - the other deaths were the mom, and the other daughter. Surviving was the dad, his mother in-law, and a child friend of the kids. HERE
|
|
|
Post by WettCoast on Jun 4, 2016 20:28:54 GMT -8
If anyone would like to read up on this, here's a link to a coroner's investigation into the death of a 10-year-old girl in that family, along with Nathan Nemetz's recommendations. 10 years old.... - the other deaths were the mom, and the other daughter. Surviving was the dad, his mother in-law, and a child friend of the kids. HEREThat is a sobering report. I remember that accident but have never read any of the details about what happened & what corrective actions resulted from it.
In my travels on WSF vessels (which are admittedly not extensive) I noted the speed at which they approached the dock, and then left again following unloading/loading. I have thought that maybe it is too fast and safety is being compromised. Having said that I am fairly sure that WSF's has had a much better safety record than BCF's with regard to berthing/ unberthing incidents (I could be mistaken about this). I believe that BC Ferries could tighten up procedures so as to gain a few minutes while not compromising on safe working practices. Further, as one who travels several times yearly on northern route vessels I wish they would 'get the lead out' especially when unloading a vessel. The elapsed time between a vessel being tied up at the terminal and my vehicle arriving 'on shore' typically seems to be about half an hour. I am hard pressed to understand why it takes that long...
|
|
Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
|
Post by Koastal Karl on Jun 4, 2016 20:43:16 GMT -8
The numerous WSF trips I have done even on the Coho too I noticed how fast they dock unload and load! BC Ferries seems really slow compared to WSF!
|
|
|
Post by northwesterner on Jun 4, 2016 21:44:13 GMT -8
This was not the video I was thinking about that I mentioned in my above post (where literally the apron and ramp are raised and the props start spinning seconds after the last car boards) but it is still relevant.
Look closely at the time stamps...
0:17 - Last car on board 0:30 - Gate arm lowered 0:35 - Both mooring lines untied 0:42 - Last three passengers on board via overhead walkway 1:05 - Apron/ramp clear of the car deck 1:25 - Car deck netting in place 1:42 - Prop spins up, vessel underway
Does anyone think BCF could get the Queen of Nanaimo away from Tsawassen as quickly as that crew got the Spokane away from Kingston?
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,150
|
Post by Neil on Jun 4, 2016 22:42:06 GMT -8
I agree with the gist of the above comments. BC Ferries is ponderously slow in both dock approaches and departures, and loading. Part of it is because of fuel saving measures, as vessels on minor routes, and some major, drift into dock. But, like WettCoast, I'm frequently mystified as to delays in loading. Sometimes you're sitting there with nothing happening. And the tie up/ untying and ramp procedures seem to take far longer than with WSF vessels. Given that WSF has a pretty good record with regard to serious mishaps, I wonder if BC Ferries is slowed down by overly careful TC dictates. The recently reported traffic related delay on the Powell River - Comox route seems a bit ridiculous; there's enough dock time that the 'Burnaby should be able to unload and load. Of course... the fact they're saving fuel by running her at fourteen knots maximum does tighten things up a bit.
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Jun 5, 2016 20:48:07 GMT -8
Looks like route 2 at Departure Bay left behind about 50 cars behind after the last sailing. On this date the Queen of Oak Bay was out of service as a truck / trailer was caught on the ramp. Quite an inconvenient mess for those stuck, but I suppose not quite busy enough for an extra sailing. Route 3 which also had high volume as extra sailings were cancelled to allow the Coquitlam to replace the Oak Bay did get an additional round trip at the end of service.
|
|
|
Post by yak on Jun 5, 2016 21:31:08 GMT -8
The Nemetz lights and the associated procedure don't help the expediency of the loading/unloading procedure at BCF. There are lots of reasons for loading to take the entire turnaround time; however, Nemetz Lights, Imminent Departure Lights and other procedures followed by BC Ferries to ensure the safe loading and unloading of the vessel don't really impact the expediency of getting out of the dock. Pre-departure checks on the bridge largely occur concurrently with the Mate securing the car deck and the lifting of the ramp apron. After the bridge gets clearance from the Mate the "strobes" (Imminent Departure Lights) are for only 30 seconds before departure is commenced; I'd suggest that is about the extent of the "delay". Remember that if there is busy traffic both ways (or if there is a delay such as a dead battery) it takes time to not only load but also unload vehicles from a ship the size of the Burnaby. My experience is with the Nanaimo, and granted Route 9 is very different, but during "peak" traffic every minute counts when trying to leave on time - even with a 40 minute turnaround in Tsawwassen. The lanes on these ships were designed for 1960's era vehicles and I don't think anyone envisioned 50' 5th wheels...
|
|
|
Post by yak on Jun 5, 2016 22:43:19 GMT -8
I agree with the gist of the above comments. BC Ferries is ponderously slow in both dock approaches and departures, and loading. Part of it is because of fuel saving measures, as vessels on minor routes, and some major, drift into dock. But, like WettCoast, I'm frequently mystified as to delays in loading. Sometimes you're sitting there with nothing happening. And the tie up/ untying and ramp procedures seem to take far longer than with WSF vessels. Given that WSF has a pretty good record with regard to serious mishaps, I wonder if BC Ferries is slowed down by overly careful TC dictates. The recently reported traffic related delay on the Powell River - Comox route seems a bit ridiculous; there's enough dock time that the ' Burnaby should be able to unload and load. Of course... the fact they're saving fuel by running her at fourteen knots maximum does tighten things up a bit. Let me preface my post by being clear that I am speaking from my own experience and not as any sort of ferry representative. So, just to share a few things regarding docking and ramp procedures. Fuel has never been part of the equation on the ships I've worked on when it came to approaching a dock - we come in at the speed that is comfortable and safe for the operator given the conditions. However, you are correct that while navigating the ferries do generally operate at an efficient cruising speed rather than "top speed" unless they are trying to catch up to the schedule. As you can imagine with any ferry route there are several routine things that have to happen when coming into a dock. For BC Ferries (at least the ones I've worked on) these things include establishing contact with the terminal, performing a series of checks, and undertaking a series of maneuvers (ie. intial speed reduction and stern pitch) when approaching the berth. All of these things must be completed (and logged) before docking can commence. Depending on the conditions it may be safer to approach with more or less speed and the ship-handler will constantly adjust based on factors such as wind and tide as well as known characteristics of a dock. For example, Otter Bay on Pender Island has less forgiving pads on the wing-walls so a Captain will be more apt to make a slower approach into that dock. In several docks low tide means that it will require much more pitch to slow the vessel as interaction with the bottom is increased - as one Master I work with puts it "Barnacles mean brakes!" The point is that no two berthings are exactly the same and the professional mariners at the helm make judgement calls based on their experience to ensure the safest and most efficient landings. One thing I wouldn't do is "drift" into a dock as that is a condition where there is very little control. I mentioned in my last post that I don't feel that BC Ferries safety procedures particularly impact loading/unloading times. Delays at the dock to occur for a number of reasons though - many of which I can see not being immediately recognizable to passengers. Here are some things off the top of my head: * The ship will wait at a dock simply because we are actually early and do not receive clearance from the terminal until ticket sales are cut off . To an observer this may look like "slow ramp procedures" * We are waiting for vessel traffic to clear; at terminals with more than one berth sometimes there is a conflict between two or more ferries * Traffic. 40 minutes goes fast if there is anything out of the ordinary. Heavy traffic or oversized traffic is a challenge on a vessel like the Burnaby or the Nanaimo. All it takes is one dead battery in the wrong lane and the schedule could be shot. Recreational drivers in big campers have to be watched closely. Missing drivers in the terminal (a huge issue on a busy day). Elevator access vehicles that need to be loaded at a specific time in the sequence. A glut of inexperienced ferry riders during the holidays. Heavy walk-on traffic with bicycles on the car deck. Etc. Etc. When it comes to the actual ramp procedure, there isn't too much that could be made more efficient. From the ship's point of view at a manned terminal it goes more or less like this (the Cliffs Notes version): Lowering the ramp: 1. The bridge buzzes the car deck to indicate clearance to lower the apron 2. The loading officer signals the ramp attendant to lower the apron 3. The ramp attendant signals that the ramp is secured and the pins are in; the loading officer confirms the signal and the deckhands make fast the lines. 4. The loading officer contacts the bridge and confirms the apron is on the deck and the lines are secure, he also switches on the Nemetz Light. The bridge clears the officer to unload/load. Raising the ramp: 1. The loading officer confirms that the ramp barrier is down and instructs the deckhands to release the lines. 2. The loading officer signals the ramp attendant to raise the apron. "Barrier down, apron up and lines off" is verbally confirmed with a deckhand. 3. The loading officer switches off the Nemetz Light and contacts the bridge confirming "Barrier down, apron up and lines off" as well as the passenger count. 4. The Imminent Departure Lights are activated from the bridge and 30 seconds pass before departure can be conducted. In practice on the Queen of Nanaimo, I would estimate that from the time the bridge buzzes the car deck until the time the first walk-off passengers are getting off the ship is 45 seconds to a minute. Also, I would estimate that from the time the barrier is lowered on the ramp until the time the Imminent Departure Lights are activated would be only 30 to 45 seconds. There are two exceptions I can think of: First, when the ship is particularly busy the Mate may have to wait an extra 30 seconds or so for a deckhand involved in parking traffic to make his or her way to the bow to let go of the lines. Second, in Tsawwassen the Mate gets clearance from the control tower rather than the ramp attendant and this is granted only after the barrier is down; this clearance is done via a phone in the ramp booth and it adds a minute or so to the procedure. The 30 seconds waiting for the Imminent Departure Lights isn't even really wasted as there are other things happening on the bridge in that time such as making traffic calls. Anyway, sorry for the long post but I hope that it provides some insight at least into my experiences with the ferries and these particular aspects of the schedule.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2016 6:56:33 GMT -8
To add to the above post, the control transfer on the double-ended, double-bridge vessels also takes some time (though that is made up by not having to back out). The second officer is in the inshore bridge doing the transfer with the Master, who is in the offshore bridge. Once complete, the second officer must actually walk to the offshore bridge before the vessel can leave the dock. Until then, all the Master can do is push the bow off of the wing-walls.
|
|
|
Post by Dane on Jun 6, 2016 6:59:51 GMT -8
These posts are very interesting to me - so please don't view this as a criticism - but - the BCFS "versus" Washington factor hasn't been addressed much by people in the know. It's just curious the two systems accomplish the same job faster, and without the same number of crushed hay trucks. In all seriousness the time difference isn't that substantial but certainly noticeable. The old age, double ended, awkward layout issues plague both systems.
|
|
|
Post by Kahloke on Jun 6, 2016 7:30:49 GMT -8
The things Yak mentioned that can impact loading and unloading times appear to be issues that affect many ferry systems, including both WSF and BC Ferries. Hang out in Friday Harbor sometime on a summer mid-day, and watch how long it takes to unload a Super Class vessel into a very congested downtown area with no quick easy outlet for off-loading vehicles. That is why both the 11:00 and 13:50 FH to Anacortes departures have 50 minute dwell times built into the schedule, and sometimes that is not enough. Add to that the complexities in loading the narrow Super Class vessels, especially with multiple-destination loads, and it starts to look pretty similar to the issues the SGI crews face with your older vessels (e.g. Queen of Nanaimo) and their multiple stop loads.
I would agree that it seems like WSF's commuter runs of the Central Sound are more efficient and quicker with the landing/departure sequences, but I attribute that to the frequency of service and single destination loads. They are not very complex when you compare it to the San Juans, SGI, and other routes in the BC Ferries system. WSF also doesn't have that whole upper vehicle ramp configuration to deal with like BC Ferries major routes. That adds a level of complexity that WSF simply does not have to deal with.
|
|
|
Post by yak on Jun 6, 2016 19:44:34 GMT -8
These posts are very interesting to me - so please don't view this as a criticism - but - the BCFS "versus" Washington factor hasn't been addressed much by people in the know. It's just curious the two systems accomplish the same job faster, and without the same number of crushed hay trucks. In all seriousness the time difference isn't that substantial but certainly noticeable. The old age, double ended, awkward layout issues plague both systems. I can't help too much with perceived differences between the two systems as I've never had the pleasure of riding on a WSF vessel and I am therefore missing a point of reference. However, the main thrust of my posts was that BC Ferries safety culture has minimal impact on how quickly the ships make it in and out of the dock and that other factors do play a large role in how smoothly a turnaround occurs. In the Southern Gulf Islands a significant factor affecting how long it takes to load and discharge is foot traffic. The inter-island ports do not have overhead walkways and all foot traffic is discharged from the main car deck. During peak times this could mean dozens of bicycles and a hundred or more foot passengers. In some places I am waiting for several minutes while stragglers finally clear the ramp and trestle before I'll start moving vehicle traffic - a period that far exceeds the actual raising and lowering of the ramp.
|
|
Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,150
|
Post by Neil on Jun 6, 2016 21:26:33 GMT -8
These posts are very interesting to me - so please don't view this as a criticism - but - the BCFS "versus" Washington factor hasn't been addressed much by people in the know. It's just curious the two systems accomplish the same job faster, and without the same number of crushed hay trucks. In all seriousness the time difference isn't that substantial but certainly noticeable. The old age, double ended, awkward layout issues plague both systems. I can't help too much with perceived differences between the two systems as I've never had the pleasure of riding on a WSF vessel and I am therefore missing a point of reference. However, the main thrust of my posts was that BC Ferries safety culture has minimal impact on how quickly the ships make it in and out of the dock and that other factors do play a large role in how smoothly a turnaround occurs. In the Southern Gulf Islands a significant factor affecting how long it takes to load and discharge is foot traffic. The inter-island ports do not have overhead walkways and all foot traffic is discharged from the main car deck. During peak times this could mean dozens of bicycles and a hundred or more foot passengers. In some places I am waiting for several minutes while stragglers finally clear the ramp and trestle before I'll start moving vehicle traffic - a period that far exceeds the actual raising and lowering of the ramp. yak, as you say, you haven't experienced the WSF docking and loading procedures. You've provided us with some really valuable insights into why BC Ferries does things the way they do; I'd be intrigued to get your comparisons with our neighbours to the south.
Even on WSF routes with no passenger walkway, they just seem to get things done faster. Vessel approach, docking and ramp chores, unloading/loading and departure just don't take as much time. Look at their schedules and their dock times- granted, they don't have 360 car vessels, but I don't think BC Ferries could do what they do in the same time frame. To a layman, it seems like no time from when they touch the berth to when people and cars are disembarking.
The so-called 'minor routes' here in BC have been really hit hard by economy measures, and I don't think I'm imagining things when I recall a time when a ferry would make a quicker approach to the dock, with wake billowing out as it 'put on the brakes'. A retired senior master on the Hornby route recalled how he cleared a backlog by sailing faster and making what he referred to as 'aggressive' dock approaches. These days, that boat, officially rated at ten knots, is operated at six, or seven, tops. Approaches are anything but aggressive. Whether this is fuel economy, updated safety concerns, or simply the age of the vessel, I don't know.
The two systems seem to get things done at a different pace. I'd love to know the reason for that.
|
|
|
Post by northwesterner on Jun 6, 2016 22:52:05 GMT -8
To add to the above post, the control transfer on the double-ended, double-bridge vessels also takes some time (though that is made up by not having to back out). The second officer is in the inshore bridge doing the transfer with the Master, who is in the offshore bridge. Once complete, the second officer must actually walk to the offshore bridge before the vessel can leave the dock. Until then, all the Master can do is push the bow off of the wing-walls. Is this procedure due to regulation or policy?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2016 7:48:54 GMT -8
To add to the above post, the control transfer on the double-ended, double-bridge vessels also takes some time (though that is made up by not having to back out). The second officer is in the inshore bridge doing the transfer with the Master, who is in the offshore bridge. Once complete, the second officer must actually walk to the offshore bridge before the vessel can leave the dock. Until then, all the Master can do is push the bow off of the wing-walls. Is this procedure due to regulation or policy? Pretty sure it's a BCF policy.
|
|
|
Post by hwy19man on Jun 30, 2016 23:24:55 GMT -8
The Canada Day long weekend traffic was very busy for the major routes. Routes 1 and 30 were sold out from TSA and route 2 had the Cowichan do an extra round trip at 2105h and 2305h. The extra sailing from HSB was 60% full! The final sailing at 2235h on route 3 was 56% full. I think Friday morning will be exceptionally busy again.
|
|
|
Post by yak on Jun 30, 2016 23:39:06 GMT -8
The Canada Day long weekend traffic was very busy for the major routes. Routes 1 and 30 were sold out from TSA and route 2 had the Cowichan do an extra round trip at 2105h and 2305h. The extra sailing from HSB was 60% full! The final sailing at 2235h on route 3 was 56% full. I think Friday morning will be exceptionally busy again. Route 9 was right up against the maximum passenger count (953 persons) tonight even with Route 9a running with the Bowen Queen. Nearly 200 passengers were transfers for Saturna Island alone...
|
|
Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
|
Post by Koastal Karl on Jul 1, 2016 7:36:02 GMT -8
The Skeena also did a round trip to Otter Bay after her last Fulford sailing as sailings were full to the Gulf Islands for the last two sailings! Cumberland was over an hour behind as she was leaving Saturna at like 11:30pm last night! Busy and late night for some of the crews out there! I have also never seen the 11:05pm from Horseshoe Bay to Nanaimo almost full! That sailing is usually empty!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2016 9:56:39 GMT -8
The Canada Day long weekend traffic was very busy for the major routes. Routes 1 and 30 were sold out from TSA and route 2 had the Cowichan do an extra round trip at 2105h and 2305h. The extra sailing from HSB was 60% full! The final sailing at 2235h on route 3 was 56% full. I think Friday morning will be exceptionally busy again. Route 9 was right up against the maximum passenger count (953 persons) tonight even with Route 9a running with the Bowen Queen. Nearly 200 passengers were transfers for Saturna Island alone... The reduced passenger capacity might prove problematic with the two Salish boats (1,170 versus 1,335 on the Nanaimo and Bowen Queen). With the Bowen Queen in service, do you guys have a cap for reservable spaces to a specific Island (i.e. SSI)?
|
|
|
Post by yak on Jul 1, 2016 22:40:51 GMT -8
Route 9 was right up against the maximum passenger count (953 persons) tonight even with Route 9a running with the Bowen Queen. Nearly 200 passengers were transfers for Saturna Island alone... The reduced passenger capacity might prove problematic with the two Salish boats (1,170 versus 1,335 on the Nanaimo and Bowen Queen). With the Bowen Queen in service, do you guys have a cap for reservable spaces to a specific Island (i.e. SSI)? I am not on the ticketing side and this is my first summer with the ferries so I am not sure of all the intricacies. We see different islands making up the bulk of our traffic on different days - especially with 9a running. We've seen Village Bay or Sturdies Bay outnumbering Long Harbour significantly with the Bowen running to Saltspring more directly than we do. That has meant getting a little more creative with deck space since the default has generally been to put Long Harbour traffic on the ramps and out of the way but the numbers don't justify doing that when we have more inter-island traffic.
|
|
|
Post by Scott on Jul 2, 2016 9:26:44 GMT -8
The Canada Day long weekend traffic was very busy for the major routes. Routes 1 and 30 were sold out from TSA and route 2 had the Cowichan do an extra round trip at 2105h and 2305h. The extra sailing from HSB was 60% full! The final sailing at 2235h on route 3 was 56% full. I think Friday morning will be exceptionally busy again. Route 9 was right up against the maximum passenger count (953 persons) tonight even with Route 9a running with the Bowen Queen. Nearly 200 passengers were transfers for Saturna Island alone... I think you will find the heavy Saturna Island transfer load a "one-off". They have their annual Lamb Roast on July 1st which, I think, has become very popular over the years. Most (probably all) other weekends this summer won't have that number of transfers to Saturna. - John H
|
|
|
Post by hwy19man on Jul 10, 2016 20:17:33 GMT -8
Route 1 has been busy on both sides on this Sunday with two waits starting at 1400h from TSA. The 2100h sailing at both terminals left full and the 2200h from SWB is already at 61% capacity and just 13% from TSA.
Route 2 had one wait since 1200h on both sides. The 1930h sailings were full and so is the 2105h from Departure Bay. The 2135h from Dep. Bay is at 40% capacity. Routes 3 and 30 have been quiet with no waits for most of the day.
|
|
|
Post by hwy19man on Jul 15, 2016 20:05:32 GMT -8
The SOVI has been behind schedule since leaving SWB at 1100h and is now 30 minutes behind schedule. The SBC is twenty minutes behind. All other vessels on the major routes are mostly on time to a maximum of 15 minutes behind. It is strange that there is a service notice for the SOVI, but, not the SBC. www.bcferries.com/bcfservicenotice?id=975612
Route 1 from TSA has been the busiest with two waits since 1300h and the 2100h was full too. The 2200 is currently at 10% capacity. From SWB, just one wait until 2000h with the 2100h only at 30% capacity.
Route 2 had one wait in both directions for most of the day. The 2130h from HSB is already 75% full and has been fluctuating up to 82% for the past hour. From Dep. Bay, the 1930h was not full.
Route 3 from HSB had just one wait in the afternoon and has been quiet since.
Route 30 has had two waits for overheight traffic all day from TSA and the 2245h has been full since 2030h for overheights.
|
|
|
Post by hwy19man on Jul 17, 2016 22:08:06 GMT -8
The Oak Bay is 40 minutes behind schedule. www.bcferries.com/bcfservicenotice?id=976451 The 2130h from Dep. Bay was full so some folks will have a late night as Route 30 had plenty of room for overheight traffic on the 2245h from Duke Point. The final sailing was only at 74% capacity. Route 2 had two waits from Dep. Bay had one or two waits. Route 30 was not as busy.
The Spirit vessels were approximately 20 minutes behind schedule and only one wait through out the day at both terminals. The 2200h from SWB was at 76% capacity and from TSA it was 50% full.
|
|