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Post by mybidness459 on Nov 2, 2016 16:40:49 GMT -8
Interesting design. As a passenger I prefer to be able to have a view from above the car deck so that I can see what's on both sides of the vessel rather than have to walk through the maze of parked cars. The Quinsam is a pain in the neck. I rode on the SKeena Queen once and Liked the Idea of been allowed up top of the lounge. But truthfully on a short run of 10 minutes it doesn't really matter.
When I am on a longer run or in a heavy traffic zone such as the Nanaimo to Gabriola or the CR-Qcove runs I like to see other vessels in the area therefore in my opinion some sort of passenger deck or access above the car deck makes the voyage more pleasant and is a must.
Now after about 10 or so years of my yearly summer trips on the Powell River Queen people say that the ship is way too big for the winter and too small for the Summer on the Campbell River to Quadra Island run. The problem is trying to build vessels for routes that meets the need year round. Unfortunately there is no such thing as a "Goldilocks" vessle that is just right year round. Unless someone one could find a way to extend the ship in the summer and then take the piece out in the winter. Think of your kitchen table here, you can extend it when needed.
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Post by Curtis on Nov 3, 2016 16:30:31 GMT -8
Here's an article from the Powell River Peak about the new vessels. There's some interesting new notes in this article which I've bolded in the quote bubble below. Link to Article: www.prpeak.com/news/bc-ferries-unveils-vessel-replacement-plan-1.2447349I'm sure we all knew the NIP was going to be on the chopping block first, but it's a little bit surprising to see the Howe Sound Queen as the second vessel being replaced. I would have thought she'd be grouped in with the replacements for the Powell River Class vessels. I guess it makes sense though considering the age of the HSQ. Plus she's also a vessel with a smaller vehicle capacity than is officially stated. I don't expect the second of the "Minor 44 Class" (or whatever we're calling it) to be placed on Route 6, perhaps we might be seeing more Quinitsa on Route 6?
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Post by timmyc on Nov 3, 2016 16:57:41 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 3, 2016 19:26:07 GMT -8
Yes, but who would ever expect one of these to operate across Skidegate Inlet, or for that matter, across Hecate Strait, or any other North Coast route? One of this new class would more than double the auto capacity of the Kwuna, and then there are the unique 'berths' on either end of the run to contend with. There are without doubt many benefits to increased standardization across the BCF fleet. But there is also a downside, and that downside may in the long run negate the benefits of standardization. Some of the downside 'issues' that come to mind for me are as follows: - Operating a 'standardized' vessel that is too big or small (in vehicle and/or passenger capacity) for the particular route that it is assigned to.
- A one-sized passenger cabin 'fits all' again is less than ideal as it depends on the length of the run, and the number of foot passengers common on that run.
- A vessel designed to operate over rough seas common on some routes (e.g. Quadra - Cortes) will be over-built for sheltered routes, and would probably cost more to build & operate than would be the case with a simpler vessel.
I am sure that there are other significant factors that go against increased standardization.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Nov 3, 2016 21:59:16 GMT -8
Yes, but who would ever expect one of these to operate across Skidegate Inlet, or for that matter, across Hecate Strait, or any other North Coast route? One of this new class would more than double the auto capacity of the Kwuna, and then there are the unique 'berths' on either end of the run to contend with. There are without doubt many benefits to increased standardization across the BCF fleet. But there is also a downside, and that downside may in the long run negate the benefits of standardization. Some of the downside 'issues' that come to mind for me are as follows: - Operating a 'standardized' vessel that is too big or small (in vehicle and/or auto capacity) for the particular route that it is assigned to.
- A one-sized passenger cabin 'fits all' again is less than ideal as it depends on the length of the run, and the number of foot passengers common on that run.
- A vessel designed to operate over rough seas common on some routes (e.g. Quadra - Cortes) will be over-built for sheltered routes, and would probably cost more to build & operate than would be the case with a simpler vessel.
I am sure that there are other significant factors that go against increased standardization. I agree. One of these vessels would be absurd on the Alliford Bay run, and I don't recall the last time service to Vesuvius or Thetis was cancelled due to weather, so seakeeping there doesn't seem to be a compelling issue. And are they really saying that a 44 car vessel is not a step down at Vesuvius?
Interchangeability is a good thing- but you only need some vessels to fit that bill. Sometimes route specific makes sense- look at the big hulking boat WSF has on their Tahlequah run, when a specifically designed Quinsam type vessel would have saved construction and fuel costs on a ten minute route with modest foot passenger figures.
Texada, Cortes, Sointula and Hornby have very challenging seasonal conditions, and require seakeeping abilities. I don't know where Alliford Bay fits in with regard to that, but it seems to require a much smaller boat. Vesuvius is busier but sheltered, and Thetis & Penelakut are more sheltered as well. Perhaps they've crunched the numbers and decided that seven boats from one design are the best bet, but I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see more variation in this plan.
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Post by Kahloke on Nov 4, 2016 11:27:53 GMT -8
I agree. One of these vessels would be absurd on the Alliford Bay run, and I don't recall the last time service to Vesuvius or Thetis was cancelled due to weather, so seakeeping there doesn't seem to be a compelling issue. And are they really saying that a 44 car vessel is not a step down at Vesuvius? Interchangeability is a good thing- but you only need some vessels to fit that bill. Sometimes route specific makes sense- look at the big hulking boat WSF has on their Tahlequah run, when a specifically designed Quinsam type vessel would have saved construction and fuel costs on a ten minute route with modest foot passenger figures. Texada, Cortes, Sointula and Hornby have very challenging seasonal conditions, and require seakeeping abilities. I don't know where Alliford Bay fits in with regard to that, but it seems to require a much smaller boat. Vesuvius is busier but sheltered, and Thetis & Penelakut are more sheltered as well. Perhaps they've crunched the numbers and decided that seven boats from one design are the best bet, but I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see more variation in this plan. Your last sentence makes a lot of sense. Start with the basic design we see here, but modify it for the varying needs of different routes. The current 44AEQ design with the bow doors could probably work for the following routes:Port McNeil - Alert Bay - Sointula (after QQII is retired or re-depolyed, this would be a nice capacity boost there) Heriot Bay - Whaletown (once again, after Tachek is eventually retired, and this, too, would be a capacity boost) Powell River - Texada Island (the most likely deployment for the first vessel of this type, to replace NIP. It doesn't really do anything to address future growth, however, but that strategy seems to be consistent with the new-builds as of late) Denman East - Hornby Island (after Kahloke is retired, and once again, a nice capacity boost) A stretched version, something in the 70-80 AEQ range, perhaps without bow doors, would be more ideal for the higher traffic, and more sheltered routes:Campbell River - Quadra Island (to replace PRQ) Vesuvius Bay - Crofton (to replace HSQ) Nanaimo Harbour - Gabriola (eventual replacement of Quinsam?) I'm not sure if stretching this design to meet the demands of the above routes makes economic sense or not, but I imagine BC Ferries is thinking about all the possible replacement scenarios for their aging fleet. As for the design itself, I am not a huge fan of having the passenger lounge on the car deck, but I understand the reasons for doing it. It will definitely save them money not having to install a passenger elevator, among other considerations. Like everyone else here, I am curious how this is going to play out.
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Post by roeco on Nov 4, 2016 12:48:59 GMT -8
I wonder if maybe it wouldn't be better to have a passenger cabin on both sides of the car deck? Especially on any larger minor vessel
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Post by Mike C on Nov 4, 2016 13:55:25 GMT -8
I agree. One of these vessels would be absurd on the Alliford Bay run, and I don't recall the last time service to Vesuvius or Thetis was cancelled due to weather, so seakeeping there doesn't seem to be a compelling issue. And are they really saying that a 44 car vessel is not a step down at Vesuvius? Interchangeability is a good thing- but you only need some vessels to fit that bill. Sometimes route specific makes sense- look at the big hulking boat WSF has on their Tahlequah run, when a specifically designed Quinsam type vessel would have saved construction and fuel costs on a ten minute route with modest foot passenger figures. Texada, Cortes, Sointula and Hornby have very challenging seasonal conditions, and require seakeeping abilities. I don't know where Alliford Bay fits in with regard to that, but it seems to require a much smaller boat. Vesuvius is busier but sheltered, and Thetis & Penelakut are more sheltered as well. Perhaps they've crunched the numbers and decided that seven boats from one design are the best bet, but I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see more variation in this plan. A stretched version, something in the 70-80 AEQ range, perhaps without bow doors, would be more ideal for the higher traffic, and more sheltered routes:Campbell River - Quadra Island (to replace PRQ) Vesuvius Bay - Crofton (to replace HSQ) Nanaimo Harbour - Gabriola (eventual replacement of Quinsam?) I'm not sure if stretching this design to meet the demands of the above routes makes economic sense or not, but I imagine BC Ferries is thinking about all the possible replacement scenarios for their aging fleet. As for the design itself, I am not a huge fan of having the passenger lounge on the car deck, but I understand the reasons for doing it. It will definitely save them money not having to install a passenger elevator, among other considerations. Like everyone else here, I am curious how this is going to play out. I would say this is probably in the cards, however I am thinking that a passenger cabin on the main deck might not be adequate for other routes with the same AEQ, such as Swartz Bay-SGI. I am thinking that probably a cross between this design, and the Cumberland-class, will likely be the preferred option. The PR news article outlined Vesuvius-Crofton as a candidate for a 44 AEQ vessel. While I think that other members on this forum would probably have more experience with this route, it seems to me that a reduction in capacity would not be a good idea. I think Kahloke is thinking along the right lines with a 70-80 capacity vessel. Given the impending retirement of the PRQ-class, I suspect that this will come to fruition. Additionally, the Alliford Bay-Skidegate run seems to have sporadic capacity issues, particularly whenever the Route 11 vessel is in Haida Gwaii. I suspect 44 vehicles is likely adequate for that purpose.
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 4, 2016 14:10:10 GMT -8
Additionally, the Alliford Bay-Skidegate run seems to have sporadic capacity issues, particularly whenever the Route 11 vessel is in Haida Gwaii. I suspect 44 vehicles is likely adequate for that purpose. The current ferry on that route, the Kwuna, is listed as carrying 26 vehicles, but I think its real capacity might be just over 20. I can not foresee a 44-car capacity vessel ever being justified on this route. There is only one town of any consequence (Sandspit) on Moresby Island, and its population is probably around 500 and falling (thanks in part to the BC government/ BC Ferry 'service' that it receives. Moresby Island, however, does have Haida Gwaii's main airport, which does generate significant traffic for the Kwuna.
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Post by mybidness459 on Nov 4, 2016 14:14:03 GMT -8
With respect to the Alliford Bay-Skidegate Run I would wonder if such a new vessle would be able to use the existing ramp that the Nor-AD and Nor-EX uses. But at Alliford Bay a berth and Ramp Structure would have to be built. Otherwise the new vessle would have to have ramps built into the ships design which would make the practicallity of it been used else where in the fleet not feasable.
The only way I can see this working is building a berth and ramp at Alliford Bay Otherwise a siminlar K Barge design would need to be employed when mv Kwuna is to be replaced.
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Post by yak on Nov 4, 2016 14:22:40 GMT -8
The PR news article outlined Vesuvius-Crofton as a candidate for a 44 AEQ vessel. While I think that other members on this forum would probably have more experience with this route, it seems to me that a reduction in capacity would not be a good idea. I use the Vesuvius-Crofton route fairly frequently (and know several people who work that route) and I'd agree that a reduction in capacity would not go over well. The Quinitsa-as-replacement (a 50 AEQ vessel) when the HSQ was out of service wasn't particularly popular. In the summer and for runs that abut a DG run 44 AEQ wouldn't be very sufficient.
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Post by Dane on Nov 4, 2016 15:28:14 GMT -8
Perhaps like the K / Q class from the Highway days it'll be a quasi-stretch to route requirement build.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 25, 2016 20:10:54 GMT -8
The latest official word on the upcoming minor class of ship:
- from the latest "Management's Discussion & Analysis" report.
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Post by Dane on Nov 25, 2016 20:52:41 GMT -8
Mike, when is the last Q of 2017 for BC Ferries?
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Post by WettCoast on Nov 25, 2016 21:26:19 GMT -8
Mike, when is the last Q of 2017 for BC Ferries? March 31, 2017
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 25, 2016 21:38:58 GMT -8
Mike, when is the last Q of 2017 for BC Ferries? March 31, 2017 True. BCFS' fiscal year runs from April 1st to March 31st and the year-number refers to when March 31st happens. So last quarter in fiscal-2017 is January-March 2017
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Post by Kahn_C on Dec 1, 2016 21:13:13 GMT -8
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Dec 3, 2016 19:02:39 GMT -8
I wonder with the 44 car heading to Port McNeill-Alert Bay-Sointula will the Quadra Queen II become spare or be retired? Hopefully she becomes a spare because she had major upgrade ten years ago after she gets replaces on the route.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Dec 30, 2016 22:00:19 GMT -8
Finally some mention of the Minor-44 ships on the BC Ferry Commissioner's website, even if it's just notice of a future item:
The application will hopefully give us some interesting detail on the upcoming little ships.
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Post by Kahn_C on Jan 4, 2017 7:41:38 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 4, 2017 8:22:10 GMT -8
Bad news for the Crofton - Vesuvius route, which is very busy in mornings and afternoons. An extra round-trip won't help, because demand isn't smooth during the day. Bad previous decisions (cable ferry) resulting in being stuck with a less-than-useful ship in Quinitsa. More from the report: I can understand the arguments for placing Quinitsa on Route 6 (Crofton), but it will take some time for me to get used to used to it. The decision to build the cable ferry left BCFS with Quinitsa, a ship that was likely only suited to it's old route, and not to any others. Now they are stuck using Quinitsa on a less-than-ideal route. It's not as bad of a fit as Quinitsa was on Jervis Inlet, so the Crofton route is a smaller problem for Quinitsa. Overloads in peak times, likely delays because of slightly slower speed, etc.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 4, 2017 10:04:15 GMT -8
A few more key points on the Minor-44 submission report:
- ultra-low sulphur Diesel fuel (no LNG). The slow-speed routes aren't worth the cost of the LNG engines, from a payback point of view.
- No crew overnight accommodations on board (Salish Class has these, but Minor-44 won't)
- Some battery-power to provide running-power reserve
One more issue, it appears this will be a foreign shipyard build:
Two un-named shipyards have been shortlisted, and decision will be made and contract signed in early 2017.
------------------
For anyone interested in BCF ships, I strongly suggest that you read the full report. It's full of all sorts of vessel history and operations issues items that most of us will find interesting.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Jan 4, 2017 22:23:09 GMT -8
I don't quite understand the expected fourteen knot speed. There's not a route these vessels will be sailing that has needed more than twelve, and both the Howe Sound Queen, and the North Island Princess, the first vessels to be retired, operate at around ten knots.
My cynical side finds it interesting that BC Ferries has all of a sudden reduced the long time published AEQ capacities of many 'minor' vessels. The NIP has gone from 49 to 38, Quinitsa from 50 to 44, Howe Sound Queen from 70 to 55 and now 52, Tachek and Quadra Queen from 30 to 26, and so on. Can't help thinking that this is a strategy to make the new vessels' 44 AEQ capacity look better in comparison, to deflect criticism around service cuts. As Mr Horn states, Salt Spring will be absorbing a blow with Quinitsa on route six. Texada will gain no capacity, but will gain in dependability. Quinitsa is not a young vessel, so the switch at Vesuvius is not a long term fix, and it's hard to see one of the Salish class vessels being an eventual solution... one wonders what the vision is, there.
Overall, it's good to see a vision for the long term on the smaller routes, and for the most part, this vessel model probably will work, in a utilitarian fashion.
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Post by vancouverecho on Jan 11, 2017 17:48:55 GMT -8
I don't quite understand the expected fourteen knot speed. There's not a route these vessels will be sailing that has needed more than twelve, and both the Howe Sound Queen, and the North Island Princess, the first vessels to be retired, operate at around ten knots.
My cynical side finds it interesting that BC Ferries has all of a sudden reduced the long time published AEQ capacities of many 'minor' vessels. The NIP has gone from 49 to 38, Quinitsa from 50 to 44, Howe Sound Queen from 70 to 55 and now 52, Tachek and Quadra Queen from 30 to 26, and so on. Can't help thinking that this is a strategy to make the new vessels' 44 AEQ capacity look better in comparison, to deflect criticism around service cuts. As Mr Horn states, Salt Spring will be absorbing a blow with Quinitsa on route six. Texada will gain no capacity, but will gain in dependability. Quinitsa is not a young vessel, so the switch at Vesuvius is not a long term fix, and it's hard to see one of the Salish class vessels being an eventual solution... one wonders what the vision is, there.
Overall, it's good to see a vision for the long term on the smaller routes, and for the most part, this vessel model probably will work, in a utilitarian fashion. It could be a reflection that average car sizes have been increasing steadily over the years, and the same ship in the 1997 can't fit as many vehicles today in 2017 because of increased vehicle sizes.
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 11, 2017 17:59:18 GMT -8
It could be a reflection that average car sizes have been increasing steadily over the years, and the same ship in the 1997 can't fit as many vehicles today in 2017 because of increased vehicle sizes. I have heard people make this claim that the average car size is getting ever bigger, but I would like to see scientifically obtained stats to bear this out. Stats relevant to BC. We do have a lot of big SUV's & pick up trucks around, but there are also lots of little cars about too, especially in the urban areas of BC. One thing I do know is that BC Ferry car decks are rarely 'stacked' the way they once were.
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