BC Ferries Engineering Presentation

[Alberni]

I found this link when I was searching for info on the Queen of Alberni.
www.sname.org/sections/pacific_northwest/images/BCFerriesEngrgPresentationFeb1007.pdf

It seems pretty recent.

[Doug]

Very good. Thanks for that. I highly suggest that everyone read this.

It has information about the Northern Adventure conversion and how they are converting all the northern terminals to a European-style: no onshore ramp. Similar system as the Alliford Bay terminal, only capable of handling a much larger vessel, by the looks of it.

[Taxman]

Looks like ND will only be 60 cars... smaller than the wak.

[Northern Exploration]

Great presentation. Many times we hear all the negatives of what BCFerries isn't. Interesting to see a thorough presentation of what is underway and planned. Cudos to BCFerries for posting it. It shows they are gradually transforming the corporate culture to one that is more open. Thanks Islandguy for posting.

[Coastal Drought]

Thanks for showing that to us islandguy. It was very...informative.

[Ferryman]

Quite a well done presentation, and full of information.

Some highlights for all of us to keep in mind for the long run..........I can just see all of the times I'm gonna have to repeat this to people..........

• Queen of Burnaby pax and machiney upgrade in 2007. (currently happening?)
  
• Quinitsa Mid Life Upgrade in 2007 (I thought this delayed?)
  
• Queen of New Wesminster upgrade for 2008
  
• Quinsam Mid Life Upgrade in 2008
  
• The Northern Discovery might end up being a used vessel, and be in service by 2010
  
• 12 New Minor and Intermediate vessels by 2015
  
• Modifications made to the Northern Adventures Stern are temporary, which will soon be reversed once the Northern Expedition is in service (double stern ramps, square stern...)
  
• New Engines for Q, and K Class vessels
  
• New Engines for the North Island Princess and Mill Bay
  
• Berth 4 at Tsawwassen replacement (similar to the replacment of Berth 2 at Swartz Bay?)
  
• 5 completely different types of docks will be built up North, as seen in the picture below.
  
• Square and curved type docks will be used in Southern Terminals in the future
  

[/b][/li][/ul]

[Political Incorrectness]

Berth 4 TSA I doubt will be a Berth 2 SWB highly due to currents at TSA.

[markkarj]

Very interesting presentation. The one thing I wonder about is in describing the Super C class, they indicate scope for expansion but don't really elaborate.

In your opinion, what kind of expansion could they do to the Super C class? Stretching (would they go back to Flensburger for that, or could BC Ferries do it locally)? Maybe platform decks?

[Political Incorrectness]

Platform decks is a for sure.

[Low Light Mike]

My thoughts, upon reading this:

- The Gabriola-accident cartoon at the beginning made me think this was a hoax-report. Assuming that the report (including this cartoon) are legit, then I find this to be out-of-character of BCFS, to include a cartoon reference to a litigious incident in a publicly-released report. I also find the cartoon's inclusion to be inappropriate for a corporate report; again because of the potentially litigious situation that happened at the Nanaimo harbour terminal. The legal dept of BCFS must surely be grinding their teeth at this cartoon's inclusion. (don't get me wrong, you know that I love silly humour. But even I think that this cartoon is out of place in an official BCFS report, where customer-confidence-in-safety is supposed to be emphasized).

- The far-off vessel "Northern Discovery" is now listed as a "possible used vessel". That's not a big surprise.....

The timeline-table for minor/intermediate vessel replacement is interesting.
- The earliest (Tenaka) is still over 6 years away.
- The MV Mill Bay is not listed for replacement.
- The Nanny is listed for retirement in 2015, which is 9 years after her extensive refit. Is this 9-years a good value for recovery/realization of the costs for this refit? Just curious....
- On the other hand, the New Westminster is listed for retirement in 2021. She is also listed elsewhere for refit in 2008. So this means that there would be 13 years of remaining service after her upcoming major refit, in order to realize some benefit to the refit cost. This sound better than the above 9 for the Nanaimo. I'm likely comparing apples/oranges here re the type of work done in refit, but the 9 years for Nanny does seem short.

- In the Nor-Ad section, there is a picture of a mid-ships seating lounge. The side-windows look adequate for viewing size....and they also look like ice-hockey rinks, complete with lines for the zones.......but I digress.

- Nor-Ex is the vessel that I'm keenly interested in, as BCFS has opportunity to design this vessel specifically for the Inside-Passage route. It looks like there is a large stern outside deck, which is nice for a summer's trip outside. I also count 4 decks that are above the car-deck; similar to QotN with her decks 5-8. However, it looks like Nor-Ex's bridge is on deck #8.

- New engines for NIP & Mill Bay ?? Again, how much remaining useful life will the vessel have to reap the benefits of this upgrade?

- The change to "square berthing" at northern terminals sounds interesting, and I can barely envision what this means....but I think ti means that the ship's car deck that protrudes outside will go from being rounded in shape (like a semi-circle), to being straight across.

[Doug]

ferryman said:

Notice the second line on the right side text: International Ro-Ro compatible, bow or stern. I don't know if I made this clear enough, but I believe this is a similar docking system as they use at Alliford Bay; the wharf structure compensating for a larger ship. The onboard ramp on either the bow or stern of the ship drops onto this platform, and vehicles drive off via the ship's ramp.

[Neil]

Alliford Bay, last time I was there, was a simple concrete ramp, as at a boat launch. Not the same thing.

[Doug]

I'll elaborate this better, as it seems someone wasn't paying attention. What I mean by this, is that the ramp (yes, the "bridge" between the ship and land) in this type of system is fixed to the ship, rather than the berth. Such a structure as shown in the picture is necessary because the Northern Adventure is a much larger vessel than the Kwuna, and cannot come as close to land. I didn't mean they are exactly the same, but to classify all terminals into two systems: one with land-based ramps and one with ship-based ramps, I'd say the two fit in the same category.

Do you understand now, Hornbyguy?

[WettCoast]

hornbyguy said:

Alliford Bay, last time I was there, was a simple concrete ramp, as at a boat launch. Not the same thing.

The Kwuna's berths at both ends of its route are as described by Hornbyguy. They are the same as used on some BC fresh water routes such as Arrow Lakes Shelter Bay to Galena route. The proposed new berthing structures for the Norad and Norex are not similar at all.

It sounds as if the Northern discovery is being envisioned as a ship that will serve the central coast route only, and not as a spare that could serve on the Hecate Strait route, or as the Inside Passage winter boat. This presentation answers some questions while at the same time bringing a bunch more up, at least to this reader.

On another note the proposed retirement date for the QNWM in 2021 means that she will serve BCF for 55+ years. Are they serious? Perhaps Flugel Horn's first impression (that this presentation is a hoax) is correct.

[WettCoast]

Sorry Doug I see your point now re shore baed ramps versus ship ramps. You should have a look at how the Francois Forester lands on the north shore of Francois Lake.

I suspect that a floating structure like the new berth 2 at SWB could fairly easily be converted to this type by removing the ramps and putting them on the ships instead.

[Neil]

Actually, Doug, I was paying attention. I was just focussing on the fact that the Alliford Bay dock is a simple concrete ramp that does not move, unlike this more sophisticated structure. I understand your point.

FlugelHorn: Like you, I did a doubletake when I saw the cartoon. Insensitive, or showing a refreshing ability to laugh at their own misfortunes? Not sure about that.

Wetcoastkid: The Mayne Queen will be just as old as the New West when she retires. We build 'em to last, in BC. ('cause we can't sell them, right, cascade? ) The timelines for new boats was actually published, more or less the same, three years ago. It looks like a number of the smallest boats will be replaced by a standard 60 car model. The plan called for even Cortes to get such a boat.

[Low Light Mike]

The mass-retirement of minor & major ships is interesting in that it is similar to our society's mass-retirement of the baby-boomer employees.

Maybe the ferries retirements will be approx 10 years behind the employee's retirements, but the issue is similar: A lot of vessels enterered service at around the same time......and now they are all needing to be retired/replaced at around the same time.

A scary predicament for both these scenarios.....

[Low Light Mike]

Forgetting the issues of this engineering presentation for a moment, let us briefly consider the legitimacy of this PDF document:

- There is no date anywhere in this document re the presentation date.

- the document is not linked to BCFS's website. Rather, it's from something called www.sname.org

- Mark Collins is listed as the presenter....and he shows up on the BCFS website as the VP-Engineering.

- It appears that this document was not designed for general public presentation......as it's not on the BCFS website.

All this being said, I suggest that we take the presentation's content with a good grain of salt. It is interesting, but we are missing the context with which to read this document.

.......that being said, I went to the above linked website, and did a search for the name "Collins", and I found the elusive context. This presentation was part of a regular monthly meeting of Pacific Northwest naval architects. See the agenda here: www.sname.org/sections/pacific_northwest/images/Notice_February_2007.pdf

[Low Light Mike]

From that Same Feb.10, 2007 meeting of the Pacific Northwest naval architects, here is a link to Chuck Ko's presentation re the rebuild of the ferry MV Kuper.

www.sname.org/sections/pacific_northwest/images/Allied_PresentationFeb1007.pdf

(it's a large document that takes a few seconds to load).

[WettCoast]

hornbyguy said:

Wetcoastkid: The Mayne Queen will be just as old as the New West when she retires. We build 'em to last, in BC. ('cause we can't sell them, right, cascade? ) The time lines for new boats was actually published, more or less the same, three years ago. It looks like a number of the smallest boats will be replaced by a standard 60 car model. The plan called for even Cortes to get such a boat.

So, any speculation re the seven sisters - one of them (the Victoria) does not make 40 years of service. At the other end of the spectrum you have the New West making 56 years. Why? Why are the Vancouver and Esquimalt headed for the bone yard at age 45 (not sure about the Saanich). Some have speculated that the stress on the V's due to the lifting is why they need to go now. But if that is the case then would the same not apply to the QNWM? Also, it works the longest of the south coast routes racking up more miles and hours and at a significantly greater speed then its V class sisters. This vessel had already served 25 years when it received its upper car deck and new engines. By the time of its retirement it will have spent an additional 30 years working the demanding Tsawwassen to Duke Point route.

[Dane]

Re Vic compared to QNW

- New West had full hull upgrades/resteal in 199X when she was rebuilt for use on Rte 30. She also has entirely new engines, newer than all the C Class. She will be old in many respects but has benefited from a better maint. plan than the rest of the fleet. The Victoria on the other hand went as she was in the worst shape of the four Vs. It should be noted when the Vic was going BCF though every V would be gone by fiscal '02.
- Old yes, totally unreasonable? Close.... but BC Ferries... definately!

Re Nanaimo

- 9 years for refit isn't short.... 9 years is like 20% of her life. Almost every shop benefits from this treatment, just with less fanfare than BCFS has given current "rebranding" refits.

Re Mill Bay

- why replace a vessel for a route you (might) contract out? Moreover there should be enough leeway in the fleet to just "slip in" a current vessel w/o a new build. That said, the engine replacement might be a sign of the odd ball kicking around for another 10 000 years LOL

.. the cartoon, given the audience was probably to break the ice. I agree the lawyers may be cringing!

Super Cs

- No ramps?

Norad

- AEQ = 100, don't know where the previous 60 came from?

[Curtis]

A very good report in all ways. Gives us a preview of what to Expect
This 2nd digital pic of the new IM Vessel. Gives us a better look of what she'll look like. Love It.

[Northern Exploration]

I find it a bit curious regarding the estimates of the number of staterooms on the Northern Expedition. The QoftN had 90 staterooms with berths for 210 people. Albeit some of those were below the waterline on the Tween deck below the car deck and above the engineering spaces along with some of the crew quarters. Since the QoftN sinking I don't think they will position staterooms and certainly not crew quarters below the waterline anymore. The presentation if accurate lists the number of staterooms on the North-Ex to be 55 two berth cabins. The North Ex will be 25 metres longers and 4.7 metres wider than the QoftN. (QoftN 125x19.3x4 and North Ex 150x24x5) So it will be a fair bit bigger than the QoftN. It is also a boxier design as shown so far and the trend in shipbuilding is maximizing superstructure over the hull. Why so few staterooms with the anticipated additional traffic the Olympics will bring etc.? The North Ex 130 automobile equivalents is fewer than the original QoftN specs but more than the final specs after the safety doors. One would expect engineers to get it right. On the peak periods I sailed on the QoftN the staterooms seemed very full. Mind you I was never on the Tween deck. Maybe the number is inaccurate. At this stage with the Super C's leaving the shipyard by next year (2008) and the expected delivery of the North Ex by 2009 they must be pretty close to the final specifications of the ship by now.

[WettCoast]

pnwtraveler said:

I find it a bit curious regarding the estimates of the number of staterooms on the Northern Expedition. The QoftN had 90 staterooms with berths for 210 people. Albeit some of those were below the waterline on the Tween deck below the car deck and above the engineering spaces along with some of the crew quarters. Since the QoftN sinking I don't think they will position staterooms and certainly not crew quarters below the waterline anymore. The presentation if accurate lists the number of staterooms on the North-Ex to be 55 two berth cabins. The North Ex will be 25 metres longers and 4.7 metres wider than the QoftN. (QoftN 125x19.3x4 and North Ex 150x24x5) So it will be a fair bit bigger than the QoftN. It is also a boxier design as shown so far and the trend in shipbuilding is maximizing superstructure over the hull. Why so few staterooms with the anticipated additional traffic the Olympics will bring etc.? The North Ex 130 automobile equivalents is fewer than the original QoftN specs but more than the final specs after the safety doors. One would expect engineers to get it right. On the peak periods I sailed on the QoftN the staterooms seemed very full. Mind you I was never on the Tween deck. Maybe the number is inaccurate. At this stage with the Super C's leaving the shipyard by next year (2008) and the expected delivery of the North Ex by 2009 they must be pretty close to the final specifications of the ship by now.

The state room numbers for the QotN would include the cabins on the boat deck as well as 'the Tween Deck'. Those cabins have not been used for passenger accommodation since the Eastonia accident. So saying that the QotN had 90 cabins for up to 210 persons is a little misleading. There was, BTW, 4-berth cabins on the Tween deck. Tween deck cabins continued in use for crew accommodation right up until the 22 March 2006.

In the summer, the new ship, like its predecessor, will be a 'day boat'. As such having 55 cabins accommodating 110 persons is probably enough. Will this ship be used for overnight service in the fall - winter - spring period though?

The Norex is to have an auto capacity of 130 which I agree is low. It suggests to me that the entire car deck will be for over heights - meaning no ramps.

The combined auto capacity of the new north coast vessels will be 101 (Norad), 130 (NorEx) plus ~60 (NorDisc) for a total of 291. This compares with QotN (115 or 157), QPR (80) & QoChw (115) for a total of 310 with the old vessels. It is interesting that BCFS's will actually be providing reduced capacity as we go forward!

As for the Olympics - they take place over two weeks in February. They may increase traffic on the main south coast routes, but I doubt that they will lead to any increase at all on the north coast routes. They might help to bring additional traffic during summers following the Games. But then again, how many people do you know who have visited Utah as a result of the Games there?

[Northern Exploration]

Thanks for the info on the Tween deck cabins. My first trip they were in use and never noticed afterward that they weren't. I always asked for a particular boat deck cabin where the view was not blocked. Kind of dumb cause I was never in the room but it felt less claustrophobic somehow hehe.

My comment on the Olympics wasn't clear enough. I was thinking more for the period after especially the summer. I agree that in Feburary it is not likely to be a huge draw. Although some Europeans are pretty adventurous and may take advantage of the time of tthe Olympics to make the trip. After a big event there is usually a bump in interest/tourism resulting from all the coverage and media attention.