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Post by NMcKay on May 23, 2007 14:59:16 GMT -8
they were given to FRMT when the MOTH MD was transferred to translink control
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 23, 2007 15:12:01 GMT -8
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Post by landlocked on May 23, 2007 16:55:05 GMT -8
So everyone is just now finding out about the Cap and Cumberland. Everyone thought the Pacificats were bad, these are just as bad and always have been. The ships have the only right angle drives in the WORLD with rads and cp wheels. BY DESIGN. They burn six times the fuel of the ship they replaced and have a crew double of a larger ship, the Skeena Queen. They were a bad design when built and remain today. Now, will the fine folks of Bowen Island be prepared to run on a vessel that more suits the fare they're prepared to pay? Absolutely not. They want a Cadillac but pay Chevrolet prices. Sorry folks, aint' gonna happen.
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Post by Hardy on May 23, 2007 17:34:51 GMT -8
I can't see BC Ferries ever paying to have two crews on the 20 minute Bowen run, let alone the cost of running two ferries and the congestion that would cause. The only way Bowen will ever be served by two boats is if one of them is a pax only vessel running to downtown. And even that would be Translink and not BC Ferries. Not necessarily. Now that BCFS is a private (nudge, wink) company, I do not see why they would not pursue such an endeavor, if they thought that they could make a profit on it. I could see a use for the two "retired" vessels after the bridge is built to replace them ... however, practicality might be another issue. Again, it would depend on the how and the where more than anything else. And of course, BOTTOM LINE. Could their use be profitable somehow, or just another subsidy-sucking route/boat?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 23, 2007 18:37:27 GMT -8
Now, will the fine folks of Bowen Island be prepared to run on a vessel that more suits the fare they're prepared to pay? Absolutely not. They want a Cadillac but pay Chevrolet prices. Sorry folks, aint' gonna happen. Here's a comparison of what Bowen Islanders pay for ferry service, compared to similar (or a bit longer) runs. Cost is car and driver; pre-paid commuter booklets reflect similar comparisons. All fares are return. Bowen: 29.50 Alert Bay/Sointula: 25.15 (considerably longer run) Thetis: 23.30 Gabriola 23.30 Texada 23.30 Moresby 20.80 Another comparison is cost per minute travelled. Bowen Islanders (again, car and driver) pay 74 cents; route 30 riders, for instance, pay 41 cents. As well, Bowen Islanders put up with a currently unreliable boat, and chronic overloads at peak periods, not to mention historically insufficient passenger facilities at very busy Snug Cove. I'm a bit mystified as to how this all adds up to a "Cadillac... at Chevrolet prices". BC Ferries and the travails of the 'Capilano are certainly fair game, but I think it's a bit unfair to dump on residents of coastal islands that have been nailed with large, regular fair hikes because of the political slant of the Coastal Ferries Act.
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Post by EGfleet on May 24, 2007 5:08:56 GMT -8
So everyone is just now finding out about the Cap and Cumberland. Everyone thought the Pacificats were bad, these are just as bad and always have been. The ships have the only right angle drives in the WORLD with rads and cp wheels. BY DESIGN. They burn six times the fuel of the ship they replaced and have a crew double of a larger ship, the Skeena Queen. They were a bad design when built and remain today. Now, will the fine folks of Bowen Island be prepared to run on a vessel that more suits the fare they're prepared to pay? Absolutely not. They want a Cadillac but pay Chevrolet prices. Sorry folks, aint' gonna happen. *shiver* Yikes, what a moment of deja vu! This is nearly exactly the same thing the head of the DOT said about the Issaquah class back when they made their first memorable appearance in the early 1980's. Of course in our case we didn't get Cheverolets, we got Edsels, but heck, after being completely rebuilt in the early 1990's the Issys have turned out to be pretty good boats.
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Post by Barnacle on May 24, 2007 6:57:05 GMT -8
*shiver* Yikes, what a moment of deja vu! This is nearly exactly the same thing the head of the DOT said about the Issaquah class back when they made their first memorable appearance in the early 1980's. Of course in our case we didn't get Cheverolets, we got Edsels, but heck, after being completely rebuilt in the early 1990's the Issys have turned out to be pretty good boats. ...eventually. ;D Though the CPP wheels still have limitations that I don't particularly care for, like responsiveness (though that could be a control system issue as well).
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Post by landlocked on May 24, 2007 7:25:31 GMT -8
Back in the good ol days BCFS used to come out with detailed route reports which showed the amount of subsidy required per pax. It was a very useful excercise, which hopefully gave the consumer a better insight into how much their travel was being underwritten by the taxpayer over and above their fares.
In about 1998 Vanship quoted about $11M to build a Quinsam clone. Add a few tons of steel and let's say you're at $12M with a capacity of about the same as the Cap. You have a very simple boat with about a 7 person crew, with four 7-800Hp cats or detroits. Simple boat.
As I understand, the Cap and Cumberland, with their 4 radars, upper lounges, cp rads, and diesel electric systems cost in the order of $22m in 1991/92. They don't carry any more cars than an 85 car version of the Quinsam, but burn about 5 times the amount of fuel and require 5 more crew, partially due to the systems on board and the increased difficulty in evacuating the passengers from the upper decks. When the Century class or any variation of it was pitched to the Bowen Islanders they absolutely refused to accept the notion that they couldn't have their upper lounges and computer stations and on and on...
The end of the day gave birth the the 'intermediate class' vessel at a cost of $53 million isn't it???
The folks on the islands need reliable service no doubt, but at what cost?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 24, 2007 17:10:31 GMT -8
Back in the good ol days BCFS used to come out with detailed route reports which showed the amount of subsidy required per pax. It was a very useful excercise, which hopefully gave the consumer a better insight into how much their travel was being underwritten by the taxpayer over and above their fares. . When the Century class or any variation of it was pitched to the Bowen Islanders they absolutely refused to accept the notion that they couldn't have their upper lounges and computer stations and on and on... Kevin Falcon has a nice little form letter, which I'm sure he'd be happy to share with you, in which he points out to ungrateful islanders just how much their services are subsidized, compared to those folks who have the good sense (not to mention the community spirit), to live in areas that the government can connect by road. Of course, he doesn't mention that those folks don't have to pay a $50 toll (regular fare) every time they travel four miles (round trip) into town, like Hornby residents do, but hey... why sweat the small stuff.... Islands Trust folks and ferry liaison committee members are very aware that islanders have very little opportunity to "absolutely refuse to accept" any vessel that BC Ferries chooses to use on their route. Bowen Islanders aren't to blame for whatever design or operating problems the 'Capilano might have. At this point, they would probably gladly exchange the 'cadillac service' perks of coffee and muffins for a big enough boat that always left on time.
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Post by NMcKay on May 24, 2007 17:52:24 GMT -8
what would be the problem with giving th Cap platform decks, and moving to the skeena queen route?
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 24, 2007 17:59:37 GMT -8
I guess that the Bowen Islanders weren't willing to accept the "notion" that they might not get a ship with certain passenger amenities.....but yes, BCFS will still do whatever they want, regardless of a lack of residential-blessing on their corporate decision.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 24, 2007 18:34:28 GMT -8
For the sake of argument, (not that arguing is something that appeals to moi ) why should customers on the smaller island routes have to accept substandard facilities, just because of where they live? If I get on the 319 bus to Scott Road Station, I'll be travelling on a modern, fairly presentably appointed coach with seating that sometimes could almost be called plush. On the Kahloke to Hornby, the car deck 'lounge' is a horrid little corridor with hard plastic benches, with the general decor being of the broom closet genre. The same is true of all the barge ferries, and the new Kuper is just as ugly, but newer. I will grant you that the scenery in Lambert Channel is marginally more pleasant than that alongside Scott Road, but BC Ferries can't take credit for that. And... my ferry fare pays for a higher percentage of the trip's operating cost than does my bus fare. Fair?
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Post by Political Incorrectness on May 24, 2007 19:07:02 GMT -8
There should be a universalized pricing scheme by region instead of by Island. What I also wonder is did Islanders taxes along with mainlanders taxes back in the days of BCFC pay for a good chunk of the operating cost?
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Post by Hardy on May 24, 2007 19:23:18 GMT -8
If I get on the 319 bus to Scott Road Station, I'll be travelling on a modern, fairly presentably appointed coach with seating that sometimes could almost be called plush. 319's have SEATS?!?! Every single one that I get on during AM or PM peak doesn't! I thought that seats are just things that are talked about?! And how many times have I had "a one sailing wait" north of 90th Ave when headed north? Many times I walk up to 96 just so I can catch a 312 or 391 to get to work on time. Funny that you chose 319 to compare things to, as this is another overcrowded route that sees no relief from Translink. Oh well, enough of my off topic rant....
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Post by landlocked on May 25, 2007 7:51:13 GMT -8
Horn, I couldn't agree with you more concerning the fact that bus travel has been made far more pleasant once Translink found out that giving the customer some amenities would promote ridership and lure new customers. The B-line buses in particular with their comfortable seats and air conditioning have proven that you can attract customers to public transportation. I agree also that the K-class and their big sisters were absolutely spartan in creature comforts, but, with a little imagination and slightly higher dollars, those passenger areas could be improved significantly.
What I am saying is look at Gabriola as an example. If one were to consider life cycle and operating costs of ferry vs bridge, why wouldn't one consider that? After all, the islanders are the first to suggest that the ferries are an extension of the road system. Or how about moving the Gabriola terminal to Duke point like what was suggested a number of years ago. The islanders wouldn't have any part of either idea. Ok, so how about BCFS selling the islanders the Quinsam and letting the islanders run it and be done with subsidizing the route?
The Cap and Cumberland are so overbuilt, over engineered, and operate with a significantly larger crew than they should. The problems they see today are directly attributed to the Corp that designed them! The wasteful fuel burn, and the additional operating costs are their responsibility alone. In my mind, the Skeena has the most efficient hull in the fleet, the simplest life saving equipment (also fitted at Albion and all MOTH inland fleet), while the Quinsam and Quinitsa have the simplest drive systems.
If you have a simple and efficient layout such as the Quinsam or Quinitsa, why would you not want to simply modernize it? An attempt was made to do that on the Skeena, but it hasn't worked out as well as it could have. Two engine rooms down below at either end would have been a much better solution than the existing, no doubt.
In short, what I have been trying to say is build it simple, comfortable and reliable. No need for frills and the huge expense. Take two examples of new boats, the new boat at Francois Lake and the Kuper. Nuff said.
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Post by hergfest on May 25, 2007 12:51:54 GMT -8
Does anyone here actually have the fuel charts on how much the Cap and Cumbie burn fuel vs say the Quinsam?
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Post by kylefossett on May 26, 2007 10:51:48 GMT -8
with translink i agree that yes your bus fare is not covering as much of the cost to run the bus as a ferry fare is but what about all those people that drive cars and need to fuel them and are paying the translink tax on the purchase of the fuel. that is were most of the operating funds are coming from
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Post by Retrovision on Jun 19, 2007 8:36:24 GMT -8
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Post by Queen of Nanaimo Teen on Jun 19, 2007 15:04:40 GMT -8
So they actually kept the dogwood carpet?! Wahoo! You would think that BC Ferries would be vain enough to get rid of it, but apparently not......
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 19, 2007 17:16:02 GMT -8
That picture of the Cappie's post-refit interior lounge looks very similar to the pre-refit Cumberland lounge that I was in, last week.
Perhaps the carpets are cleaner on the Cappie, post-refit ?
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Post by Ferryman on Jun 19, 2007 21:27:21 GMT -8
I swear the news release stated that there would be new carpets installed......Unless BCFS is getting rid of whatever leftover Dogwood carpet that they have stored at Deas?
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Post by Retrovision on Jun 19, 2007 21:34:04 GMT -8
according to refit news they are new carpets, as the Cumberland's from Scottland, but of course the quality view through those so non-opaque windows distracts from the gleaming new carpets
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Post by Dane on Jun 20, 2007 9:52:22 GMT -8
I have no idea why I remember this, but the Cumberland got new carpets roughly (very roughly) a year ago. Someone posted that was the last supply of dogwood carpet, I guess that wasn't the case or it's not new carpet?
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Neil
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Posts: 7,150
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Post by Neil on Jul 1, 2007 21:35:37 GMT -8
If people check the crossing times summaries, you'll see that the 'Capilano is now regularly doing the Bowen route in 16-18 minutes. So, at least the concerns about the boat being too slow after it's refit have been taken care of.
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Post by Retrovision on Jul 1, 2007 22:35:03 GMT -8
I, for one, am quite appreciative of the choice to not go ' coastal' on the carpets of the Queen of Capilano
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