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Post by ferryking on Sept 11, 2007 13:03:00 GMT -8
For Immediate Release 07-059 September 11, 2007 NOTICE OF ANNUAL MEETINGS B.C. Ferry Authority and British Columbia Ferry Services Inc. VICTORIA – BC Ferries will hold the Annual General Meeting of the B.C. Ferry Authority and the Annual Public Meeting of British Columbia Ferry Services Inc. on Thursday, September 13, 2007. The meetings will start at 4 p.m. and will include an introduction by the Chair of the Board, as well as presentations by the President & CEO, and the Executive Vice President of Finance & CFO, of BC Ferries. The public is invited to attend the annual meetings and an opportunity will be provided to ask questions and express views.
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See you all at the meeting...just kidding...but it sounds like there will be a presentation of some sort...i wonder if there will be new info or a rehash of items that the forum has already been discussing.
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Post by yvr on Sept 11, 2007 13:25:52 GMT -8
I wonder what the spin doctors will crank out this afternoon. Some actual accountability would be nice.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Sept 11, 2007 14:31:42 GMT -8
Considering that you're a guy who can find a looming scandal in the propellers on the new Coastals, I doubt that you'd accept 'accountability' from BC Ferries even if the figures were blessed by Christ Himself.
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Post by hwy19man on Sept 11, 2007 14:51:48 GMT -8
I wonder what the spin doctors will crank out this afternoon. Some actual accountability would be nice. Right on! Come on out and complain everyone.
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Kam
Voyager
Posts: 926
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Post by Kam on Sept 11, 2007 17:02:23 GMT -8
Considering that you're a guy who can find a looming scandal in the propellers on the new Coastals, I doubt that you'd accept 'accountability' from BC Ferries even if the figures were blessed by Christ Himself. lol.. I seccond that
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Post by Mac Write on Sept 11, 2007 19:16:23 GMT -8
Where's the location of the meeting and how "transit" friendly is the location. Graheme you going?
Edit: scratch that. Just read it's in Powell River. If someone else is driving, can I go with you (from either Vancouver or the Island)?
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Post by kylefossett on Sept 11, 2007 19:39:01 GMT -8
Where's the location of the meeting and how "transit" friendly is the location. Graheme you going? Edit: scratch that. Just read it's in Powell River. If someone else is driving, can I go with you (from either Vancouver or the Island)? Mac, I am not going but there is a bus from the main terminal in Vancouver that goes to Powell River. Same idea as the PCL on route 1. not sure frequency or anything like that but something to look into.
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Post by yvr on Sept 12, 2007 16:56:23 GMT -8
The annual report has not been posted yet, so I thought I would add a couple of items that hopefully will be covered.
1. The Sonia, with all her problems, including an additional refit - how much are BCF - and you and I the taxpayer over the stated $103 million budget?
2. Solas (Safety of Life at Sea) is the highest safety standard a vessel can comply with. Yet I can find no evidence that the new Coastal class ferries will be in compliance. What is the reason? Will vessel insurance cost more because they will not be in compliance?
3. When is the TSB report into the sinking of the Queen of the North going to be released? it appears BCF have a lot of influence over the TSB in this situation. Was the recovered chart hard disk evaluated by a third party? Will an independent report be issued regarding that disk?
4. What is the status of the insurance claim for the QON? Supposedly $67.9 million came to BCF. My question is, how does a ferry that's worth $4-6 million suddenly become worth 12 times more? Is there proof that 67.9 mil was actually received!
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 12, 2007 17:15:42 GMT -8
4. What is the status of the insurance claim for the QON? Supposedly $67.9 million came to BCF. My question is, how does a ferry that's worth $4-6 million suddenly become worth 12 times more? Is there proof that 67.9 mil was actually received! re whether there is proof that the 67.9 mil was actually received: - the 2007 audited financial statements refer to this item, in Note #13 to the financial statements. It refers to the 67.9 mil as "received insurance proceeds". Because it says "received" and not "receivable", this indicates that it was collected by BCFS before 3/31/2007. This note is on the 2006/07 annual report doc, on page #77 of the report. The report can be found at: www.bcferries.com/files/PDFs/BCFS_AR_0607.pdfThese financial statements, including this Note #13, were audited by KPMG, audit completed in May 07. Does the KPMG auditors report satisfy your query? -------------------------- YVR: In responding to your various posts, it would be helpful for me (and maybe others) if you'd comment sometime to introduce yourself and explain your degree of skepticism. ie. then we'll know when one of your questions is "unsatisfiable" or "satisfiable"...and we won't waste our time responding to something that was merely meant as rhetoric. The "new members" thread would be a great place for you to tell us a bit about yourself, and how you generally see things. If you have some pervasive biases or mindsets about issues such as "Accountability", why wouldn't you want to clearly explain these to the forum, so that we can better understand the intent of your posts? I'm serious: That new members' thread is here: ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=rrr&action=display&thread=1136690463&page=10If you desire some meaningful discussion from your posts, you probably should take the time to explain who you are and why you're interested in certain things. In the absence of this, I'm likely to start ignoring your posts, as I find a hard time discerning between what might be real questions and what might just be politics or rhetoric. Yours in clear communication, Flugel Horn.
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Post by yvr on Sept 13, 2007 10:03:33 GMT -8
I posted 4 very serious questions regarding BC Ferries. You took issue with one of them. Then followed up with a grand tirade regarding where am I coming from.
Firstly lets look at the question of BCF receiving insurance monies.
Have you ever been able to grossly over insure an item to the tune of 12 to 15 times it's worth? Think about your personal vehicle, or your home? Would your insurance company let you over insure to the amounts stated above? Not likely! Now lets look at what BCF, and auditors claim was a payout. Not more than 60 days after the sinking BCF claim they were paid out. Have any members ever received such a quick payout for such a complex case? Especially since we are still awaiting the official report into the sinking. To use one of your terms -yes I'm skeptical.
You make no mention of my other points - the Sonia, SOLAS, or the TSB.
This forum is primarily aimed at ferry fans. However there is more to life than looking at, riding on, or saying ferries are neat. To me having oversight of the vast inefficiencies of a corporation like BCF is very valuable. The ferry commissioner is supposed to stay on top of them. However we hear very little from him. Then we have the NDP ferry critic, I invited him to this site, and he posted perhaps twice. Other than that, when was the last time the members heard from him? Let's look at the press. The Vancouver Province has a female reporter who has BCF's pulse. The annual meeting today means it's a big news day, thus theoretically she should have a large article in tomorrow mornings paper. I Have not seen any of her articles recently, and it appears she has been stifled. Then it comes down to the forum, yes I ask pointed questions, because I wish not only you the members, but the mgmt of BCF to think about the inefficiencies, and poor corporate decisions that are made.
Instead of chastising this member, perhaps you should be thanking me for attempting to keep BCF decisions in the open. BCF's annual subsidy is paid by both you and I. If a posting on this site by any member reduces that subsidy it's worth great praise from the citizens of British Columbia.
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Post by ferryking on Sept 13, 2007 10:27:36 GMT -8
1. The Sonia, with all her problems, including an additional refit - how much are BCF - and you and I the taxpayer over the stated $103 million budget? 2. Solas (Safety of Life at Sea) is the highest safety standard a vessel can comply with. Yet I can find no evidence that the new Coastal class ferries will be in compliance. What is the reason? Will vessel insurance cost more because they will not be in compliance? 3. When is the TSB report into the sinking of the Queen of the North going to be released? it appears BCF have a lot of influence over the TSB in this situation. Was the recovered chart hard disk evaluated by a third party? Will an independent report be issued regarding that disk? 4. What is the status of the insurance claim for the QON? Supposedly $67.9 million came to BCF. My question is, how does a ferry that's worth $4-6 million suddenly become worth 12 times more? Is there proof that 67.9 mil was actually received! YVR while your points or concerns may be valid...here are some things to consider. item 1 - budgets are made to calculate foreseeable costs and sometimes cyb (cover your butt) money...have all issues with the norad been foreseeable maybe...maybe not. buyer beware...this ship was built in 2004(i believe) and sold in 2006...so not everything about her may have been perfect to start...when replacing a ship in emergency your choices also end up being limited. item 2 - what does your research of evidence entail... item 3 - politics...whether in business or government or law or whatever they will always exist item 4 - there is such a thing as insurance that covers the cost of replacement (i am sure its not cheap) what would be the point of insuring (replacement wise) a 4-6 million dollar vessel if the replacement cost was well above that...12 times for instance. this isn't intended to be pointed...just looking for clarification of your points...and i think this was Flugel Horn's point too. thanks
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Post by yvr on Sept 13, 2007 10:49:39 GMT -8
To answer the only question - re SOLAS. Pls see Coastal Renaisance page 22 posting 535. Then look under Classification - no SOLAS visible.
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Post by ferryking on Sept 13, 2007 11:20:20 GMT -8
YVR...to reply to your sacastic one sentence reply...i would think that they've built the coastals with Solas in mind...Transport Canada probably would not certify them for service without it...as some vessels will be retired because of lack of this status (save for any grandfathering situations)
also while FSG's website is very informative...the pdf in question is more for the purpose of advertising that they build this particular ship...while it does indicate the following 'ABS +A1, Vehicle Passenger Ferry, Strait of Georgia Service, +AMS, COMF+, HAB, ES, (E)... could it be that one of these items might indicate Solas, if so please let me know...also, i am sure that other ferry operators in other countries could careless if these vessels meets Canadian Solas requirements.
thanks again.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Sept 13, 2007 11:31:42 GMT -8
yvr: Your posts, or anybody else's posts on this forum, have absolutely no effect on the subsidy BC Ferries gets. Don't flatter yourself.
1. The sum given for the purchase project is done. Any further work is discretionary, and will not be a part of that sum.
2. It's up to you to prove that the ferries are in any way deficient in safety standards, or that there is any negative effect on insurance rates.
3. BCFS obviously has no influence over the TSB- if they did, there wouldn't be a conflict over the TSB refusing to hand over the hard drive for BCFS to publicize before the report's release.
4. Obviously, the insurance payout covers replacement cost. Perhaps if you let David Hahn know of your skepticism, he'll show you the cancelled cheque.
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Post by Dane on Sept 13, 2007 11:40:58 GMT -8
Have you ever been able to grossly over insure an item to the tune of 12 to 15 times it's worth? BCFS has underwritten the value of the fleet twice since they took possession, FYI. This information is readily available in their past annual reports, and is also declared at their AGM. While I am not an accountant I doubt theyll do anymore this year, as most of the older ships were pinned at no resale value already.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Sept 13, 2007 16:00:44 GMT -8
Businesses write off equipment at fairly usual rates. Some items write off pretty quickly. Other items actually appreciate in value and the business doesn't realize this usually until the item is disposed of. This is a tax issue more than anything else. Cars can depreciate as soon as you drive them off the lot. A used car depreciates very little, a new car a lot.
This is a very different issue than insurance. I have replacement insurance on my car. That means if I crash tomorrow and it is worth $30,000 on the marketplace (same age, same mileage, same options) and a new one costs $43,000. I get a cheque for the latter. I also get a rental car, and other minor damages.
However it gets more complicated with a business. If I have a fire and all my equipment, some files and other items are destroyed, my business will be impacted by more than just replacing the furniture and computers. There will be the loss of the files and the time that the business is no longer operating. You can get policies to cover all this. The point is how much insurance are you willing to cover and pay for to balance the risk you may face without it. After all Mary Hart of Entertainment Tonight at one point insured her legs for $1,000,000. You can almost insure anything if you have enough money and need to.
I am not party to BCFerries Insurance plans and all they entail. The true replacement cost of the QoftN should have been closer to the costs of the NorEx so should have been over $100 million dollars. So they must have had a policy which covered less than a brand new vessel, more like what a used vessel in similar shape costs but loss of business plus whatever other liabilities and policies they had in place. Since few accidents have ever happened on BCFerries and no ship had gone down like the QoftN I am sure there were people who questioned how much money was being spent on insurance. I am sure likewise that there are people who say they should have had total replacement coverage.
There undoubted are other insurance policies which may come into play under separate policies. For example liability insurance for lawsuits. There could be caps on the amounts that will be covered. There may not be. So if any of the pending lawsuits are successful BCFerries and their insurance companies would have to deal with that.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Sept 13, 2007 16:11:38 GMT -8
Mr. Horn, perhaps you may want to get involved with a British intelligence agency. I am sure you could track him down.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 13, 2007 16:15:14 GMT -8
Mr. Horn, perhaps you may want to get involved with a British intelligence agency. I am sure you could track him down. Dan is referring to a post I briefly made, then deleted, as on second-glance it was too much directed at forum members, and not really focused on any discussion. I decided not to play the troll-game. (But I did refer to an invisible, lurking Londoner.............and I did say " Boo !" because that's scary..;D).
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Post by Curtis on Sept 13, 2007 20:13:45 GMT -8
Okay, I got back from the AGM In Powell River awhile ago. And I must say the absolute first person I saw was Hahn Himself. Here were the Highlights... Elizabeth Harrison was Up First with the Chair's Presentation. Which overall wasn't too exciting. David Hahn was up Next with the President's Report. Here were a few Things He Touched on that will be of good interest. -The first is for Major Upgrades, Apparently The Cost of the Queen of New Westminster's Refit will be 46 Million. -The Quinitsa as most of us Already Know will be receiving an Upgrade originally expected last year. -The Howe Sound Queen is Next in the Series of Ships to Receive a Major Upgrade, What this upgrade will be for is unknown, It could easily be similar to the Capilano's engine Upgrade Earlier this year. -On a Minor Note the Total Amount Spent on the Queen of Burnaby's Refit, Around 3 Million, Well Spent According to Hahn. -The Northern Adventure Defiantly has more upgrading coming in the next two years to be more suited for the Northern Service, These changes will probably include flooring escalators and such, nothing about a Bow Door though. -Other things he covered were the Newbuilds, He Alternated between Super "C" Class and Coastal Class, He didn't mention much about the New "I" Vessel but he did mention the NorEx Steel Cut was the other day and the Northern Discovery (Nothing new Here) is expected for 2011 and still undecided about new or used. -The Queens of Tsawwassen and Esquimalt are indeed on their way to Turkey, Not to be scrapped Soon and the Vancouver and Saanich are staying for possible overnight service. Rob Clarke's Presentation on the Financial Report Turned out that he had last years report so he had to wing it. During the Question Period, The public got up asking various things to [David] Hahn, [Elizabeth] Harrison, and [Rob] Clarke such as... -On time performances of Route 7 and 17 -That problem of being the 1st to the Terminal and Last off the Ferry -The Various Advertising and Sponsoring BCFS has done from ads for Casinos in their brochures to supporting the local hockey team. -And Much Much More such as the Powell River Raging Grannies, they sang a protest song, Hahn said he wanted the lyrics. (lol)
As a Final Note an "A Channel Camera" Crew was at The AGM as well I think the Local Shaw TV crew was probably there So you might want to watch or tape the "A Channel" News.
And with that, I'm Out!
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Post by Balfour on Sept 13, 2007 20:22:49 GMT -8
Thank you for that Curtis.
Some Questions:
If 2 of the V's are staying after all, Could they be staying around to help with the Olympics or is David Hahn actually looking at starting a new service with them?
What are they doing to the New West that will $46 million?
Just some things to speculate on...
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Post by Mac Write on Sept 13, 2007 20:27:27 GMT -8
What exactly will the Esquimalt and Tsawwassen be used for in Turkey? Seems they are side stepping the issue maybe being sold to someone else who will then sell it to someone else to scrap?
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 13, 2007 21:00:34 GMT -8
Is it normal practice for BCFS's to give the public 2 days notice of their AGM, and tell them, 'oh, by the way, its in Powell River'?
It would seem reasonable to me that several months notice should be given for such an event.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Sept 13, 2007 21:19:17 GMT -8
"Very nice report, Curtis." (I had to do that. I'm trying to bump up my post count.) Seriously, thanks for the report. Two years in a row now, Hahn's mentioned the Vs hanging around for night service, so I guess we can assume it's really going to happen. If so, it will represent the first real expansion in south coast service in many years. Bring on those drop trailers. Watch out, Seaspan. So, the 'New Westminster gets another 46 mil. Added to the 50 or so she had years ago, that could have bought us a new boat, nearly. Still, it's nice to think one of the old original-majors will be around for many more years. She'll be the Grand Old Lady of the fleet. We're pretty lucky as ferry fans. For the forseeable future, on the four major routes, we'll have a fair bit of variety. One V, the Coastals, Spirits, regular Cs, and the 'Alberni.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Sept 13, 2007 21:39:43 GMT -8
The Howe Sound queen is getting a passenger lounge upgrade. the current lounge is going to be completely ripped out and new everything going in. drop ceilings (no more exposed pipes and wires), new bulkheads, new bathrooms and unfortunately, they are taking out the old wooden benches.
The lower decks (engine room and maid deck) had their upgrade last spring but the passenger areas were skipped to rush her back in service.
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Post by Curtis on Sept 13, 2007 21:55:01 GMT -8
I can't exactly remember everything but I believe this is how it went. On the Topic of the Retiring Originals... According to Hahn, BCFS doesn't want them to send a ship to somewere such as Pakistan (He did say Pakistan) Beach it and break it up, They'd Rather Take them apart piece by piece, They would make money but it would finish a perfectly good ship. They'd like to continue to use their ships for other purposes. Apparantly the Tsawwassen and Esquimalt going to Turkey the Company running them might have something to do with Canada. At the current moment BC Ferries doesn't know exactly what to do with the Vancouver and Saanich, They could be relief Vessels, They Could Be Freight Service, they could be for Overnight Service, alot of things.
Response to the New West Question... Considering the fact she was lifted and recieved a new Hull in the early 90s, so the New West has quite a few more years on her, the Queen of New Westminster is getting it's own "C" Class-ish like refit, this according to Hahn is the last Major Upgrade on a Major Route Ferry for Awhile, After this Refit since the Coastal Inspiration is taking her spot on Tsawwassen-Duke Point, she will most likely be placed on the Tsawwassen-Swartz Bay Route alongside the Coastal Celebration, She'll be placed out of Tsawwassen While the CC is placed out of Swartz Bay, That'll Be a Site Old Generation and New Generation Passing in Active Pass.
P.S. I've noticed lately some members are criticising that BCFS is saying the Current NewBuild Program is the Largest the company has had and saying What about 1960-66. Might I point out that 1. BC Ferries was Fairly New Back Then and Needed New Modern Ships to Run their Many Routes. And 2. You Ever Notice they Say it's the Largest Ship Replacement Program in the Company's History.
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