Vancouver Sun, Sept 15 2007: fares, ship-breaking

[Mill Bay]

O.k.

I guess I created too much controversy with this one.

I was also looking into the Irish ferries, and it does appear that for one person in an underheight car, the cost of going from Dublin to Holyhead one way costs just about double compared to TSA to Victoria if not more for about a 3-4 hour crossing. It also sounded like you could reserve yourself a specific seat or a room onboard, but it would be additional to the fare of passage.

One benefit... they do serve Irish Stout on board Irish Ferries..

[Scott]

Back to one of the original items in this thread - fare hikes. Last week I heard Kevin Falcon telling us why we need ferry fare hikes... because for years the NDP neglected BC Ferries and didn't do enough or spend enough money building up the fleet. My question is - what has he done or what have the Liberals done? They've privatized BC Ferries and set a certain amount that the government will subsidize (a relatively decreasing amount compared to the rise in fares). So in my opinion, Mr. Falcon and his government has done less than the previous government to build up the fleet. They've "merely" (or not so merely) increased the burden on the ferry user to finance it. Yet there he is in Germany, still taking credit for it.

[Balfour]

Essentially the services on the boats and more has been done to improve the fleet thanks to the quasi-privatization of BCF and so the Government does do less, but I believe that Government and Business don't mix and an example of that is the Fastcat Program, where Glen Clark started up CFI to build the Pacificats. The ferries were a year late and over budget by a lot.

Fare increases are a burden on the ferry travellers, but we have to keep in mind that it is the only way to pay for all the new ferries being built. Money does not grow on trees.

Yes the Government is doing less to the Ferry Fleet but more is being done to it thanks to a management with a business background.

[Scott]

Yeah, I agree that there should be some separation between government and running the business. It was mismanaged by the NDP and other governments as well. The Fastcat program is an example of bad government decisions in the management of the fleet. But it's also an example of a government (however badly it was done) spending tax-payers money on upgrading the fleet and attempting to improve service on our maritime highway. The current government is no longer funding upgrades or improvements to service. They've formed a front (a privatized BC Ferries) to turn BC Ferries into a user-pay service so they can spend the money elsewhere or make tax cuts to win elections.

The current government has not only stopped funding for improvements (which they had always done before), they've refused to increase their subsidies at all, not even at the rate that fares are going up. So everything, from the cost of new ferries and improvements, the higher cost of fuel, and inflation is being borne by the ferry users alone. So I would conclude that the Liberal's have done nothing but create an organization to build new ferries and improve terminals and customer service at the expense of the travelling public.

I don't view it much differently than if the government were to force all car users to pay the majority of the cost for all new bridges, all new paving, all new highway expansions, and all repairs to existing infrastructure. Governments are more than happy to provide most of the funding for convention centers, highway expansions, and new rapid transit lines for their Olympic friends. Forget the few seats in Victoria that usually vote NDP anyways.

[Queen of Nanaimo Teen]

Excellent statement John! I completely agree and I don't think we should really blame the government for the whole fiasco. They wanted to serve the people better, it was for a good cause. Unfortunately, it didn't work out which lead to the downfall of the NDP government.

[Balfour]

If anything, the Spirits are an example of the old system at it's best.

The current system could be better if we saw more funding from the government, but will it happen? We don't know. Maybe if BC becomes Debt free in the coming years it will.

[Political Incorrectness]

admin said:

Yeah, I agree that there should be some separation between government and running the business. It was mismanaged by the NDP and other governments as well. The Fastcat program is an example of bad government decisions in the management of the fleet. But it's also an example of a government (however badly it was done) spending tax-payers money on upgrading the fleet and attempting to improve service on our maritime highway. The current government is no longer funding upgrades or improvements to service. They've formed a front (a privatized BC Ferries) to turn BC Ferries into a user-pay service so they can spend the money elsewhere or make tax cuts to win elections.

The current government has not only stopped funding for improvements (which they had always done before), they've refused to increase their subsidies at all, not even at the rate that fares are going up. So everything, from the cost of new ferries and improvements, the higher cost of fuel, and inflation is being borne by the ferry users alone. So I would conclude that the Liberal's have done nothing but create an organization to build new ferries and improve terminals and customer service at the expense of the travelling public.

I don't view it much differently than if the government were to force all car users to pay the majority of the cost for all new bridges, all new paving, all new highway expansions, and all repairs to existing infrastructure. Governments are more than happy to provide most of the funding for convention centers, highway expansions, and new rapid transit lines for their Olympic friends. Forget the few seats in Victoria that usually vote NDP anyways.

John, that was all Glen Clark that ruined the NDP. That was not the party as a whole and I do not appreciate people judging a party by their head leader. What proof is there of any other NDP member being involved in the fiasco? Second off, private business and government should be separated in terms of operation, but not in accountability. A great example is Blackwater which is now being highly scrutinized by even the sensational media.

Did the people try and stop these boats from being built? Did the people try and say no to their tax dollars going toward this? Those few NDP seats are important representing another opinion, otherwise, it would be Liberal (or should I say conservatives or SoCreds) rule completely and only one vote and one way which is not the way to go.

[Hardy]

qsandwich said:

If anything, the Spirits are an example of the old system at it's best.

The current system could be better if we saw more funding from the government, but will it happen? We don't know. Maybe if BC becomes Debt free in the coming years it will.

The only way to fix this is to stop the politicians from mucking things up -- how many of the current politicians are either (former) lawyers or (former) sales people? We need some BUSINESS persons in power (damn if only Jimmy Pattison would....)

Picture for a minute if we actually had a business person running the province as if it WERE a business? The budget would be balanced and there might be actually some planning ahead, rather than all this "4-year" thinking -- "What can I do so that I can get re-elected in 4 years?" None of them seem to commit to any long term projects that are past 4 years...

Financial responsibility and planning for the long term are things that are critical to any company, and why should a province be any different?

We can point elbows at the Liberals and at the NDP all we want, but in the end, but in the end, we, the people, still elected whomever it is that we want to blame.

Yes, the NDP had a plan (poor as it was) and did something (boondoggled as it was). The Libs have gone too far the other way and tripped over themselves trying to distance themselves and create an arms length relationship. Both are bad decisions, but which is the least bad?

Should the Libs pitch in a few more dollars or create a different funding strategy? IMHO, yes, but I am one voice. With it now spun off into a privatized operation, it is harder for the govt to subsidize. There are still financing options that can be exercised, but the funding cannot be as direct as it was in the past. And neither should BCFS be looking for a big govt handout to keep their finances in order. As a privatized operation, they should essentially stand on their own two feet, but at the same time, if they are providing a regulated and mandated service, then they should receive something in return for it. And that percentage should be linked to things such as actual costs, inflation etc -- most of the things that we are now saying are impacting the current level of subsidy. These things should be indexed and linked to make the funding formula fair and equitable for ALL involved, not just one party.

Anyways, those are my thoughts and feelings on this topic.

[Neil]

The likes of Jim Pattison.... setting policy for health care, education, and social services- because of his business acumen.

Words fail me.

[ferrytraveller]

qsandwich said:

...I believe that Government and Business don't mix and an example of that is the Fastcat Program, where Glen Clark started up CFI to build the Pacificats. The ferries were a year late and over budget by a lot.

well thats not completely true, a large portion of why the ferries were over budget and late were because firstly the ship yards had not constructed large aluminum ferries before and Most of the welders working for the ship yards had to be re-trained because welding aluminum is very different from welding steel. The whole process was a learning curve for everyone involved. The second and third ships had alot less problems that needed fixing compared to the first pacificat.

[ferrytraveller]

ferrymaniac101 said:

admin said:

Yeah, I agree that there should be some separation between government and running the business. It was mismanaged by the NDP and other governments as well. The Fastcat program is an example of bad government decisions in the management of the fleet. But it's also an example of a government (however badly it was done) spending tax-payers money on upgrading the fleet and attempting to improve service on our maritime highway. The current government is no longer funding upgrades or improvements to service. They've formed a front (a privatized BC Ferries) to turn BC Ferries into a user-pay service so they can spend the money elsewhere or make tax cuts to win elections.

The current government has not only stopped funding for improvements (which they had always done before), they've refused to increase their subsidies at all, not even at the rate that fares are going up. So everything, from the cost of new ferries and improvements, the higher cost of fuel, and inflation is being borne by the ferry users alone. So I would conclude that the Liberal's have done nothing but create an organization to build new ferries and improve terminals and customer service at the expense of the travelling public.

John, that was all Glen Clark that ruined the NDP.

well at least glen Clark had a vision for BC and through the fast ferry program he tried to revive the BC Ship Building Industry. The Liberals and the rest of canadian governments seem content on letting the industry die or fend for itself !!
Its quite sad the way things have become !

[Political Incorrectness]

That is the point I try to make but it was not very clear, they tried and failed and the BC voters are afraid of taking another chance on the NDP because of the big screw up with the large amount of money involved in the fiasco. Therefore, the question is, how do you restore trust in the NDP after there scrutinization over the fast cat fiaso.

[Mill Bay]

ferrymaniac101 said:

John, that was all Glen Clark that ruined the NDP. That was not the party as a whole and I do not appreciate people judging a party by their head leader. What proof is there of any other NDP member being involved in the fiasco? Second off, private business and government should be separated in terms of operation, but not in accountability.

Did the people try and stop these boats from being built? Did the people try and say no to their tax dollars going toward this? Those few NDP seats are important representing another opinion, otherwise, it would be Liberal (or should I say conservatives or SoCreds) rule completely and only one vote and one way which is not the way to go.

You may be right about this, but you can't blame the shipbuilder's union for being disillusioned either, because they were in effect betrayed by their own government.

There is evidence from other outside sources, that the NDP were warned at the time by various marine architects and engineering consultants that the Fastcats would likely not be feasible for service on the B.C. coast, and the government still forced them to build the ferries anyway.

The shipbuilding industry in B.C. wants to build ferries, the problem is it is the government that is condemning the industry. In point of fact, it doesn't matter which government was in power then: the one that is in power now is obligated to look out for the best interests of the public, not punish the people for the sins of previous government.

Gordon Campbell and all the MLAs are public employees... what right do they have to decide to destroy everything that we, the public, own without our consent.

Imprimis.

From:
"ORGANIZATIONAL BEHAVIOR"
by Steven L. McShane and Mary Ann Von Glinow

Chapter 11:
Pacificats: An Escalation of Commitment

In the mid-1990s, B.C. Ferries – the government company that operates the ferry system in British Columbia, Canada -- decided to design and build three catamaran-style ferries for the route between Vancouver and Nanaimo. The Premier of British Columbia – the project’s champion -- promised that these “PacifiCats” would travel faster than conventional ferries. The entire project would cost no more than $210 million “right down to the toilet paper.”

Instead, costs ballooned to nearly $500 million as the project fell more than two years behind schedule. The first two PacifiCats were plagued by so many mechanical problems that each ferry was under repair half the time. A more devastating discovery was that the PacifiCats had a massive wake that caused ecological and property damage along the shoreline. This made them unsuitable for B.C. waters.

These problems were not unforeseen. During the project’s first year, a marine engineer warned that the PacifiCats were not economically feasible and could endanger the public. Soon after, a British shipping journal reported that the ferries would cost much more to build than the original estimates. By the fifth year, the B.C. Auditor-General slammed the project, saying that the B.C. Ferries’ board of directors endorsed the project under government pressure. The board apparently raised concerns about the PacifiCats both before and many times after their decision.

Almost six years after the PacifiCat project was announced, a new Premier of British Columbia cancelled the program and put the three ferries up for sale at less than one-quarter of their cost. The former Premier, who had supported the PacifiCats until he stepped down for other reasons, was one of the few people criticizing the decision to end the project.



www.mhhe.com/business/management/updates/mcshane/newinfo/s_pacificats.mhtml