Neil
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Post by Neil on Apr 3, 2009 16:02:03 GMT -8
How about this for a sneaky, underhanded cash grab by BC Ferries.
I wrote to the BC Ferry Commission, questioning the fact that fares on the 'minor' routes seem to have risen by more than the 7.5% BC Ferries said they were.
I received a reply today, and my math wasn't off.
BC Ferries has quietly eliminated the off-season rate, and rolled the increase into the announced fare increase, hoping, apparently that no one would notice.
Not that they care a fig for what islanders might say, anyway.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Apr 4, 2009 6:10:38 GMT -8
I received a reply today, and my math wasn't off. BC Ferries has quietly eliminated the off-season rate, and rolled the increase into the announced fare increase, hoping, apparently that no one would notice. Thanks for making that effort and for sharing the reply. So it was a hidden extra detail, after all. I wonder of the figs will hit the fan now that local users will be noticing this too. Or will people even notice because the 7.25% overshadows the other 3%? I posed a question on this issue to the writer of a www.thetyee.ca article this week, to see what his take is on the issue. We'll see if this is just an issue for us here..... ;D
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Post by WettCoast on Apr 13, 2009 17:14:35 GMT -8
There is more discussion on this topic in the current edition of Island Tides. islandtides.com/assets/IslandTides.pdfSee the article entitled Minor Ferry Routes: Summer Fares Canned beginning in the lower right corner of page 1.
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Post by Dane on Apr 13, 2009 17:19:48 GMT -8
I generally really like Island Tides. It's like the Tyee, with facts.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Apr 16, 2009 9:44:01 GMT -8
BCFS has updated their service notice about the minor routes' fare increase.
They didn't explicitly say that the resulting new year-round fare is 11% higher than the old off-season fare, but at least they gave the public a few more clues.
Regarding the story in the Tyee on the 7.25% fare increase, which I commented-on, on the Tyee website, there was never any other feedback or comment on this math issue.
It's still our little secret. ;D
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on May 21, 2009 17:19:00 GMT -8
It's that time of year again... gas prices going slowly back up, so I assume ferry fares will quickly, as well. Here is an interesting opinion piece by someone who thinks there should be a multi-tiered fare system for the ferries. The idea being, let island residents travel for reduced rates and make mainlanders pay full fare to visit the islands, and make the unsuspecting tourists pay even more just for being casual visitors. Now, I know every time I comment on social political issues, i sound stupid, but try this idea. We don't exactly spell it out on every legal document, but one of the governing ideologies of our society is freedom and equality. I'm curious how this person would feel so comfortable if the situation were reversed, and they were the ones paying for someone else's free or discount service. Or how can you arbitrarily assess a greater cost-value to the same service to people simply based on geography. That sounds a little unequal... a little bit like something that shouldn't happen because we have a free and equal society. www.canada.com/Ferries+needs+tiered+system+fares/1608572/story.html
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rt1commuter
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Post by rt1commuter on May 21, 2009 20:59:08 GMT -8
BC Residents discount makes sense, but making it island specific; not a good idea. Everyone's tax dollars go to subsidize BC Ferries. What make island residents special? As for tourists, and out-of-province people - totally agree.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 21, 2009 21:19:25 GMT -8
I'm not in favor of pricing based on where users live; not because of concerns about a 'free and equal society', but simply because it doesn't ultimately resolve the issue of a fair determination of how ferry travel is priced. What we need is the program that was discussed in another thread, the 'road equivalent tariff', which has been implemented in some European countries and is being introduced in Scotland. It involves rationalizing the cost of getting somewhere by road with the cost of getting somewhere by water, without unduly penalizing ferry dependent communities. We've been over it before, but if anyone is interested, again, here's the link to the Scottish study... www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/Transport/ferries-ports-canals/14342/TARIFF
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on May 22, 2009 19:36:51 GMT -8
BC Residents discount makes sense, but making it island specific; not a good idea. Everyone's tax dollars go to subsidize BC Ferries. What make island residents special? As for tourists, and out-of-province people - totally agree. That is what I would say as well, but I just want to add the notion that some islanders seem a little egocentric by always being quick to point out their dependency on the ferries as a reason for getting a break on the fares. Looking at it rationally, though, their dependency is only a matter of degrees and there are probably just as many people who are just as, if not more dependent on the ferries for travel needs and transport services who actually live on the mainland.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 22, 2009 22:36:31 GMT -8
That is what I would say as well, but I just want to add the notion that some islanders seem a little egocentric by always being quick to point out their dependency on the ferries as a reason for getting a break on the fares. Looking at it rationally, though, their dependency is only a matter of degrees and there are probably just as many people who are just as, if not more dependent on the ferries for travel needs and transport services who actually live on the mainland. 'Egocentric'? Sorry, I don't quite get that. No one is as dependent on the ferries as the people who actually live in the communities the ferries serve, and who depend on them as the only connection to work, school, medical appointments, shopping, and whatever else. Before anything else, the ferries are there to serve those communities, and the needs of the residents should be the paramount concern, along with some reasonable attention to the cost of providing that service. How the rates are structured is another matter, but when people are paying almost as much for the four mile return ride to Hornby Island as they are on the thirty something miles of route 30, I'd say their 'egocentricity' might have some justification. (In honesty, I should point out that the 'Experience' card rate for Hornby is a fair bit below the route 30 fare. The posted rates are, however, very close.)
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on May 23, 2009 22:13:55 GMT -8
That is what I would say as well, but I just want to add the notion that some islanders seem a little egocentric by always being quick to point out their dependency on the ferries as a reason for getting a break on the fares. Looking at it rationally, though, their dependency is only a matter of degrees and there are probably just as many people who are just as, if not more dependent on the ferries for travel needs and transport services who actually live on the mainland. 'Egocentric'? Sorry, I don't quite get that. No one is as dependent on the ferries as the people who actually live in the communities the ferries serve, and who depend on them as the only connection to work, school, medical appointments, shopping, and whatever else. Before anything else, the ferries are there to serve those communities, and the needs of the residents should be the paramount concern, along with some reasonable attention to the cost of providing that service. How the rates are structured is another matter, but when people are paying almost as much for the four mile return ride to Hornby Island as they are on the thirty something miles of route 30, I'd say their 'egocentricity' might have some justification. (In honesty, I should point out that the 'Experience' card rate for Hornby is a fair bit below the route 30 fare. The posted rates are, however, very close.)Yeah... maybe geo-centric would have been a better term. Thanks for providing us with an example of the ideological thought as well. Though, in all honesty, Neil, you are not a permanent resident of one of those ferry-dependent islands, so I think that would class you as a tourist, .
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 23, 2009 23:01:19 GMT -8
Yeah... maybe geo-centric would have been a better term. Thanks for providing us with an example of the ideological thought as well. Though, in all honesty, Neil, you are not a permanent resident of one of those ferry-dependent islands, so I think that would class you as a tourist, . True, I'm not a resident, so my stake isn't the same as those who need the ferries on a daily or weekly basis. However, I do pay taxes, and I can attend ratepayers meetings and vote in elections- so I'm not quite a tourist. The high fares also keep me from visiting the island as often as I'd like, and when I'm there, I buy most of my supplies at the Co-op and patronize other island businesses, so the loss of people like myself and my family hurts the island economy.
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Post by Scott on May 23, 2009 23:46:39 GMT -8
When we talk of "island residents", we're using a pretty broad title to describe a big variety of people.
- It covers the First Nations people of Kuper Island and the Queen Charlottes, many of whom are living in poverty and none of whom "choose to live on an island". It's their ancestral land... they have every right to live there.
- It covers multi-generation residents who have been born on the islands, grown up there, and, while to a lesser extent than the First Nations, have every right to call the islands their home and not be priced out of it.
- It also includes multi-millionaires who have purchased mansions on the Pender Islands and Vancouver Island.
It's a complicated issue. Are you going to give the same discount to the mansion owner on Pender Island as you are to the unemployed Penelakut single mom on Kuper Island?
I tend to agree with Neil and the "road equivalent tariff". It at least puts the islands on a level playing field with other remote communities. It doesn't really solve the disparity between the various residents of the islands. I think maybe special consideration should be taken for the First Nations communities... as a separate issue (is there any special consideration taken currently?).
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Neil
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Post by Neil on May 24, 2009 18:53:12 GMT -8
When we talk of "island residents", we're using a pretty broad title to describe a big variety of people. - It covers the First Nations people of Kuper Island and the Queen Charlottes, many of whom are living in poverty and none of whom "choose to live on an island". It's their ancestral land... they have every right to live there. - It covers multi-generation residents who have been born on the islands, grown up there, and, while to a lesser extent than the First Nations, have every right to call the islands their home and not be priced out of it. - It also includes multi-millionaires who have purchased mansions on the Pender Islands and Vancouver Island. It's a complicated issue. Are you going to give the same discount to the mansion owner on Pender Island as you are to the unemployed Penelakut single mom on Kuper Island? I tend to agree with Neil and the "road equivalent tariff". It at least puts the islands on a level playing field with other remote communities. It doesn't really solve the disparity between the various residents of the islands. I think maybe special consideration should be taken for the First Nations communities... as a separate issue (is there any special consideration taken currently?). John, one of the enduring myths on this forum is that the Gulf Islands are enclaves of the rich, for whom higher ferry fares only involves a slight decrease in their intake of Dom Perignon. I think people are perhaps looking at those cliff side villas you see on ferry excursions through Active Pass and assuming that that's where your average islander lives. It simply isn't true. Census information shows that the average household on Mayne, Galiano, Saturna, or the Penders has an income about 80% that of the average British Columbian household. Similar or slightly lower figures are found on Gabriola, Denman, Hornby, Quadra, and Texada. You don't need to look to Kuper Island to see figures of near poverty; Cortes averages well under half the provincial average, with some types of household well under that. The wealthy lawyer escaping to his beachfront estate does not represent reality for most islanders. These are real communities, and not terribly wealthy ones at that. High ferry fares impact people who are a bit below the average provincial income, and serve to keep the visitors away who might improve the island economy, and the cost of getting to the islands impairs the setting up and functioning of businesses that might give the islands a better economic base. That's what the RET system seeks to rectify. The idea that islanders are comfortable whiners complaining about paying their fair share doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Even if there are some mansion dwellers among them, I don't see how that's relevant to the overall question of a fair fare structure. I have no problem with some of my tax dollars going to fix streets in Shaughnessy. Seems to me that it's incumbent on us as a society not to place artificial roadblocks in the way of communities thriving, be they big or small.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on May 25, 2009 21:16:44 GMT -8
Once again, I defer to true reason. I think Neil has both common sense and fact on his side.
The only reason I was picking apart the original idea of a tiered ferry fare system was because the article was written by a big-city person from Nanaimo. So, again, that is not quite the same as actually living on one of the smaller islands that are totally dependent upon ferry service.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Jul 3, 2009 8:53:03 GMT -8
Comox Valley RecordPlea made for ferry faresPublished: July 02, 2009 6:00 PM Ferry Advisory Committee chairs are using a spike in ferry traffic this January as proof that lower crossing charges would encourage travel. “The only month that there was a bit of a blip was in January when BC Ferries lowered the rates a little bit,” said Tony Law, chair of the Hornby/Denman ferry advisory committee. In December and January, the provincial government allocated $20-million to offset ferry fees — reducing the cost of travel by 33 per cent. While the ferry advisory chairs have been tracking passenger rates that are steadily declining, Law said the reduced cost for travellers, particularly in January when weather was more encouraging, did make a difference. “We thought it would happen,” said Law, noting that they would like to see it tried at a better time of year. “It was not a good month to test — we were hoping to see it in the spring sometime.” Increasing ferry fares have had a negative impact on the local communities and economies that rely on minor ferry routes, said Law. Law said the ferry committee chairs hope to meet with Minister of Transportation Shirley Bond once she’s settled in her new position — and encourage the province to come up with a long-term strategy for supporting minor ferry routes in the province. They feel the provincial government needs to make the effort, because BC Ferries is raising rates to pay for new infrastructure that the province let age too far before handing over operations to the corporation. “It’s infrastructure for essential transportation,” said Law. “This is your responsibility.” reporter@comoxvalleyrecord.com Find this article at: www.bclocalnews.com/vancouver_island_north/comoxvalleyrecord/news/49766392.html
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 15, 2009 13:40:03 GMT -8
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 15, 2009 17:52:03 GMT -8
Traffic on northern routes declined in spite of a shiny new Northern Expedition being placed in service as summer began. Add to that the fact that even here on the north usually wet coast, summer was first rate.
Why the drop? The depressed economy is certainly a factor. So to are fares. They have risen at a rate far above the rate of inflation and people are finding vacation options that present better value for their money. Passenger fares on the NorEx next summer will be $170, versus $150 this year. That is a 13% increase. A good view will still cost you $30 extra.
An example of better value for your money this year is Alaskan cruises. A couple could take a one week round trip to Alaska aboard the Norwegian Sun for less than $1600. Fifteen hours hours on the NorEx might cost them $900, assuming they have a car on board, take a cabin, take a few meals on board, & get reserved seats.
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Post by gordon on Sept 15, 2009 18:26:38 GMT -8
It's odd that B.C. Ferries would increase those fares next year, lower fares should help draw customers.
AS far as the Alaska Cruises the cruise industry greatly reduced it's fares in an attempt to fill their ships which may well have worked, but according to an article that I read that included comments from a senior person at Carnival revenues are down 40% in Alaska this year.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 15, 2009 21:35:03 GMT -8
Shirley Bond and David Hahn need to get together- they don't seem to be singing from the same hymn book. Hahn continues to maintain, bizarrely, that fares aren't affecting traffic, while Bond seems more in touch with the logic of the known universe and admits that they are. I don't recall Kevin Falcon ever disagreeing with BC Ferries on anything, so Bond better get on board, or the facade of this whole ferries set up scam could get a bit splintered.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 16, 2009 6:44:06 GMT -8
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 2, 2009 20:51:24 GMT -8
BC Ferries claims traffic is dropping, so they cut service on major routes on sailings that typically see less traffic. People seem to believe that rising fares are likely what's causing it. Or at least the current fares makes people who use the Ferries think twice about using the service to get across the pond. The economy of late hasn't been the most friendliest to some of us, myself included. Compared to last year, I've been doing only a small fraction of the amount of travelling I did last year, this year. I have a number of reasons why, but no sense in listing them off here. Regardless, money is tight for alot of us. So some people will go the extra mile to save some money.
The reason why I bring this up, is because of a trip that I've booked for myself in a little over a week from now. My destination is Kelowna, and I live on Vancouver Island. The total cost of driving there that includes, ferry fare, fuel, and food along the way is about $275.00. Plus I'd still have to refuel my car when I got home so I'd have enough gas to get to work the following day, which would mean another 50 bucks. Not to mention the amount of time spent at the Ferries, depending on the amount of sailing waits there is, which adds a minimum of about 2 hours to your travel time. From Vancouver to Kelowna if traffic is good, takes me about 4.5 to 5 hours, so that's at least a 7 hour trip if everything works out the way it's supposed to.
I've decided to fly there instead. It's cheaper to fly, and it will take me nearly half of the time to get there from the time I leave my doorstep. If I leave my place at 6:00am, I will be in Kelowna by 10:00am if I drive down to Victoria, and catch a direct Westjet flight up there. Total trip cost: $230
I've heard David Hahn compare BC Ferries fares to European Ferry Fares in the past, by basically saying we're getting the best deal. European Fares are higher due to the fact that there is cheaper alternatives, such as flying, or even having the option of using an under water tunnel for that matter. Therefore there probably wouldn't be the amount of demand for Ferries like there is here.
I realize that it's not always cheaper to fly across the Strait to get to your destination. But there's certainly some early signs that could potentially be showing us that flying might be a cheaper reality for us Islanders in the future.
Let the mud slinging begin.
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Post by Kahloke on Nov 2, 2009 22:10:01 GMT -8
I've decided to fly there instead. It's cheaper to fly, and it will take me nearly half of the time to get there from the time I leave my doorstep. If I leave my place at 6:00am, I will be in Kelowna by 10:00am if I drive down to Victoria, and catch a direct Westjet flight up there. Total trip cost: $230 Interesting comparison. In your case, flying to Kelowna seemed to be the economical choice as well as maximizing your time. For a longer distance trip, such as that one, flying is perhaps the better way to go, if you don't need your car. You have family there, so you are lucky in that regard. If a person had to add a rental car fee on top of the cost to fly there, that might not make that option quite as advantageous over driving; I'm not saying driving would be better in that instance, but both options would be more on equal footing. I've actually done something similar to what you are describing here. My parents own a second house in Sun Valley, Idaho. I've gone over there numerous times, sometimes driving, sometimes flying. The drive, from my house in Poulsbo to their house in Sun Valley is about 13 hours, including the 35 minute ferry trip from Bainbridge to Seattle. The cost, one way, is around $150.00. That includes the ferry fare, gas, & food. Many times, that is still cheaper than what it costs to fly there, but in the fall, Horizon Air will frequently offer special deals for Sun Valley flights because it is a low season. Summer crowds are gone, and the ski season hasn't started yet. 2 years ago I flew over there in October for $250.00 round trip, which made the flying option about $50.00 cheaper than driving, not to mention the time saved. It's a 2 hour flight versus a 13 hour drive. So, in a way, it's kind of similar to your experience. For longer distance trip, where time is really a factor - 4 to 5 hours to Kelowna, 13 hours to Sun Valley - flying can be the more economical choice. I'm not so sure about cross-strait trips - i.e. Victoria or Nanaimo to Vancouver. I suppose that depends on your purpose and ultimate destination. If you need to go from downtown Victoria to downtown Vancouver, perhaps flying is an economical choice, especially with West Coast Air providing harbour-to-harbour floatplane service. I don't know what those flights cost, but you would save a lot of time versus the ferries. I would surmise that the ferry is still going to be the way to go if your destination is somewhere more difficult and/or time-consuming to get to by means other than your car. If you are traveling from Victoria to some address in Port Moody, for example, it's probably easiest to drive on the ferry and take your car. This is an interesting topic, and I've rambled on far too long here, but to summarize, I think it will be a long time before flying across the strait will become cheaper than taking the ferry. Flying certainly has its niche market. That harbour-to-harbour service is probably popular for business travellers, but it's probably a bit cost prohibitive for most of the commuting public. Personally, I think feeding the major ferry terminals (Tsawwassen and Swartz Bay) with high-speed rail lines from the downtown cores would be a better way of getting people out of their cars, and should be a cheaper way of traveling versus driving and/or flying, although it would be super expensive to build such an infrastructure, and I admit, it's not likely to happen.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Nov 2, 2009 22:37:32 GMT -8
I've heard David Hahn compare BC Ferries fares to European Ferry Fares in the past, by basically saying we're getting the best deal. European Fares are higher due to the fact that there is cheaper alternatives, such as flying, or even having the option of using an under water tunnel for that matter. Therefore there probably wouldn't be the amount of demand for Ferries like there is here. Let the mud slinging begin. We've been here before, but the European comparison is not exactly fair (fare). Major European ferries generally traverse longer routes, justifying the greater fare amount. They also often cross between countries, so most likely each country's officials want to add their own transfer fees or whatever on top of what the companies may be charging. European ferries generally also offer different levels of service, such as tourist or first class, etc, so you can choose your fare to some degree as well. Also, the Euro is a stronger currency than our dollar, so even if they are paying higher fares than we are, the value of their currency is still more appropriate to cover the cost. The biggest however is, that by and large, the people in Europe have alternatives such as tunnels, freeways, bridges and high speed trains to get to the same destination without having to use a ferry... We have none, except of course air travel, but you still need to do the math on that one.
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Koastal Karl
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Post by Koastal Karl on Nov 3, 2009 9:48:50 GMT -8
Now only if WestJet flew to Kelowna out of Comox that might even be quicker Chris. I know you can get to Kelowna from Comox with WestJet but you have to go to Calgary first and it's more expensive from there! I am taking that same flight from Victoria to Kelowna next month on my way to Edmonton we stop in Kelowna but I have taken that flight before and it's pretty quick. I just wish WestJet out of Victoria had more Kelowna flights like Vancouver instead of just 1 flight a day! The return flight is like 6pm I think and I will be taking that flight too on my way back from Edmonton.
But I chose those flights cause I like flying into Kelowna. I could of gone direct to Edmonton but sometimes if it's a short trip I will take flights that make a stop cause I love flying and I would go a roundabout way to get there if the price was the same for every flight and if I am not in a big rush to get there then yeah it's all good!
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