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Post by BreannaF on Sept 1, 2007 6:22:55 GMT -8
A concept from economics class:
If you put a price on an item or service that is being offered for "free" or as part of a prepaid/pre-taxed package, then there will be much less waste in their use.
Example one: A company wanted to offer a few unusual perks for its employees. One of them was Coke machines that dispensed free cold sodas to all employees. The employees tended to waste the resource -- taking cans and not drinking them, drinking only a few sips then wasting the rest, and so on. The company thought the employees were abusing the privilege. Their solution: They set up the machines to sell the product for a dime a can. It was still basically free, but the fact that there was a small cost involved caused the resource to be conserved.
Of course, we see the same thing in a more mainstream situation. That would be the co-payments for medical visits. Ten or twenty dollars per visit doesn't start to pay for the costs of the service. But it does tend to keep people from going to the doctor as a form of free social event.
I'm a proponent of free public transit. But I'm not necessarily opposed to some sort of token fare to ride.
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FNS
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The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
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Post by FNS on Sept 1, 2007 12:09:27 GMT -8
I'm a proponent of free public transit. Just look at Whidbey Island. They don't collect fares on transit buses there. The drivers greet you as you board, click you in on the ridership denominator device, and you enjoy the ride. All buses there have video security cameras (since day one in 1987), so don't do anything I wouldn't do. Island Transit is funded by taxable merchandise you purchase there in Island County. www.islandtransit.orgBy the way, their front page shows the MV OLYMPIC at Keystone in happier days (and after she got her new bow extensions and new international rules navigation lights). This probably was in the late 1980s. www.islandtransit.org/images/editor/bus_w_ferry.jpgHot-linking is against Proboards TOS. Please host these images when posting an image to the discussion
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Post by Retrovision on Sept 1, 2007 15:45:32 GMT -8
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Post by BreannaF on Sept 2, 2007 7:16:33 GMT -8
From their website
I suspect that this isn't a big issue in Oak Harbor or Coupeville. But probably a good thing to have on the books just in case.
On the other hand, I could just picture the Hastings line filled up on every trip with the homeless of the Lower East Side just trying to keep warm for a few trips out and back.
BC has a law similar to this. It's a fine idea!
Oregon (where I'm stuck at the moment) also has a similar law, but with one additional twist. Drivers must yield to transit vehicles, but only if they have a flashing red yield sign on the back which is flashing! The unintended result: You need to yield to the local transit buses since they are so equipped, but not to the suburban commuter transit vehicles from Vancouver, WA to the north that come into Downtown Portland, since they only have the Washington RCW signs, not the flashing yield signs. But we do anyway....
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Post by Barnacle on Sept 2, 2007 8:37:45 GMT -8
By the way, their front page shows the MV OLYMPIC at Keystone in happier days (and after she got her new bow extensions and new international rules navigation lights). This probably was in the late 1980s. www.islandtransit.org/images/editor/bus_w_ferry.jpgDirect link from Island Transit's site. It's from about 1989. Note that the green "Flying T" DOT hubcap is absent from the stack, replaced instead by the Washington Centennial "'89" logo in red. There's still a few hanging about at Eagle Harbor.
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Post by Retrovision on Sept 2, 2007 14:38:56 GMT -8
... On the other hand, I could just picture the Hastings line filled up on every trip with the homeless of the Lower East Side just trying to keep warm for a few trips out and back. ... A healthy, scratch that, adequate, scratch that, even a slight improvement on our bare bones social support network offered by government would atleast start to address that issue. BC has a law similar to this. It's a fine idea! Oregon (where I'm stuck at the moment) also has a similar law, but with one additional twist. Drivers must yield to transit vehicles, but only if they have a flashing red yield sign on the back which is flashing! The unintended result: You need to yield to the local transit buses since they are so equipped, but not to the suburban commuter transit vehicles from Vancouver, WA to the north that come into Downtown Portland, since they only have the Washington RCW signs, not the flashing yield signs. But we do anyway.... This seems to be the wave of the future but I had no idea how prohibitive the similar law is in Oregon. As a cost saving measure I'm sure we wouldn't have allowed such idiocy of preventing buses to be yielded to simply because of lack of costly infrastructure that would be difficult to argue as necessary - our decals work just fine up here, that and the strong will of our bus drivers to get the job done efficiently.
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Post by Dane on Apr 12, 2008 11:02:07 GMT -8
I work with a youth programme, and every year we take a trip to Victoria to visit various sites. BC Ferries has been great in the past with a group rate, per person, of around $5 on Rte 1. This year, it's $11 - it's up 95% from last year!!!! Our bus+ferry budget from 2007 will only cover ferry this year! Grrrrr. That is all.
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Post by Hardy on Apr 12, 2008 16:24:22 GMT -8
It definitely seems that they are more "private" than "public" in terms of when it comes to jack up the fares. As a public (govt) owned entity, they had more hoops and red tape to jump through in order to increase the fares; however, now that they are 'privatized', this is no longer the case. Trust me, I am far too well aware of the fare increases and their affect on the bottom line. Luckily, as I am in business, I can recover some (not all!) of the additional costs - I can hide some of it into my billing as FSC (cuz I don't burn my own fuel when I am aboard a BCF vessel), and some of it in terms of rate increases for my customers, but I cannot hike up my rates to match BCFS' increases - therefore, I end up eating a portion of the increased fares which either has to come out of my company's bottom line, or out of my wages (or I have to find other ways to cut a corner or two). In the past, when I made a roundtrip to the island, I paid my employees TIME on the ferry ONE WAY at a flat rate - usually 2 hours for a Rte-1 trip (note: they got paid for DRIVING time to/from the terminal, just not in-terminal wait time), and gave them a $25 per person/round trip meal allowance (for eating on the boat). If there was excessive wait time, I worked something out (usually paid at 50% wage) or, if returning from a house move, if they cleaned the truck up while they were waiting for a boat, I made arrangements to compensate them at full rate for the time spend doing something productive. Now, I can no longer afford to be as generous with payment for time spent sailing or waiting ... and that has affected my company more than just on the bottom line. Oh well ... my vent is over for now too!
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Apr 12, 2008 17:12:44 GMT -8
BTW, I got one question, why the heck would the government of BC penalize mass transit for using gasoline when they transport more people? I think BCFS should be exempted from the carbon tax since it will hit the consumers pocket books and is already unfair to the islanders. The fares have been skyrocketing and there needs to be caps on it. The BC Ferry Commission has failed to do its job in providing fare caps and the government for providing little subsidies while showing corruption by wanting more money for their pocket books. This is a failure on many parts and the privatized system is beginning to show its cons. It cannot be accounted for and it was originally to do that. It does not work with ferry transportation. They seem to not get the picture!
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Post by Balfour on Apr 12, 2008 21:45:00 GMT -8
I'll add that I payed $16.50 each way on route 2 for me and my bike. I seem to remember paying something like $12-$13 for the same thing back in 2004. The cost for just a foot passenger is now around $13. That's quite an increase!
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Post by Mike C on Apr 13, 2008 18:02:35 GMT -8
I don't recall them charging extra for bikes... do they now? I could've sworn they were free...
Well, I scored a CoastSaver today on Rte 30 today, came to $8.15... that's what they should be charging for a normal fare...
I paid $13-something on the way over on Rte 2.
I also recall in the summer paying the sum of $200 one-way for my family + car + trailer to get a spot on the Queen of Alberni, minus the reservation fee.
...stupid...
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Quatchi
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Engineering Officer - CCG
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Post by Quatchi on Apr 13, 2008 18:08:34 GMT -8
Ohh yeah they really rip you off, you gotta pay an extra 24$ to get a bike up the inside passage and 12$ to the Queen Charlotte Islands.
Then my mom tells me of the days when it was 10$ to take her car on route 1.
Coastsaver is always a pleasant surprise, we nailed that on our Circlepac trip last fall. For 3 people and a truck it costs less than just a truck with no driver.
Cheers,
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Post by Canucks on Apr 13, 2008 18:34:37 GMT -8
I personally don't mind the fare hikes because they are a company with aging boats that need more maintenance which is constantly on the rise. What bothers me are the "hidden charges". For example last time I went on route 2 every passenger had a fuel surcharge, the car had a surcharge, there was a port improvement fee(maybe a giant sign that says "AWESOME") . This totaled about $20 if I'm not mistaken. And now we will have the Carbon tax. I wouldn't be surprised if you have to pay for water on them soon.
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Mirrlees
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Post by Mirrlees on Apr 13, 2008 18:50:44 GMT -8
I wouldn't be surprised if you have to pay for water on them soon. Don't give the revenue department any ideas...!
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Apr 13, 2008 19:24:00 GMT -8
Mirrlees, just to grind your gears I sent them an idea
REDUCE THE DARN FARES ALL OVER THE SYSTEM!
That is the only idea anybody will allow to be sent there to Fleet House.
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Post by kerryssi on Apr 15, 2008 11:25:26 GMT -8
Personally I feel this whole user pay thing is stupid. The ferries provide transportation and as such are part of the economic infrastructure of the province the same as roads and bridges. By attacking the ferries the government is attacking the economy and bringing hardship on the working people who must pay a higher price for goods. It is like the government suddenly decided that if you want to live or work in Vancouver you suddenly had to pay a toll on all roads and bridges into or out of the city, then kept raising the tolls. Bikes used to travel free a long time ago. Unfortunately when cycling became the latest "in" thing they swamped the ferries, at least in the southern gulf islands. It was not unusual for 200 to 300 or more cyclists to show up for one weekend sailing from tsa to the gulf islands. All traveling for free. The bikes that is. This took up a lot of car deck space and meant cars had to be left behind, it also created a lot of delays as the cyclists each demanded their own space and would argue with the crew over where they were to put the bikes. When they finally started charging for bikes it dramaticaly reduced the number of bikes on the sailings. It also reduced the number of delays.
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Post by In Washington on Apr 15, 2008 12:06:13 GMT -8
Washington State Ferries has one price for passengers in school groups: $1 each way, per group up to I believe 40 passengers.
Any vehicle(s) involved pay the regular fee.
Walking on and getting public transportation (local buses), or walking to their destination is pretty darn cheap for school groups.
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Post by Starsteward on Apr 15, 2008 14:12:44 GMT -8
Hey Cadmunkey, you should have asked your Mom if she remembers when the fare on route 1 and 2 back in the early days was the huge sum of $ 5.00 for car AND driver.
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Quatchi
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Post by Quatchi on Apr 15, 2008 14:24:37 GMT -8
She wasn't old enough to give a crap in the early years. Also didn't live in BC then.
Also when they did move back to BC my grandfather worked for BCF so they didn't pay anyways until my mom started driving herself.
Cheers,
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Post by kerryssi on Apr 16, 2008 10:16:22 GMT -8
I believe group fares are still available. There are still special rates for school children and school buses transporting them
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2008 10:34:09 GMT -8
I remember when fares were $5.00 for car and driver and $2.00 per passenger, $1.00 for under 12 years. Bus terminal to bus terminal was about $5.50-6.25. Wages in the shipyards were about $3.00/hr and the minimum wage was about $0.75/hr. Those were the days.
I sure think twice about leaving the island for a trip, because of the higher fares now. I usually try to do one or more things when I am going traveling to Vancouver or the mainland. No more day trips for me.
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Post by Dane on Apr 16, 2008 11:46:47 GMT -8
I remember when fares were $5.00 for car and driver and $2.00 per passenger, $1.00 for under 12 years. Bus terminal to bus terminal was about $5.50-6.25. Wages in the shipyards were about $3.00/hr and the minimum wage was about $0.75/hr. Those were the days. I sure think twice about leaving the island for a trip, because of the higher fares now. I usually try to do one or more things when I am going traveling to Vancouver or the mainland. No more day trips for me. Interesting to note, if min wage was .75 cents and a fare was $2 the ferry, for a minimum wage earner a crossing is more affordable now.... How numbers can lie
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Post by Balfour on Apr 16, 2008 12:05:03 GMT -8
I remember when fares were $5.00 for car and driver and $2.00 per passenger, $1.00 for under 12 years. Bus terminal to bus terminal was about $5.50-6.25. Wages in the shipyards were about $3.00/hr and the minimum wage was about $0.75/hr. Those were the days. I sure think twice about leaving the island for a trip, because of the higher fares now. I usually try to do one or more things when I am going traveling to Vancouver or the mainland. No more day trips for me. Interesting to note, if min wage was .75 cents and a fare was $2 the ferry, for a minimum wage earner a crossing is more affordable now.... How numbers can lie That's an interesting point. At $0.75/hr, it would take more than 2 hours of work to earn the ferry fare for one way. At $8/hr in 2 hours you would make more than the fare for a walk-on, in 3 hours, you could afford a round trip. We whine when the fares go up, yet we forget that wages were a lot lower 40 years ago than they are now. People look at the prices of 40 years ago and compare them to the fares of 2008 and think "Holy Smokes everything was so cheap back then" when it really wasn't in relation to the wages at the time.
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Post by DENelson83 on Apr 16, 2008 12:39:51 GMT -8
Interesting to note, if min wage was .75 cents and a fare was $2 the ferry, for a minimum wage earner a crossing is more affordable now.... How numbers can lie .75 cents is less than one percent of $2.
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Post by Hardy on Apr 16, 2008 16:33:50 GMT -8
I do not think that this tells the whole story. Minimum wage aside, I still make, on average (while in the employ of others) about the same wage that I did 10 years ago for my classification of job. I guarantee you that my cost of living has gone up though! I don't think that I have worked for min wage since I was 10 mowing lawns, but I am not at the top wage earning end of things either, being that I am basically "unskilled" physical labour (I hate this term, as if a mover is not skilled, then why doesn't everyone move their own junk?).
Let's take something like candy bars. I remember paying 25-30 cents for these when I was growing up around 1980-4. They're $1.20 now ... for darn certain my wages would not have quadrupled! Anyone care to post what a jug (or those bags!) of milk cost back in the mid 80's? How about a loaf of bread?
Staples prices have gone up as has the general cost of living, and it has done so in a higher percentage than the wage rate. Housing costs in the Greater Vancouver Metro area (and other built up areas) have also jumped way more than the generally allowed COLA. Things have become more expensive, and ferry ridership is but one of those things.
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