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Post by ferrytraveller on Jan 31, 2008 19:37:44 GMT -8
well they will have at least one spare, but that is the same position as we are in now. Under normal operations, the esquimalt and vancouver are spares, but, with MLU and breakdowns and refits, they are needed to fill in for extended periods of time. I included the Vancouver as a spare due to the fact, the saanich does the extra sailings from swartz bay and is used more often. Once they are gone, most likely we will have the Cowichan and Coquitlam and New West all as the spares. The Esquimalt is really the only real spare since the Coquitlam provides extra service on route 2 and 3 and the vancouver on route 1. The New West replaces the Vancouver and the Coquitlam, stays where it is. I think we should keep the Saanich or Vancouver around a bit longer until an other new vessel is built.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jan 31, 2008 19:49:13 GMT -8
well they will have at least one spare, but that is the same position as we are in now. Under normal operations, the esquimalt and vancouver are spares, but, with MLU and breakdowns and refits, they are needed to fill in for extended periods of time. I included the Vancouver as a spare due to the fact, the saanich does the extra sailings from swartz bay and is used more often. Once they are gone, most likely we will have the Cowichan and Coquitlam and New West all as the spares. The Esquimalt is really the only real spare since the Coquitlam provides extra service on route 2 and 3 and the vancouver on route 1. The New West replaces the Vancouver and the Coquitlam, stays where it is. I think we should keep the Saanich or Vancouver around a bit longer until an other new vessel is built. Well, the Cowichan, Coquitlam, and New West as spares represents an improvement over the three they're getting rid of, so I guess we'll just have to get used to it. Anyway, from today's Globe and Mail.... Workhorses of B.C. ferry fleet heading for new watersJUSTINE HUNTER January 31, 2008 at 6:01 AM EST VICTORIA — At 7 a.m. on June 15, 1960, in fine weather, Captain John Horne took the Queen of Tsawwassen out on its first commercial run from Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay. Now, after nearly five decades plying B.C.'s coast carrying millions of passengers, the oldest ship in the British Columbia Ferry Services Inc., fleet is being retired from service. If the ship had an odometer, it would show about three million nautical miles. "She's worn out," Mr. Horne admitted yesterday. "It kind of breaks my heart." But in those early days, the then-young captain was delighted to have the conduct of one of the first ships built for British Columbia's newly created public ferry service. "I was attached to her. She was never stretched or raised, she just was herself and she was a good ship," he said in an interview. In two years, he took the ship through hazardous Active Pass on the route connecting Vancouver and Victoria about 1,260 times. He quickly learned one of the Tsawwassen's quirks: A full load of cars would play havoc with the magnetic compass then used for navigation. "Going through Active Pass in fog, I would tell my quartermaster: 'Don't look at the compass. If you chase it, we'll be in trouble.' " By the time Jackie Miller joined the crew as a catering attendant in 1973, the ship had long since lost its new-car smell. "She was a little workhorse, a tremendous ship," recalled Ms. Miller, now president of the B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers' Union. The ferry is one of four heading for the auction block, BC Ferries announced yesterday, along with the Queen of Esquimalt, the Queen of Vancouver and the Queen of Saanich. The youngest of them is 45 years old and each has completed at least 125,000 sailings - the equivalent of more than 130 trips around the world. But Ms. Miller is feeling more than nostalgia for the loss. "It defies logic that they would dispose of them," she said in an interview yesterday. The old ferries are slow, patches on their rusty decks are peeling and they can shudder violently when the engine drive changes direction. But without them, she warned, the ferry service won't have any replacement vessels if an accident occurs, as happened last month when the Northern Adventure was left dead in the water for days with engine trouble, cutting off northern communities on its route. "There's more strain on everyone if we don't have relief ships when we have an emergency or extended refits," she said. Rumours of the sale have spread among the crews for months, but the union had hoped at least one of the ships would be kept as a training vessel. However, company president David Hahn announced yesterday the "new phase in the evolution of BC Ferries." The company, no longer a Crown corporation, is taking delivery of three new "coastal class" vessels this year, and plans to sell the four oldest ships by the fall. The company can't say how much they are worth, but the Tsawwassen's sister ship, the Queen of Sidney, sold six years ago for just $100,000. Deborah Marshall, a spokeswoman for BC Ferries, said the sale isn't expected to raise much cash - the main factor is maintenance costs. "To keep these ships operational, it would cost us $3.5-million per ship, per year," she said. But she promised a good sendoff for the Tsawwassen. "The Tsawwassen marked the start of our company," she said. "We'll have a retirement party for her." *****
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Post by PCL Driver on Jan 31, 2008 21:36:43 GMT -8
Yeah I'm sure they will. On the beach at Alang, India.......
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Post by WettCoast on Jan 31, 2008 23:08:03 GMT -8
How about a mega-big beach barbecue complete with BC beer, just like the one they had in Germany for the CR. Might help the ship breaking workers to expel some of the asbestos fibers that they would be taking on...
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 1, 2008 5:10:34 GMT -8
Back on another tangent for a sec too... WRT condition - we know how the decks and interiors look, and are aware that the machinery is getting old, tired and long in the tooth, but do we know what condition the Vancouver, Saanich, Esquimalt and Tsawwassen are in BELOW decks? I know this was asked previous but the answer was more or less general and vague. And does BCFS even know themselves? I remember a few years ago when they pulled the NIP out to do some " minor" repairs to the hull only to find out there were years of undocumented repairs made. Apparently there was so much concrete in the hull, they ended up removing a signifcant portion of the hull just to get it out. Leaves me wondering...
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 1, 2008 8:56:50 GMT -8
Does anyone know what the asking price is for the ferries? If there's enough time, Do we have the necessary means to form a non-profit historical society and at least buy one of them for ourselves?
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Koastal Karl
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Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
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Post by Koastal Karl on Feb 1, 2008 9:45:03 GMT -8
And paint BC Ferries Forum on the side of it. Make it our BC Ferry Forum ship for get togethers and parties!! lol!
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 1, 2008 10:05:26 GMT -8
And paint BC Ferries Forum on the side of it. Make it our BC Ferry Forum ship for get togethers and parties!! lol! Someone needs to design a logo and paint scheme for us then, so we don't get any more flack from BCFerries.
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Post by Coastal Canuck on Feb 1, 2008 11:58:59 GMT -8
What will happen if there is a break down in the summer on Route 1 because there won't be any more vessels that could run on the route if 3 of the 4 that are capable of doing the route are in service and the 4th has broken down
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 1, 2008 12:30:35 GMT -8
What will happen if there is a break down in the summer on Route 1 because there won't be any more vessels that could run on the route if 3 of the 4 that are capable of doing the route are in service and the 4th has broken down As I see it, they are 'for sale', not sold (yet), so they'll probably keep them around just to run the last few miles out of them and then, once they well and truly beyond hope from a mechanical stand point, and then give a third world country a good deal on them, or make them disappear into the pit of despair.
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Post by markkarj on Feb 2, 2008 17:12:47 GMT -8
I'm curious... what's the probability that someone will buy the ships to actually use them? If they need that much maintenance, will a buyer simply ship them to Alang or Turkey (I thought ship-breakers in Turkey had been mentioned before)?
I seem to remember a couple of the Queen of the North's sisters have been dismantled... and those were all newer than the soon to be retired V class ships.
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Post by Hardy on Feb 2, 2008 19:46:44 GMT -8
The thing of it is, there are very few places around the world where you NEED this particular style of ship. West coast of North America is pretty unique in that scope. However, failing TC regs means that they are not viable for US use. Mexico doesn't have a huge demand for ferries. Overseas, the next closest comparison would probably be Norway, in terms of distance/geography. However, it is far further NORTH and these ships are not rated for northern use (ice, weather etc). High rate of ferry usage in the far east and Med, but again, they are not suited for that. So having a limited market place to shop them around, and not a lot of uptake on being compliant, there is a small to non-existant market to actually sell them into. You can always convert them into something else other than what they were designed for, but that brings up that nasty COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS thing ... the CBA of these vessels is LOW to NONE unless (as stated before) they are "emergency stop-gap boats" for WSF ... and the likelihood of that (which is the purpose they are best suited for) is slim-to-none also! So you are left with boats that no one wants/needs....
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Post by hergfest on Feb 3, 2008 2:45:44 GMT -8
They converted the Victoria to a ocean going bow, albet not for very long.
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Post by DENelson83 on Feb 3, 2008 13:34:30 GMT -8
Hmmm... Seems the best option for these four vessels, if WSF can't accept them, would simply be to scrap them.
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Post by ruddernut on Feb 3, 2008 15:07:54 GMT -8
Hmmm... Seems the best option for these four vessels, if WSF can't accept them, would simply be to scrap them. Could WSF resist buying them at scrap metal prices? I'd really like to see as much utility come out of them as possible before they hit the scrap yard, even if we don't make any extra profit out of it.
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Post by 7sisters on Feb 3, 2008 15:41:55 GMT -8
When i was onboard the Coastal Renaissance yesterday at the Nanaimo Open House i overheard David Hahn saying to a fellow that at the present time there were no plans for a retirement ceremony for the Queen of Tsawwassen...However he did say that he is very aware of how popular she is and of her history with the fleet and there may be something down the road when the time comes.......
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Post by Hardy on Feb 4, 2008 9:12:09 GMT -8
Hmmm... Seems the best option for these four vessels, if WSF can't accept them, would simply be to scrap them. Could WSF resist buying them at scrap metal prices? I would think that as long as it was looked at as a SHORT TERM stop gap solution, that it could be made workable. Again, we would have to see if the vessels are even remotely compatible with the infrastructure that WSF has in place. If they were going to be used for 18-24 month period while newbuild ferries were sourced out, then I am sure that they could be made to "work" within regulatory framework. We know that the V's are old and tired. They need a large amount of maintenance just to stay running, nevermind COMPLIANT with the tough new regulations coming down the pipeline. As short term measures though, there is feasibility. Even for BCFS to have a training/spare boat has some upside to it, however, training on WHAT then? Most of the systems used onboard the V's are not used onboard any other vessel. Newer vessels such as the Coastals and Spirits are using modern technology not retrofitted "kludge" solutions as the V's are. Proper use as training boats would require investment of large amounts of money to be able to train crews on similar and modern equipment to which they will be expected to work with. As they sit now, the V's are not up to this task. Plus, as I have said before, we really don't know JUST how bad a condition they are in below the MCD!
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Post by ferrytraveller on Feb 4, 2008 12:44:53 GMT -8
Well BC Ferries use to use the Albert J salvoie as a training vessel. I know people are trained on the MEC's at a place called Triton Marine in Vancouver. They built a building specifically for this purpose and have a full scale Marine Evacuation shute there to train the employee's. Also Most new BC Ferries Crew's are trained here at my school, BCIT Marine Campus for the MED's and Life Rafts and Life Boats. There is also many courses here to become a mate and engineer. So really BC Ferries just has no in house training ship, so crew's are familiar with how BC Ferries wants things to operate. But all crews do have training on the equipment.
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 28, 2008 18:09:48 GMT -8
Perhaps our used boats will end up in Bangladesh, at a ship breaking beach there, I mean. Apparently the US TV program 60 Minutes recently did a piece on the ship breaking business in Bangladesh. To See more follow this link: news.yahoo.com/i/2833
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Post by markkarj on Feb 28, 2008 22:04:47 GMT -8
We know that the V's are old and tired. They need a large amount of maintenance just to stay running, nevermind COMPLIANT with the tough new regulations coming down the pipeline. As short term measures though, there is feasibility. I know the Queen of New West is under some pretty serious refitting right about now. While I know it's somewhat newer and was lifted/re-engined a decade after the V class ships, is it any more compliant with current/upcoming regulations than the Vs? What safety/code/whatever upgrades would the New West have had that the Vs haven't?
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Post by Dane on Feb 28, 2008 22:16:12 GMT -8
1 - The Alberni on route 30 - Do they really intend to keep this as a #1 vessel on this route? The contrast in the level of service & amenities between her and her running mate (the CI) are huge. I can see them having to offer permanent Coast Saver fares to get people to ride her in preference to the CI. IMHO route 30 needs a full C class vessel with the gallery decks stripped out to increase overhieght capacity. That would yield a ship with much improved passenger spaces, and not such a huge contrast when compared with the CI. Great point - I agree with your assessment fully. Perhaps some things to consider: A. Although the CI and Alberni are vastly different to both the ferry nerd and the general public because of BC Ferries strong (and successful) campaign to common-brand all the major vessels I have found people less and less able to tell the differences between all aspects of the vessels except food services. B. I imagine the CI will nearly always run with only the upper passenger deck open if operations of the Coastals go as we have so far heard with only trips running over 750 pass (?) with the lower passenger deck open. If this is the case the ammenities of the CI are considerably "reduced" if you consider the main ammenity of the CI to be space! C. Again from the rumourmill, but my understanding is that removal of the gallery decks on the C Class was/is either uneconomical of not possible. This would be a fantastic question for the AGM. 3 - MLU's finished? Perhaps not. With the arrival of the CC on route 1 it will be possible during the refit season to take one Spirit out of circulation for a prolonged period. We have read about the Coast Boats being so much more fuel efficient then the Spirits. Taking each Spirit out would allow them to have major hull and power train upgrades done, so as to increase efficiencies and ultimately lower these ships operating costs over their remaining service lives. They could, for instance, do one ship during the winter of 2008-9, and the other the following year. Their passenger spaces recently had major upgrades done, so little if anything needs doing in that department. So just possibly we will be seeing a couple of more MLU's in the near future. But then again management at BCFS's does not usually follow any advice that I might have. The last refits on both Spirits were fairly substantial; I would be doubtful, that at least for a few years that we see major work done to the Spirits. I could be totally wrong, but I imagine the next year or two will see BC Ferries playing around with smaller vessels as we're finally going to be in a position where major vessels are not spending long periods out of service and reliability should be pretty good - although the V's seem to have less breakdowns than, lets say, the C Class ( ;D ) they ate up a huge amount of service and maintenance time. A family friend of mine who worsk for BCFS noted this when a V Class was assigned to Langdale often crew from HSB would get extra work to hop on the V (ussually the Esquimalt) to make sure she kept running through the whole day! Cheers
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Post by Scott on Feb 28, 2008 22:48:22 GMT -8
I wondered the same about the CI on route 30. Will she ever use the lower passenger deck on that route? I suppose in the summer when there is more smaller vehicle traffic, but there usually isn't a lot of walk-on on that route and it can get really quiet. They really need public transit to Duke Point to Nanaimo and to Ladysmith - that might improve walk-on traffic. But it's not really under BC Ferries control.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 29, 2008 10:35:14 GMT -8
I wondered the same about the CI on route 30. Will she ever use the lower passenger deck on that route? I suppose in the summer when there is more smaller vehicle traffic, but there usually isn't a lot of walk-on on that route and it can get really quiet. They really need public transit to Duke Point to Nanaimo and to Ladysmith - that might improve walk-on traffic. But it's not really under BC Ferries control. It seems that they've got them designed a little backwards now... if they are only going to using one passenger deck most of the time, they should have the main passenger deck on the bottom, like on any other normal ferry, and have the overflow space above it. Maybe, on route 30, they should have arranged the lower deck as the main passenger deck due to the lower expected passenger compliment, and then there would be easier access to the outside decks. Actually, there didn't really seem to be much passenger space on deck 5, so why didn't they make deck 5 the main deck of passenger spaces, and put the wheelhouses up on top of Deck 6 like on the other ferries, so you don't have to climb as many stairs to get to the cafeteria? (although maybe that is a key selling point for the cafeteria).
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Post by queenofcowichan on Feb 29, 2008 10:54:47 GMT -8
Transit to Ladysmith and Duke Point are in the "Planning" Stages at RDN Transit in Nanaimo, This was brought up at one of the transit info meetings I attended not to long ago in French Creek. However I think it will be a few years yet before the service is actually started.
I wonder if the Esquimalt has been sold as she is not schedualed for service after the Cowichan takes over on March 9.
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Post by Hardy on Mar 1, 2008 8:16:54 GMT -8
I've lightly scoured the net when I have had the chance lately trying to find any mention of it, as I too find it odd that all of a sudden she has been disappeared from all BCFS plans. The quick revision of the service notices regarding the schedules on Rte-30 leads credence to this theory, but I have been unable to find any concrete information to back it up (nor asbestos information either! )
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