Ideas for New Ferries

[BreannaF]

A few thoughts from another thread:

staffer said:

One thing that has some traction is route 30 getting one of the new vessels. Many truckers and non-commercial OH vehicle drivers have phoned in the past year warning the corporation that they will go back to using route 2 during busy times if route 2 does get two coastal boats.

dane said:

The decision to put one of Rte 30 just makes me shake my head. Rte 2, with the C Class have crammed vessels several months out of the year due to lack of space. Now they sending a ship with large passenger areas onto a route where there is almost no foot traffic and a majority of deck space is taken up by large commercial vehicles, not buses or cars.

scott said:

This placement is to decide how this particular design handles high amounts of overheight traffic. From this testing, they will decide what will be needed and what will need to be omitted for the next set of ships seeing long term placement on Route 30...

prqueenkid16 said:

Once the testing is complete, she should be servicing Route 2 out of Horseshoe Bay...If they want to Improve the Traffic on route 30, I say they should just build a new vessel instead of taking a ferry that's more suited for one of the two busiest routes in the system.

So, truck traffic is profitable. Trucks need lots of space, but not many passenger spaces. Commercial trucking companies will use a route with the boats that provide the most convenience and cost-effectiveness for them.

So let's think "outside the box" for a moment. Some of the actual numbers here may need adjusting, but just to brainstorm, what would a ferry that carried 100 trucks and 400 passengers look like. Yes, a truck ferry, but one that could also be used as part of a general ferry system. But with amenities a professional trucker would love.

Whatever the size is, it would be a ferry that was totally truck friendly. Roll-on and roll-off 100 or so at a time! That should keep the lines and demand under control. Use one of these on Route 30. Efficient for truckers.

Keep the passenger counts low. 100 trucks means 100 drivers. Let some cars come on, whatever. But a lower passenger count means the crew count could be kept somewhat lower, lowering costs for this particular run.

Or not. Thoughts??

[markkarj]

Wouldn't a ship like that look an awful lot like the Queen of Alberni prior to lifting?

[Low Light Mike]

re the "Route 30 Dilemma": It's almost like we're back to pre-1976 again, re the niche-ship "Queen of Alberni" being dreamed-up, built and introduced.

I suspect the Alberni's idea-conception might be an interesting comparison to what we're now discussing re the future Route-30 vessels.

I wonder if someone with some history might give us some indication on whether these 2 situations are comparable (Jim?). And I wonder if there are any 1970's Alberni lessons that shouldn't be forgotten, regarding the plans for Route-30.

[Scott]

Queen of Alberni is one example. You could even look at the Carrier Princess, which I think has some space for passengers. Or the Seaspan Doris with a passenger deck:)

So what happened in the 1980's? Was the Queen of Alberni useful as a truck ferry? Was the only reason she was lifted (along with the New West) because BC Ferries had a capacity problem and didn't want to pay for new ferries? The Queen of the North was put on Route 2 in the early 1980s because of the need for more capacity, but she obviously wasn't fit for that route.

My guess is that the Alberni was useful as a truck ferry, but was more useful as a regular ferry. I'm not sure of the political setting of the 1980's that had the two ferries lifted rather than building new ferries. As a crown corp. decisions like this were as much political as they were business. Unfortunately, as much as I like the boat, the Queen of Alberni has drawbacks as a larger car-carrying ferry. The limited passenger space was not addessed to the same extent.

It's sort of a tricky situation. Do you build a ferry for the purpose of carrying overheights but will also carry regular traffic? A truck-only ferry wouldn't really need a playroom, large lounge, snack bar or cafeteria (one, but not both), gift shop?, or pamphlet wall. But if the ferry will carry tourists, do you want them on a ship with limited amenities? Or could you build a boat that had most amenities, which could be used in the morning and afternoons to the Gulf Islands or suppliment on major routes, but overnight be used to haul mainly commercial traffic?

[Low Light Mike]

admin said:

The Queen of the North was put on Route 2 in the early 1980s because of the need for more capacity, but she obviously wasn't fit for that route.

I'll do the technically correct thing, and point out that the original Surrey was on route-2 in 1974 & 1975 (and maybe early 1976?).

Another way of looking at it: She was only on Route-2 during the time that the Philadelphia Flyers were the Stanley Cup Champions. Once Montreal reclaimed the cup, the Surrey was sent to the sidelines. Or at least that's how it seemed to me.

Sorry to sidetrack your point John. I know it was a typo...

[Low Light Mike]

The possible uses for future surplus-V's might address some of the commercial traffic under-supply.

This time next year, we will most likely have the Saanich and Vancouver, which gives BCFS "opportunities for new business", as Mr. Hahn said at the last AGM.

So maybe a new truck ferry will be an old car ferry?

[Scott]

Maybe they could unlift them:) Take out the upper car deck, the ramps, the snack bar.. turn them back into B-classes. Lighter, better fuel efficiency, less wear and tear on the mechanical parts.... add another 15 years to their life:)

[markkarj]

admin said:

Maybe they could unlift them:) Take out the upper car deck, the ramps, the snack bar.. turn them back into B-classes. Lighter, better fuel efficiency, less wear and tear on the mechanical parts.... add another 15 years to their life:)

Thinking about the old car ferry becomes a new truck ferry concept, how feasible is it to squeeze any more life out of the Vancouver and the Saanich? Or is it better to simply bite the bullet and buy new up-to-date (and likely more fuel efficient) ships than to keep running boats that are nearly 50 years old?

[Scott]

In the long run, I'm pretty sure it's better to buy new ships.

[Low Light Mike]

re using an old car ferry for a truck ferry:

We might have some news on that by mid-September, if Hahn says something at the BCFS A.G.M. It's more fun to discuss an announcement....instead of speculation.

But until there's something announced, speculation is the most fun thing we've got....

[Northern Exploration]

I think that to keep to their promises of new ferries they have some decisions to make pretty soon. They are still very quiet on the Chilliwacks replacement and past when they said they would announce. The money in the budget is much less than the NorEx. I think I remember $60 million. Will have to check later. They also left the door open for a used boat in their comments if I remember correctly too. We have the slice and dice ferry, the three Coastals, NorAd, NorEx, and the new Island Serenity (as one of our own has coined her) Intermediate Ferry under construction. That is 8. The Chilliwack replacement is 9. The AGM will be interesting.

[WettCoast]

The Alberni was built not just for trucks, but also for summer RV traffic. As most will know she originally was placed on route 1 and allowed the then unlifted V's to focus on moving under height traffic. It was common at that time to have 20 sailings daily during the summers on route 1. The Alberni originally had a crossing time of 75 minutes on route 1.

The Alberni's small passenger capacity was fine when she had the single car deck. Why it was not enlarged significantly when the upper car deck was added, or even during last winter's MLU, is questionable.

New truck/RV only ferries I suspect would be similar in design to the Alberni, as originally built. They could call these (temporarily) the 'Super A Class'. The one thing that they might do would be to have a fully enclosed car deck, however, unlike the original Alberni.

As to route 30. What makes sense to me is to modify the Cowichan & Coquitlam by removing their gallery decks, and then making them the primary vessels on this route for the next 10 years or so. The Alberni could do relief, and also be added as a third ship on this route during peak periods.

As to the other main routes:

• Build another Coastal and place it on route 1 so that their would be two Spirits and two Coastals keeping the same/similar schedules as we have now.
  
• Alternatively build two new 'Super Spirits' for route 1. Perhaps these would be single enders, and designed to carry 500 vehicles. They would become the principal ships, with the existing Spirits becoming the #2 boats from each terminal. If this plan were followed the third Coastal would become the main boat on route 3.
  
• Route 2 would be served by two Coastals and the Oak Bay.
  
• The Surrey would offer secondary service on both routes 2 &3.
  
• The QNWM could become the main route 9 vessel, but would require double deck berths at Gulf Islands terminals. It would allow a significant capacity increase for route 9, and her superior speed would help to maintain schedules.
  

That concludes my musings for this evening.

[Political Incorrectness]

Jim, I do not see a point on putting another Coastal on Route 1 if you were to put two Super Spirits. I am thinking the same thing of getting two super Spirits and let Route 1 remain the only route to have single ended vessels yet new ones be able to achieve 24 knots. Route 2 I think could have the Queen of Cowichan if a Coastal remains at Route 30 and have the Queen of New Westminster do Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay going via Village Bay and do Route 30 as a third vessel based out of Tsawwassen. Secondly, why spend money to rip out the platforms of the Coquitlam and Cowichan decreasing capacity versus into adding passenger capacity into the Alberni? Also would there be any reason to have a Super C out of Langdale?

[Mirrlees]

Couldn't you imagine a double car decked ferry unloading both decks at Pender Island The GRIDLOCK!!!

[Neil]

If BC Ferries really does decide to throw a whack of cash into making the Queen of New Westminster the Grand Old Lady of the fleet, we might not see any more new major vessels on the south coast until well into the 2020s.

Traffic is increasing very slowly, and continued fare increases will probably keep it that way. The three new Coastals represent a real increase in usable vehicle capacity over the cramped Vs, and their increased speed means that any major vessel will be able to keep up the schedule on all four 'major' routes. The 'Nanaimo and a Bowen Queen type vessel are enough to look after route 9, most of the time- the traffic doesn't justify the size of a bigger boat, or rebuilding the terminals for double deck loading.

The wild card is the truck thing- are they going to take on Seaspan for drop trailers, maybe keep a V around for truck or night service? That's probably the only opportunity for growth, and it might be pretty darned expensive having a big V wasting all the car and passenger capacity just hauling trucks.

[markkarj]

wetcoastkidjst said:

[/li][li]Alternatively build two new 'Super Spirits' for route 1. Perhaps these would be single enders, and designed to carry 500 vehicles. They would become the principal ships, with the existing Spirits becoming the #2 boats from each terminal. If this plan were followed the third Coastal would become the main boat on route 3.
[/quote]

One of the questions I've asked in another section of the forum is why after developing the double-ended C class ships in the 70s and 80s, that BC Ferries chose the single-ended S class ships in the 90s and are now back to the double-ended ships in the 21st century.

I would say that the Spirit class ships are my favorites. I suppose my thoughts on the Super-S class idea would be:

-Why would BC Ferries want to develop yet another class of ships... wouldn't more of a focus on additional Coastal class ships be better in terms of more streamlined crew training, spare parts, interoperability between routes?

-Aside from the summer months, could they fill a 500 car boat on a consistent basis?

-Why choose a single-ended ship when the logistics of turnaround time et al could cut into the schedule?

-The Spirits have both had substantial upgrades recently it would seem. Are they at the point of being placed as secondary vessels?

[Political Incorrectness]

Considering the near cases of MD sailings, having a capacity of at least 500 cars sounds modest to alleviate crowds faster without leaving people behind and large waits during summer, in winter, you would not need friday and sunday saillings during the off season. Some people love their single enders and they can go much faster and it is standardized on a global scale. If you want the Spirits used, might as well relocate them to Route 30 to get the truckers back and forth during refit season. My only question, what the heck to do with all the C class vessels?

[Nucksrule]

BC ferries does not need two new "super s class" ferries. What they do need is a reliable ship that can do extra sailings in the summer, and cover for the other ships during refit season.

I know the first thing that comes to mind is to redo a v class ferry, but I believe it should be a newer ship with good engines and a lot of years left on her.

[Ferryman]

nucksrule said:

...I know the first thing that comes to mind is to redo a v class ferry, but I believe it should be a newer ship with good engines and a lot of years left on her.

You got it, nucksrule. BC Ferries already have plans for the Queen of New Westminster, which is slated to undergo a whopping $46 million upgrade this winter to passenger amenities, and hopefully lots of mechanical upgrades. With $46 million, I'd sure hope there would be alot of mechanical upgrades! This will allow her to take over the Queen of Vancouvers part time position on Route 1 (Tsawwassen to Swartz Bay) by summer of 2008.

[Hardy]

hornbyguy said:

The wild card is the truck thing- are they going to take on Seaspan for drop trailers, maybe keep a V around for truck or night service? That's probably the only opportunity for growth, and it might be pretty darned expensive having a big V wasting all the car and passenger capacity just hauling trucks.

Keep in mind that "Just trucks" are paying about $4.20/foot for the "privledge" of being hauled onboard BCFerries. SeaSpan (Coastal Intermodal) specializes in drop trailers. A lot of cargos and shippers need to send FULL semis (trailer and TRACTOR). Smaller companies do NOT have alliances on the Island to haul their trailers around. Some commodities need to have their original loading driver accompany them. Some shippers own both pieces of equipment and like to keep them both in their possession. A lot of freight also moves on straight trucks (commonly called 5-tons or local delivery trucks). There IS a market, should BCFS choose to go after it.

"Just trucks" generates a lot more revenue per AEQ than cars. Sure you lose a deck of space, but you are still generating a lot of revenue for your MCD. You can also sail with a lot less crew and amenities as you will be carrying less PAX. Close all but one washroom. Run half your cafeteria staff. Don't really need a full gift shop.

If you refit the ferry for truck only, replace some of the seats with more comfy ones, gut the gift shop ... you can save a lot of money by not having the "tourist" oriented services.

[shipchandler]

hardy said:

hornbyguy said:

The wild card is the truck thing- are they going to take on Seaspan for drop trailers, maybe keep a V around for truck or night service? That's probably the only opportunity for growth, and it might be pretty darned expensive having a big V wasting all the car and passenger capacity just hauling trucks.

Keep in mind that "Just trucks" are paying about $4.20/foot for the "privledge" of being hauled onboard BCFerries. SeaSpan (Coastal Intermodal) specializes in drop trailers. A lot of cargos and shippers need to send FULL semis (trailer and TRACTOR). Smaller companies do NOT have alliances on the Island to haul their trailers around. Some commodities need to have their original loading driver accompany them. Some shippers own both pieces of equipment and like to keep them both in their possession. A lot of freight also moves on straight trucks (commonly called 5-tons or local delivery trucks). There IS a market, should BCFS choose to go after it.

"Just trucks" generates a lot more revenue per AEQ than cars. Sure you lose a deck of space, but you are still generating a lot of revenue for your MCD. You can also sail with a lot less crew and amenities as you will be carrying less PAX. Close all but one washroom. Run half your cafeteria staff. Don't really need a full gift shop.

If you refit the ferry for truck only, replace some of the seats with more comfy ones, gut the gift shop ... you can save a lot of money by not having the "tourist" oriented services.

well said hardy, and a lot of people don`t realize that all commercial vehicles pay that premium rate, even small 1-tons because they happen to have a [company] name on the door

[Political Incorrectness]

This is what I was thinking for a replacement to the B's

www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=975698761&size=l

Here is the general arrangment which probably needs to be redone completely.
www.deltamarin.com/references/reference-pictures/NissosMykonos_GA.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

[Neil]

ferrymaniac101 said:

This is what I was thinking for a replacement to the B's

www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=975698761&size=l

Here is the general arrangment which probably needs to be redone completely.
www.deltamarin.com/references/reference-pictures/NissosMykonos_GA.jpg/image_view_fullscreen

That would be nice, but... dream on, I'm afraid.

We're never again going to see single ended ferries on the south coast, and certainly nothing as elaborate as that vessel. I suspect BC Ferries' intentions are to move us to a much more generic looking fleet, and the Bs will probably be replaced by some version of the original Queen of Alberni/ Island Sky hybrid. A service plan of a few years ago talked of six or so classes or sizes of vessels; that's probably the kind of variety we're looking at.

[Mill Bay]

ferrymaniac101 said:

This is what I was thinking for a replacement to the B's

www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=975698761&size=l

We surely don't need anything that big... it might not even fit through Active Pass.

I shudder at the thought of a fleet full of generic cookie-cutter ferries that are more like flat barges with RADs and plastic lego-brick superstructures than anything possessing any real character... like the Castle-in-the-Sky.

-Open-decked with no shelter
-Forces you to get out into the rain if you're not parked right under the deck structure.
-Plain snack-bars instead of real cafeterias.
-Plastic chairs instead of actual lounge chairs.

Interesting that you went with the Greek theme, though. Company for the NorAd I'd expect.

If we were going to import another ferry from Greece, I'd rather have one of these instead. They look pretty modern, but still have some class to their lines as well.
www.faktaomfartyg.se/malita_2002_b_4.htm
www.faktaomfartyg.se/gaudos_2001_b_2.htm
www.faktaomfartyg.se/ta_pinu_2000_b_3.htm

[shipchandler]

millbay said:

ferrymaniac101 said:

This is what I was thinking for a replacement to the B's

www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=975698761&size=l

We surely don't need anything that big... it might not even fit through Active Pass.

I shudder at the thought of a fleet full of generic cookie-cutter ferries that are more like flat barges with RADs and plastic lego-brick superstructures than anything possessing any real character... like the Castle-in-the-Sky.

-Open-decked with no shelter
-Forces you to get out into the rain if you're not parked right under the deck structure.
-Plain snack-bars instead of real cafeterias.
-Plastic chairs instead of actual lounge chairs.

Interesting that you went with the Greek theme, though. Company for the NorAd I'd expect.

If we were going to import another ferry from Greece, I'd rather have one of these instead. They look pretty modern, but still have some class to their lines as well.
www.faktaomfartyg.se/malita_2002_b_4.htm
www.faktaomfartyg.se/gaudos_2001_b_2.htm
www.faktaomfartyg.se/ta_pinu_2000_b_3.htm

YUCK!!! who built that greek thing??? FISHER PRICE.........