D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Dec 14, 2007 7:58:22 GMT -8
A discussion about the whole union/non-union, BC built/foreign built ferries *re-surfaced* in the Coastal Renaissance thread, though everybody decided it wasn't the place to carry on the conversation. I know this has come up repeatedly in various threads, but figured we could use a topic specific thread to discuss this issue. I'm hoping we post links back to some of the other discussions, too, so we can avoid rehashing the issues previously discussed too much. I'll start it off with a CBC story from today about using the import duties from the CR, CI and CC to help rebuild the BC shipbuilding industry. www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2007/12/13/bc-ferry.html
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Post by Northern Exploration on Dec 14, 2007 8:59:10 GMT -8
If the duty is to stand, I would love the idea put forward that it go into colleges/training/scholarships. Everyone talks about the shortage of skilled labour in the industry. Give scholarships to those who may not be able to afford it. Endow Chairs of Marine Studies. Fund research into new technology and innovations for marine applications.
To give large corporations with billionaire owners more subsidies would not be my idea of a good use of taxpayer money. We have been there and done that in the past and it did not work for the long haul. IMHO it is time to be smarter and do something different. There needs to be a solid business case that stands up to scrutiny. Maybe couple this with some tax incentives to innovate and add some unique new capabilities into the ship building industry to grow some specialized nitches.
It is too late to reverse the tide and compete with shipyards in Asia where wages and benefits cannot be matched here. Unless someone pours billions into the industry it is probably too late to compete with Flensburger. So the question becomes what can we do that is unique, that we can be the best at, that will foster an vital industry that isn't reliant on handouts.
I also don't think it should go into any government coffers.
I didn't mean to restart the debate but rather ranted at how disappointed and sick of the merry go round of finger pointing and blame and total lack of action. I think there should be a global warming tax on those who add too much hot air into the atmosphere (on both sides btw).
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Post by queenofcowichan on Dec 14, 2007 11:37:57 GMT -8
I AM disgusted with the Hyprocrates in the shipbuilding industry here. The shipyards have no right to damn the Ferry Company for building off shore when they themselves (WMG who owns Seaspan, and the 2 major shipyards in BC) go off shore to build Barges for thier fleet.
The Coastal Spirit The barge that the Seaspan Challenger pushes between Tilbury and Nanaimo on a daily basis was built in China among other vessles, Gee I wonder Why, Cheaper costs maybe?
These Idiotic Hyprocrates then have the nerve to Cry foul and BC Ferries and demand that they get some of the Import duty. No way I say, as the saying goes Pratice what you preach!
Now I think BC Ferries should pay a little import duty on these ships, Just as you or I would when we cross back into Canada from the US, but they should not pay just to appease the hyprocrates in the shipbuilding Industry.
If the goverment wanted to invest in the shipbuilding industries hear, ie Vancouver and Victoria Shipyards the investment should be attached with a strict condition, Seaspan and other Companys owned by WMG Must build all of thier new vessles, Barges etc hear.
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Post by kylefossett on Dec 14, 2007 14:10:04 GMT -8
just a little note for everybody. 25 years ago FSG was a going broke shipyard. what got them back to how they are today? the government investing money into them.
i myself feel that bc ferries should have to pay the import duty and that import duty should be going directly into improving our shipyards.
seaspan is building barges for themselves offshore, yes. but they are also paying the import duties that the federal government is charging them
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Post by shipchandler on Dec 14, 2007 18:30:38 GMT -8
just a little note for everybody. 25 years ago FSG was a going broke shipyard. what got them back to how they are today? the government investing money into them. i myself feel that bc ferries should have to pay the import duty and that import duty should be going directly into improving our shipyards. seaspan is building barges for themselves offshore, yes. but they are also paying the import duties that the federal government is charging them yeah, i heard that on the news too[about fsg`s subsidies] ,but being that it was uttered by an opponent of offshore ship building i would like to see something more to substantiate it
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Dec 14, 2007 18:32:01 GMT -8
I got an idea, tell WSF you really need orders, we need ferries and we are booked here for a few years. If you can get us some vessels like the Island Home in 14 months. Let us know right away!
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Post by Deep Boat on Dec 14, 2007 22:24:54 GMT -8
I AM disgusted with the Hyprocrates in the shipbuilding industry here. The shipyards have no right to d*** the Ferry Company for building off shore when they themselves (WMG who owns Seaspan, and the 2 major shipyards in BC) go off shore to build Barges for thier fleet. The Coastal Spirit The barge that the Seaspan Challenger pushes between Tilbury and Nanaimo on a daily basis was built in China among other vessles, Gee I wonder Why, Cheaper costs maybe? If the goverment wanted to invest in the shipbuilding industries hear, ie Vancouver and Victoria Shipyards the investment should be attached with a strict condition, Seaspan and other Companys owned by WMG Must build all of thier new vessles, Barges etc hear. Hi ho a little clarity here. The only people making suggestions for how the federal government should spend there collected duties were officials of union organizations they speak for their members interests and not the shipyards, no officials from any WMG company made any comment and that is an important distinction. As to your question about why a company like Seaspan would build offshore rather than in their own yard I would suggest that it is because at those times when this has happened the yard capacity in BC was not available as the yards were building BC ferries, amoungst other vessels. Also timing can weigh in on a decision on where a ship is built as well. So I would argue its not about a cabbotage act for BC like the Jones act that is required but a reasoned policy if a private company wants to build off shore and pay the duties ok fine, and I'm willing to wager that any company that owns a shipyard will build in house if at all possible, and likely timing and capacity would be the only things that would change such a decision. PNWTRAVELER's idea about using the money to fund a chair or better course for enhanced trades is a very good one and would in my opinion be a good directed effort. That kind of thought has come too late for the test tank at UBC, however, that has fallen prey to the lure of real estate development at UBC. So I would argue Queenofcowichan that no one in the press conference reported on was being hypocritical as the people speaking out would not directly receive the investment of duty monies but they would enjoy the benefits of a revitalized industry and I would bet they are not happy to see any company build in yards that their members do not work at.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Dec 14, 2007 23:04:24 GMT -8
yeah, i heard that on the news too[about fsg`s subsidies] ,but being that it was uttered by an opponent of offshore ship building i would like to see something more to substantiate it It's only been since about 2001 that the EEC decided to outlaw subsidies to shipyards; in the past, subsidies and other forms of government relief were very common in European yards, and some of their current efficiency that we all admire so much is due to various forms of overt or covert aid programs. Now it's the Koreans who are the pariahs in the eyes of the European yards, since they act hand in glove with their governments and associated banking interests. European governments recognized the larger, long term benefits in protecting their ship building industries; now those firms are able to stand on their own, for the most part. We chose to stop our federal programs, with predictable results. People seem to find it easy to point the finger of blame at shipyard workers, when I think it would be much more to the point to look at their employers, and successive federal governments. ---------------------------------------------------- From an Industry Canada report on the German shipbuilding industry, 2003: The German shipbuilding industry is currently experiencing difficulties that have led to low production levels and significant downsizing. These difficulties are mainly caused by price dumping strategies of East Asian shipyards, especially by companies from South Korea and China; high ordering levels in previous years, caused by heavy subsidization for the building of new ships by the German government; as well as the downturn in the international tourism industry since September 11, 2001.
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Post by shipchandler on Dec 15, 2007 12:19:38 GMT -8
yeah, i heard that on the news too[about fsg`s subsidies] ,but being that it was uttered by an opponent of offshore ship building i would like to see something more to substantiate it It's only been since about 2001 that the EEC decided to outlaw subsidies to shipyards; in the past, subsidies and other forms of government relief were very common in European yards, and some of their current efficiency that we all admire so much is due to various forms of overt or covert aid programs. Now it's the Koreans who are the pariahs in the eyes of the European yards, since they act hand in glove with their governments and associated banking interests. European governments recognized the larger, long term benefits in protecting their ship building industries; now those firms are able to stand on their own, for the most part. We chose to stop our federal programs, with predictable results. People seem to find it easy to point the finger of blame at shipyard workers, when I think it would be much more to the point to look at their employers, and successive federal governments. ---------------------------------------------------- From an Industry Canada report on the German shipbuilding industry, 2003: The German shipbuilding industry is currently experiencing difficulties that have led to low production levels and significant downsizing. These difficulties are mainly caused by price dumping strategies of East Asian shipyards, especially by companies from South Korea and China; high ordering levels in previous years, caused by heavy subsidization for the building of new ships by the German government; as well as the downturn in the international tourism industry since September 11, 2001.can i get a link to that report?
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Post by DENelson83 on Dec 21, 2007 20:18:03 GMT -8
I'm actually thinking that BC Ferries chose not to involve BC shipyards in the construction of the Super C's because the FastCat scandal left a large black mark on their collective reputation.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 5, 2008 11:17:21 GMT -8
In today's Province, there is a section on the upcoming Vancouver Int'l Boat Show, and on the front page of that section is the line, "SUPPORT BOATING IN B.C. - BUY IN B.C."
The cynics among us will note that the CanWest media was very supportive of the decision to build the Coastals in Germany, and lost no opportunities to tell everyone how uncompetitiuve BC shipbuilders were, and how BC Ferries would be doing taxpayers a disservice by building here.
This seeming incongruity can of course be explained by the fact that BC's major shipyards (still plural?) are not significant advertisers with CanWest, while the smaller marine retailers and builders do help out somewhat with the media giant's bottom line- in the classified section, and with occasional specials such as today's.
It's always good to remember that with organizations like CanWest, news is a product, and how it's presented often depends on the financial interests of the presenter.
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 5, 2008 20:46:11 GMT -8
yes your`e right it was all bctv news ,it was never about cost or quality, by the way neil im still waiting for that link [see above]
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Feb 5, 2008 22:09:14 GMT -8
As I have said many times, if they want shipbuilding projects, let WA state know. We'll pack em up for those guys. We got ship building projects we need to do over the next 20 years. Maintenance moreso so let us know and we'll be sending out boats to you guys. Just get us an exemption of the Jones Act.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 5, 2008 22:57:49 GMT -8
That old news again. Blame the NDP. .... This argument for the C. Ferries not beng built here is getting a bit old. The Shipyard workers together with Peter Julian, MP (NDP) had their time on BCTV when the C. Renaissance arrived. This BC Shipyard Union crying is getting a bit tiring. I guess we're all entitled to get tired of what we want to get tired of. I get a bit tired of the endless fawning on this forum over the wondrous accomplishments of Flensburger, when, after all, they did what they were contracted to do. Once in a while, I don't think it's inappropriate to re-visit the broader issues of the economic and societal aspects of building here or abroad, and how that debate gets reported in the media. Granted, it's not terribly cheery, but I don't think there's any danger that this angle will crowd out the veritable sea of photos and fan accounts of the new vessels elsewhere. Media accounts of 'union crying' have been few, and usually very brief; no more than a footnote to the party hearty welcome for our new ship. Not sure what the workers are supposed to say, in the face of the contraction of their industry, but they certainly have a right to continue to voice their concerns, tiring though it may be. shipchandler- Sorry I neglected to address your question, but I can't give you the link to the piece I quoted above. I got it from an Industry Canada report that I found when googling 'German shipbuilding' or 'European shipbuilding subsidies', or somesuch. It was a direct quote.
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Post by Hardy on Feb 6, 2008 8:14:37 GMT -8
Maintenance moreso so let us know and we'll be sending out boats to you guys. Just get us an exemption of the Jones Act. Does the Jones Act actually cover foreign maintenance of US-owned vessels? I did not think that it did ... ?
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 6, 2008 8:16:43 GMT -8
I agree Paul.
I think the Spirits were very well made and are excellent ships. Had they continued with the modular building and prehaps had Coastal sized versions done next the BC shipbuilding industry would be very different then it is now. However, an industry can't be driven by just these few ships. There would have to be the business case to support it across the board.
I find it interesting that management at WMG hasn't made as many statements about the loss of the Coastal contract. If there are such official statements I would love to see them.
Perhaps it is because they know how busy their refit and new construction business is. If they are turning a decent profit now would investing in large ship contruction prove more lucrative? I think they know the market very clearly and if they thought there would be lots of orders there and good profits then they would be after the business more aggressively. For whatever your opinion of Dennis Washington is, he would not be so successful if he left opportunities for success on the table. If the orders are not there, then no amount of moaning on our part will cause the business to magically appear.
With the caveat that they have yet to be proven in service, and only time will tell, the Coastals are being delivered on time and under budget. I would be very interested in finding out why the Island Sky is late. Also is it on budget? The timing is not very good for the industry to have this happen in contrast with the Coastal experience.
I had people who worked for me who wanted to complain about things and never came up with solutions. I had an open door and they knew they could bring problems to me. Once it was aired I would always ask them to go away and bring me some solutions. There were times some would get totally exasperated because they just wanted to complain. I also knew that if I gave them the what I thought the solution was they would just complain about it. Of course had they contributed to solving something they couldn't complain about it afterwards. Unions, workers, and too many politicians fall into the perpetual complainer category. It is very easy to be a critic and much harder to be a contributor.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 6, 2008 13:16:53 GMT -8
I had people who worked for me who wanted to complain about things and never came up with solutions. I had an open door and they knew they could bring problems to me. Once it was aired I would always ask them to go away and bring me some solutions. There were times some would get totally exasperated because they just wanted to complain. I also knew that if I gave them the what I thought the solution was they would just complain about it. Of course had they contributed to solving something they couldn't complain about it afterwards. Unions, workers, and too many politicians fall into the perpetual complainer category. It is very easy to be a critic and much harder to be a contributor. I always thought it was management's job to manage, or, in a union environment, to solve some issues by a consultative process, in the framework of a collective agreement. If management is going to demand that employees find solutions to concerns that the employees raise, I trust it will be willing to pay them management wages. I think it's very unfair to dismiss unions as 'perpetual complainers', given the loss of jobs, wages, benefits, and security that organized working people having been dealing with in recent times. The shipyard workers union is probably no different than any other in that the vast majority of their time and effort goes into representing workers, dealing with grievances and legal issues, working with management on some issues, and negotiating contracts. Of course, you never hear about that. The only time they make the news is on the occasions when they state their position on overseas building, an issue on which they would be negligent if they didn't speak up. It's not the fault of the union if WMG is happy to avoid any major capital outlay by sticking with repair work and relatively minor newbuilds. The union also cannot influence senior governments in the area of making Canada's yards more competitive, although, in the era of free trade that might be a moot point anyway. Aside from agreeing to work for ten dollars an hour, the union is limited in what they can do to rectify the situation, but they're certainly obliged to keep the argument open, whether people find it tiring or not. Too many jobs are at stake, and you never know what a change in government or shift in corporate attitude might bring.
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Post by EGfleet on Feb 6, 2008 14:32:44 GMT -8
Maintenance moreso so let us know and we'll be sending out boats to you guys. Just get us an exemption of the Jones Act. Does the Jones Act actually cover foreign maintenance of US-owned vessels? I did not think that it did ... ? I don't believe it does. I know WSF has sent work up to Canada in the past. This was quite a while ago, late 1980's I think...and I'm pretty sure it's been mentioned on the board somewhere before. ;D
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 6, 2008 17:33:53 GMT -8
That old news again. Blame the NDP. .... This argument for the C. Ferries not beng built here is getting a bit old. The Shipyard workers together with Peter Julian, MP (NDP) had their time on BCTV when the C. Renaissance arrived. This BC Shipyard Union crying is getting a bit tiring. I guess we're all entitled to get tired of what we want to get tired of. I get a bit tired of the endless fawning on this forum over the wondrous accomplishments of Flensburger, when, after all, they did what they were contracted to do. Once in a while, I don't think it's inappropriate to re-visit the broader issues of the economic and societal aspects of building here or abroad, and how that debate gets reported in the media. Granted, it's not terribly cheery, but I don't think there's any danger that this angle will crowd out the veritable sea of photos and fan accounts of the new vessels elsewhere. Media accounts of 'union crying' have been few, and usually very brief; no more than a footnote to the party hearty welcome for our new ship. Not sure what the workers are supposed to say, in the face of the contraction of their industry, but they certainly have a right to continue to voice their concerns, tiring though it may be. shipchandler- Sorry I neglected to address your question, but I can't give you the link to the piece I quoted above. I got it from an Industry Canada report that I found when googling 'German shipbuilding' or 'European shipbuilding subsidies', or somesuch. It was a direct quote. thats ok neil ,it was a tongue in cheek response anyway,btw i don`t" fawn" over flensburg or FOF as it were, all i do is see with my own eyes a ship that is second to none in car ferries and i don`t care if it was built on the planet neptune ,it doesn`t change the fact that it `s quality is exremely high,which will give us taxpayers some long awaited value for our dollar and we should take it as a wake up call to bring up our[local shipbuilding] game a little and im sure that the b.c. worker is more than up for the challenge and should also be glad they have defenders and champions ,such as your self ,well done neil!!!
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 6, 2008 18:08:44 GMT -8
thats ok neil ,it was a tongue in cheek response anyway,btw i don`t" fawn" over flensburg or FOF as it were, all i do is see with my own eyes a ship that is second to none in car ferries and i don`t care if it was built on the planet neptune ,it doesn`t change the fact that it `s quality is exremely high,which will give us taxpayers some long awaited value for our dollar and we should take it as a wake up call to bring up our[local shipbuilding] game a little and im sure that the b.c. worker is more than up for the challenge and should also be glad they have defenders and champions ,such as your self ,well done neil!!! Mr 'shipchandler' - when you reply to Neil's posts perhaps you could take the same care that he takes with the English language. I am talking here about capitalization, sentence structure, spelling, etc. This forum even comes equipped with a spell checker which you ought to be using as a respect to those who might read your posts. Now to your content... You are declaring that these new ships are "second to none in car ferries" before they have even done even one day of revenue service. Perhaps you can say that in forty-five years when these ferries can boast service record to match that of our BC built and rebuilt V-class. You have also stated this in reference to the new ferries "which will give us taxpayers some long awaited value for our dollar". Are you trying to suggest that we have not received good value on the Spirits, the C class, the V's, B's, Powell River class, etc? Perhaps you recently arrived in BC having had a previous address on "planet neptune". I am awaiting your defense of the statements that you have made above....
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 6, 2008 18:23:50 GMT -8
thats ok neil ,it was a tongue in cheek response anyway,btw i don`t" fawn" over flensburg or FOF as it were, all i do is see with my own eyes a ship that is second to none in car ferries and i don`t care if it was built on the planet neptune ,it doesn`t change the fact that it `s quality is exremely high,which will give us taxpayers some long awaited value for our dollar and we should take it as a wake up call to bring up our[local shipbuilding] game a little and im sure that the b.c. worker is more than up for the challenge and should also be glad they have defenders and champions ,such as your self ,well done neil!!! Mr 'shipchandler' - when you reply to Neil's posts perhaps you could take the same care that he takes with the English language. I am talking here about capitalization, sentence structure, spelling, etc. This forum even comes equipped with a spell checker which you ought to be using as a respect to those who might read your posts. Now to your content... You are declaring that these new ships are "second to none in car ferries" before they have even done even one day of revenue service. Perhaps you can say that in forty-five years when these ferries can boast service record to match that of our BC built and rebuilt V-class. You have also stated this in reference to the new ferries "which will give us taxpayers some long awaited value for our dollar". Are you trying to suggest that we have not received good value on the Spirits, the C class, the V's, B's, Powell River class, etc? Perhaps you recently arrived in BC having had a previous address on "planet neptune". I am awaiting your defense of the statements that you have made above.... sorry no "defence"[who are you to issue such a decree anyway??]or rebuttal will be forthcoming as my command of the english language does not measure up to your exacting standards,I HAVE MENTIONED NUMEROUS TIMES THAT I AM NOT AS COMPUTER SAAVY AS MOST PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM AND NOBODY ELSE HAS COMPLAINED ABOUT MISUNDERSTANDING ME, PERHAPS IF YOU HAD SUFFERED 2HEART ATTACKS AND A STROKE YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND MY TYPING SKILLS OR LACK THEREOF and by the way ,wasn`t it you who ran some other poor young guy off this forum last year because of his diction????what are you the official forum POLICE???respect is something that is earned and you certainly have NOT earned mine so maybe if you wrote something besides angry[well "STRUCTURED"] rants ,you would earn mine....................until then here is my rant at YOU!!!
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Post by Balfour on Feb 6, 2008 19:38:32 GMT -8
I will remind you guys that Debates are encouraged but discussion as per above is not...
Jim, We must consider that not everyone here has a full grasp of the English language, especially in this part of the world where we have a lot of immigrants and considering that this is the internet we do not know the background of everyone here. Therefore I feel that it is important that we do not criticize people's grammar on a forum. I would rather see such comments kept off the forum.
Shipchandler, I understand that you are upset about Jim's comment regarding spelling and grammar, etc... I understand your posts quite well and I always know what you are saying.
I think it's important that we express how we feel when someone has made us upset, however it is also important that we avoid personal attacks such as above.
I'm going to remind everyone that personal attacks and personal criticism are to be left off the forum. The onus is on YOU, the poster to not get into this kind of conversation.
Now back to the debate...
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Post by Mike C on Feb 6, 2008 20:53:26 GMT -8
Alright. I don't like to offer my personal opinion very often on this forum, but I think I can make a slight exception today.
Shipchandler: You have made some very excellent points regarding the ship's quality and not mattering where they are built, I believe the very same. These folks have been in the ship-building industry for well over a century, specifically the Ro-Ro type ferries. The way I see it is that our ship yards are quite capable in building smaller vessels (such as the Island Sky) but do not specify in the large vessel field, whereas Flensburger does.
BC Ferries has made a very good investment.
Jim: I think that if a ferry can make it halfway around the world, I think it can survive revenue service across Georgia Strait 6 or 7 times every day. However: I believe most other ships in our fleet have been excellent investments - but perhaps it's time to give other ship yards a chance. The ship building business isn't the same as it was 15-20 years ago; shipbuilding is a global business now.
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Neil
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Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Feb 6, 2008 22:44:50 GMT -8
Jim, We must consider that not everyone here has a full grasp of the English language, especially in this part of the world where we have a lot of immigrants and considering that this is the internet we do not know the background of everyone here. Therefore I feel that it is important that we do not criticize people's grammar on a forum. I would rather see such comments kept off the forum. This is not aimed at shipchandler, but is meant as a general comment: No one should take someone to task for a spelling error or imperfect grammar, but sometimes it's pretty obvious that there hasn't been five seconds spent on giving a post a semblance of reasonable form, and I don't think that shows much respect for the forum. Speaking up in that case (as more than one mod has been known to do) is probably beneficial for the forum as a whole, and shouldn't be discouraged, as long as it's done without rancour. Michael: British Columbia also has a ship building history of well over a hundred years. We built fourteen BC ferries in a space of a little over six years. You have little worry over foreign yards being 'given a chance' with our major newbuilds; Hahn and company have made it pretty clear that is where all the business is going, if they have their way.
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Post by Hardy on Feb 7, 2008 6:12:25 GMT -8
As long as FSG supplies quality and timeliness in the their newbuilds, then I see no problem in sending the work there. As with any contract, it should be tendered properly, and I believe that we have exhausted whether the Coastals were or not.
Any follow-on contracts should be tendered thru the whole process again - this should give all shipyards, ours, FSG, the Koreans, etc etc an opportunity to bid. Previous experience notwithstanding, the best overall tender should be accepted. That said, however, weight should be given in the criteria for evaluating the tenders to PAST PERFORMANCE. This is where, I think, FSG would gain some additional points over a local shipyard.
Just a quick contrast: FSG kept the media (and us etc) very in-the-loop regarding schedules, delays etc on the Coastals ... as was asked before "What's up the the Island Sky?" Deafening silence so far ... all we know is it's late! Is it on budget? Doubt it ... labour ain't free and if it's late already, that means more labour ...
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