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Post by shipchandler on Feb 7, 2008 19:35:36 GMT -8
I would like to apologize to Neil,Coastal Skier,Wet Coast Kid and anyone else who may have felt uncomfortable reading my thoughts of last night, I was up all night with my new daughter and as such , I wasn`t in the best of moods. I don`t think anyone on this site should have to "squelch"their opinion because it runs contrary to the status quo, But having said that ,it did at points feel a little like a personal attack, So in conclusion I will endeavour in my future posts to be as "structured" and "punctual" as my blue collar I.Q. and partial numbness in my arms will permit, I very much enjoy what EVERYONE has to say, So keep up the good work and thanks.....................S/C
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 7, 2008 19:40:53 GMT -8
As long as FSG supplies quality and timeliness in the their newbuilds, then I see no problem in sending the work there. As with any contract, it should be tendered properly, and I believe that we have exhausted whether the Coastals were or not. Any follow-on contracts should be tendered thru the whole process again - this should give all shipyards, ours, FSG, the Koreans, etc etc an opportunity to bid. Previous experience notwithstanding, the best overall tender should be accepted. That said, however, weight should be given in the criteria for evaluating the tenders to PAST PERFORMANCE. This is where, I think, FSG would gain some additional points over a local shipyard. Just a quick contrast: FSG kept the media (and us etc) very in-the-loop regarding schedules, delays etc on the Coastals ... as was asked before "What's up the the Island Sky?" Deafening silence so far ... all we know is it's late! Is it on budget? Doubt it ... labour ain't free and if it's late already, that means more labour ... I totally agree ,I am actually surprised BCFC hasn`t asked for some promo pics or a public report on her progress
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 7, 2008 20:09:31 GMT -8
I would like to apologize to Neil,Coastal Skier,Wet Coast Kid and anyone else who may have felt uncomfortable reading my thoughts of last night, I was up all night with my new daughter and as such , I wasn`t in the best of moods. I don`t think anyone on this site should have to "squelch"their opinion because it runs contrary to the status quo, But having said that ,it did at points feel a little like a personal attack, So in conclusion I will endeavour in my future posts to be as "structured" and "punctual" as my blue collar I.Q. and partial numbness in my arms will permit, I very much enjoy what EVERYONE has to say, So keep up the good work and thanks.....................S/C speaking just for myself.... I find the occasional flare up kind of entertaining.
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 8, 2008 13:44:03 GMT -8
I would like to apologize to Neil,Coastal Skier,Wet Coast Kid and anyone else who may have felt uncomfortable reading my thoughts of last night, I was up all night with my new daughter and as such , I wasn`t in the best of moods. I don`t think anyone on this site should have to "squelch"their opinion because it runs contrary to the status quo, But having said that ,it did at points feel a little like a personal attack, So in conclusion I will endeavour in my future posts to be as "structured" and "punctual" as my blue collar I.Q. and partial numbness in my arms will permit, I very much enjoy what EVERYONE has to say, So keep up the good work and thanks.....................S/C speaking just for myself.... I find the occasional flare up kind of entertaining. WTF is THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN!!!!!........................[just kidding]
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 8, 2008 13:53:09 GMT -8
Shipchandler how is the little baby Dorey? I take it sleep is in short supply.
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Post by Alex on Feb 8, 2008 15:37:42 GMT -8
shipbuilding is a global business now. The thing that concerns me about this, is that everything is a global business now. If we can't, or don't want to compete with shipbuilding, how long before the remainder of our industries can't compete either? If this becomes a systemic failure in Canada, we could end up as a purely resource economy, with all raw materials shipped elsewhere. Furthermore, if it's such a wonderful global economy, why does the US, the shining light of capitalism, have the Jones Act?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 8, 2008 16:48:27 GMT -8
Because they can, that's why. When you're the top of the heap, you get to determine what's a 'level playing field', and what isn't. And if your opponents roll off, well, it's because their balance isn't so good. Capitalists have a real love/hate relationship with borders. Borders are just fine if they protect the mighty from foreign competition, but if they're kept from plundering foreign economies as they see fit, then they become real internationalists. So, free trade if necessary, but not necessarily free trade.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 8, 2008 18:44:21 GMT -8
So, free trade if necessary, but not necessarily free trade.
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 8, 2008 19:43:18 GMT -8
Shipchandler how is the little baby Dorey? I take it sleep is in short supply. She has been a little colicky of late,But she still sounds her horn frequently between 22:00and 04:30, Thanks for asking........
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 8, 2008 19:48:45 GMT -8
Because they can, that's why. When you're the top of the heap, you get to determine what's a 'level playing field', and what isn't. And if your opponents roll off, well, it's because their balance isn't so good. Capitalists have a real love/hate relationship with borders. Borders are just fine if they protect the mighty from foreign competition, but if they're kept from plundering foreign economies as they see fit, then they become real internationalists. So, free trade if necessary, but not necessarily free trade. Well said, I think you got it in a nutshell.......I take it KING coined that phrase???
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Mill Bay
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Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Feb 9, 2008 12:15:33 GMT -8
Globalization is just a trend... a fad. Haven't you ever heard this before? Some new idea comes out, and everybody who's anybody latches on to it. They sign book deals, the make movies and then a few months later no one can remember seeing the movie or reading the million seller book.
Of course, on the 'global stage', this may play out in a larger time frame, but someday we may well be looking back at globalization through a different lens. As they say, those who don't learn from history...
In this case, this is just the international form of peer pressure. Everyone else is doing it so we'll follow the crowd. Ironically, when Canada first became a federation, we had very similar policies to the Jones Act. John A MacDonald's National Policy, and it was designed to foster Canadian industry, grow our own markets, make our own products, and... protect us from the overwhelming economic 'threat' represented by influence and infiltration into our economy from the U.S.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 9, 2008 23:47:02 GMT -8
Questions for FlugelHorn, re his remarks in the "Save our Ferries" thread.... I'm not sure what exactly it is you're asking the shipyard workers to do. Should they be buying advertising spots, or holding press conferences, trumpeting (or flugelhorning ) their delight at being able to work on the Island Sky? And since when was it the job of unions to do public relations work for construction projects? There seems to be an insinuation in your post that the union should be ready to answer for whatever problems may or may not be happening on the Island Sky project; again, this is something that is more the responsibility of the contractor. Also, if the union did stand up and proudly identify themselves with the ship, how would that have the slightest effect on where the next contract went? Because of the profile of Flensburger, and because one of their employees, either on his own initiative or with the okay of management, has been nice enough to provide us with all sorts of photos and updates on the 'Coastal' project, we seem to have adopted the rather novel notion that shipbuilding is a spectator sport, and yards who don't provide us with a running play by play are perhaps suspect of being antiquated and guilty of substandard work. There also seems to be the conviction on the part of some that the shipyard workers are forever lunging at microphones and reporters, spilling tired 'rhetoric' about lost projects that they probably weren't worthy of anyway- when, actually, I think they've just understandably used the opportunities they've been presented with to argue the case for their livelihoods. As anyone concerned about their industry, and supporting their family, might do. The idea that the union is engaged in some campaign to 'hush up' the Island Sky project in order to downplay the largesse that BC Ferries has graciously besowed upon them sounds a bit odd, and, (dare I say it), rhetorical.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 10, 2008 8:45:59 GMT -8
....What bugs me is that the message that is being delivered (by media when they interview the shipyard union president, and by the SOF website content) is that BC yards aren't getting any of the BC Ferries newbuild work. But they are getting some, and they'll likely get more, of these I-Class sized ships. The media drama of the large ferry newbuilds overshadows the reality of the intermediate newbuilds being done here. And I've added drama to my comments too, to respond to the drama that I've already mentioned. (fight drama with drama). Exaggeration, drama, polarized-position: oops, I'm sounding political.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 10, 2008 10:38:34 GMT -8
Should they be buying advertising spots, or holding press conferences, trumpeting (or flugelhorning ) their delight at being able to work on the Island Sky? And since when was it the job of unions to do public relations work for construction projects? There seems to be an insinuation in your post that the union should be ready to answer for whatever problems may or may not be happening on the Island Sky project; again, this is something that is more the responsibility of the contractor. Also, if the union did stand up and proudly identify themselves with the ship, how would that have the slightest effect on where the next contract went? There also seems to be the conviction on the part of some that the shipyard workers are forever lunging at microphones and reporters, spilling tired 'rhetoric' about lost projects that they probably weren't worthy of anyway- when, actually, I think they've just understandably used the opportunities they've been presented with to argue the case for their livelihoods. As anyone concerned about their industry, and supporting their family, might do. The last part of your quote is exactly why the Union should be making some statements. Positive for a change and not just negative. The results of a recent survey of public opinion towards unions says the unions must do more than just complain after the fact. The portion of the general public who is fed up with politicans negativity (despite the fact is still works) and union moaning is growing significantly. The move to nonpartisanship is poking its head up south of the border in politics and some truly believe it is going to be a major force in who wins the election (rep. or dem.). Watch for this in Canada too. The general public discounts substantially much of what politicians say and even a larger amount what unions say. The only way to combat this is to stop the pattern that is feeding these opinions and start coming back with better PR and self marketing. Just b!itching is not the way. Now if the Island Sky is over budget and behind then I can understand them thinking being quiet is a better strategy. However into the silence will eventually come media attention and commentary. Better to lay the groundwork now than just be reactionary after the damage is done. If WMG is only looking to do intermediate vessels and refits, then all the sourness on part of the union about Flensburger is really towards their company as much as BCFC. Short of government getting into the business of ship building (and we know how effective that has been) then the industry should be absolutely maxing out what they can do, that they do well and can employ a good number of workers to accomplish. With construction paying what they are and the shortage of labour there, I just don't see the finances of attracting the large scale workers necessary to support this type of industry. If real estate slows down, and when the post Olympic financial boom is over for BC, then there maybe more workers available. Time will tell.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 10, 2008 11:36:16 GMT -8
pnw: Generally, I don't trust anyone who says they're 'non-partisan'. It's very fashionable these days for one to say that they're above politics, and they've moved beyond the narrow constructs of left/right, socialist/free enterprise, liberal/conservative, what have you... but scratch a bit below the surface of most 'non-partisans', and I think you'll find the usual share of dogma and bias- they just don't see it that way. Sometimes the evasion of 'brand honesty' can be downright sinister- as with the 'fair and balanced, we report you decide' scoundrels at Fox News. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on society's direction in that regard.
On the question of the government being involved in ship building, actually, other than the fastcats, in BC it's been very effective. A whole fleet built here, and built to last. Remember, eighteen years ago even the celebrated Flensburger was bankrupt. Where there's a will, there's a way.
p.s. to shipchandler- What is 'Thornburg'?
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 10, 2008 12:28:07 GMT -8
Yes, I remember Vancouver city council - the 'Non-partisan' Association (NPA) versus the Committee of Progressive Electors (COPE). These have served as 'farm teams' for the provincial Socred/BC Liberal and NDP parties.
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Post by herrbrinkmann on Feb 10, 2008 12:44:07 GMT -8
...Remember, eighteen years ago even the celebrated Flensburger was bankrupt. Where there's a will, there's a way. ? Not Flensburger was bancrupt, the owner of Flensburger at this time was bancrupt.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 10, 2008 12:57:16 GMT -8
I don't mean non-partisan as meaning without conviction or without beliefs. Or on the other hand milktoast people who don't care.
I am tired of people who aren't capable of compromise and make things happen. Too much time and energy is wasted by short term grandstanding rather than moving ahead. If more energy was actually directed to accomplishing things we would have a very different Canada that is even better than it is. Good things get shelved by people commiting too much energy to opposing and not enough spent doing.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 10, 2008 14:59:00 GMT -8
p.s. to shipchandler- What is 'Thornburg'? I was wondering about the "Thornburg" name too. Is that 'Chandler's nickname for Neil?
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 10, 2008 18:22:29 GMT -8
pnw: Generally, I don't trust anyone who says they're 'non-partisan'. It's very fashionable these days for one to say that they're above politics, and they've moved beyond the narrow constructs of left/right, socialist/free enterprise, liberal/conservative, what have you... but scratch a bit below the surface of most 'non-partisans', and I think you'll find the usual share of dogma and bias- they just don't see it that way. Sometimes the evasion of 'brand honesty' can be downright sinister- as with the 'fair and balanced, we report you decide' scoundrels at Fox News. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on society's direction in that regard. On the question of the government being involved in ship building, actually, other than the fastcats, in BC it's been very effective. A whole fleet built here, and built to last. Remember, eighteen years ago even the celebrated Flensburger was bankrupt. Where there's a will, there's a way. p.s. to shipchandler- What is 'Thornburg'? Can you give me a quote or a context Neil?? I don`t recall writing that name?? .JEEZ I am losing it huh??
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Post by DENelson83 on Feb 10, 2008 19:04:00 GMT -8
pnw: Generally, I don't trust anyone who says they're 'non-partisan'. It's very fashionable these days for one to say that they're above politics, and they've moved beyond the narrow constructs of left/right, socialist/free enterprise, liberal/conservative, what have you... but scratch a bit below the surface of most 'non-partisans', and I think you'll find the usual share of dogma and bias- they just don't see it that way. Sometimes the evasion of 'brand honesty' can be downright sinister- as with the 'fair and balanced, we report you decide' scoundrels at Fox News. So, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on society's direction in that regard. On the question of the government being involved in ship building, actually, other than the fastcats, in BC it's been very effective. A whole fleet built here, and built to last. Remember, eighteen years ago even the celebrated Flensburger was bankrupt. Where there's a will, there's a way. p.s. to shipchandler- What is 'Thornburg'? Can you give me a quote or a context Neil?? I don`t recall writing that name?? .JEEZ I am losing it huh?? You called Neil "Thornburg" in this post.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 10, 2008 19:36:00 GMT -8
Go easy on Ship he is suffering from toxic shock from the fumes and exhaust from his new little launch. Not to mention working the night shift when we all are sleeping. ;D
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 11, 2008 6:05:25 GMT -8
Can you give me a quote or a context Neil?? I don`t recall writing that name?? .JEEZ I am losing it huh?? You called Neil "Thornburg" in this post.Nope ,sorry it wasn`t me, I just hit the quote button on Neil`s post ,perhaps "thornburg" is another forum member???
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 19, 2008 13:27:53 GMT -8
(Continuing from the 'Island Sky' thread...)
pnw: I suppose we could have an exchange where one person cites what he feels are examples of union inflexibility, and another counters with examples of union flexibility, but I'm not sure what that would accomplish.
The specific issue here (although 'specific' is perhaps the wrong word, given the vagueness of the allegations) is that some people feel the shipworkers' union is doing something, or not doing something, or saying something, or not saying something, which is impairing the progress or at least the image, of the Island Sky project, and which is somehow creating a generally unfavorable climate for shipbuilding in B.C.
No one really has any specifics, aside from some mostly generic comments about unions and how they voice their concerns, so countering the argument is a bit like the proverbial attempt to nail jello to the wall.
I would think that we're trying to think of constructive things that are actually in the union's power to do to advance shipbuilding, and which are actually in their interest to do. Let me get the ball rolling and suggest four things that we can probably take off the table right away.
1. Open their own shipyard. Despite the popular fiction about big rich powerful union bosses, they're not that rich.
2. Recruit work for WMG.
3. Open their own public relations firm. As if a hearty "Three cheers for the Island Sky" campaign would win them any more work from David Hahn.
4. Agree to work for WalMart 'associate' wages.
Since no one has been able to substantiate otherwise, I'll assume that shipyard workers have been beavering away conscientiously on the Island Sky, as it's obviously in their interest to have that project completed successfully. They've voiced their concerns about loss of work to overseas yards. Being ever the incurable optimist, I'll continue to hope that someone can come up with something specific to give these allegations of union obtuseness some substance.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 19, 2008 15:32:05 GMT -8
Since no one has been able to substantiate otherwise, I'll assume that shipyard workers have been beavering away conscientiously on the Island Sky, as it's obviously in their interest to have that project completed successfully. I'd have to agree completely with you on this. I would suspect the delays being speculated about are more likely due to labour shortages, which have been cited as a problem, and the cost over-runs are a result of increased steel prices, which have been a real problem for many industries, especially if WMG wasn't able to lock in pricing on all their materials when they received their contract. Without knowing the details of the contract, we don't know if they gave the same steel concession FSG did. I would doubt it. Of these two items, one could blame labour shortages on the union...but I think one would have to be more inclined to blame the booming construction market, and the government, and the population in general. Why? Because people don't seem to want to do physical labour anymore...the trades are having a much more difficult time getting apprentices these days. Because the government wants the publicity and recognition in the form of the Olympics, thus requiring more iron-workers. Because everyone wants a bigger house, and more gadgets which require more retail space, again with the need for iron-workers. I like that image. ;D If you did it with a nail gun, would it be jello shots? The counter to this is, they could lobby to have a crown corporation formed to revitalize one or more of the existing yards...before these yards end up under the above mentioned retail space and housing. Though it might be in their best interest! You are right on here, PR, or lack there of, for the Island Sky is WMG own doing. From reading some of the posts in the Island Sky thread, I get the impression WMG would not be to pleased by someone providing similar insight into their company as we get from Markus. I think the union hands are tied when it comes to highlighting some of the issues and achievements with the build. You are right, that would be absurd, but providing pinpoint from a fund dedicated to job retention is a common practice for unions. Plus, if the union was able to lobby for a crown corp that either ran its own yard, or managed a group of existing yards, there maybe an opportunity for profit sharing which could be used to supplement the pinpoint fund, thus allowing the union to be more competitive.
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