D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 19, 2008 15:34:54 GMT -8
Nope ,sorry it wasn`t me, I just hit the quote button on Neil`s post ,perhaps "thornburg" is another forum member??? I just quoted Neil and realized that "Thornburg" is the suggested correction by the spell checker for "hornbyguy", Neil's alter ego. ;D
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 19, 2008 17:10:36 GMT -8
We aren't privy to the tender process. However, based upon public statements made by BCFC and open to being refuted, and the scuttlebutt that has gone on privately and publically, WMG did not really go after the Coastals Ferry contract. There could be a few reasons for this. Submitting bids can be time consuming and costly.
1. They couldn't match the guarantees that were provided by the three yards that were finalists. Shortage of workers and/or a lack of facilities could be two of many reasons why they weren't able to match. 2. They couldn't access steel at the same price or any other reasons that made them not competitive cost wise. WMG knew this and didn't really try. Their response couldn't be considered a full bid. 3. They were busy enough and couldn't take on the project. 4. They felt they had no chance at all of winning and hence chose to not bid.
So except for the 4th one, the union has issues with the company not BCFC despite the retoric. BCFC was just following good corporate policies by tendering and going with the bid best deemed to suit the tender. So this indeed becomes a political question because you can't have BCFC a quasi private company and saddle them with buying local at all costs.
Federal, provincial and local governments, all probably have a role in this then. Shipbuilding is not a issue that cuts across the whole province such as heathcare, education and job creation. Since BC is continually running job fairs here in Toronto I don't think a lack of jobs is the problem in the province. So what is the solution? What program gets cut to fund an injection into the arm of the shipbuilding industry? Do taxes rise to fund this impacting the ecomonics of the whole province?
Having direct experience with two Crown Corporations I certainly am not in favour of restablishing any of them because they are so prone to meddling and tyically poorly done. My father worked under the auditor general on contract for a period and the difference in mentality among crown companies/government bodies and the business world was mind boggling. Government does a horrendous job of running businesses and should only do so in extra ordinary circumstance when national interest demands. A massive collapse of the oil or lumber industry that would impact huge swaths of Canadian life may be examples but it is hard to comprehend it happening.
If you are a government entity and you know you have a captive customer base (BC Ferries, and goverment contracts), what is the incentive to be world class, efficient, and a good value to the taxpayer. If you are younger than maybe you don't remember some of the crown corporations that are no longer around and we certainly don't want back. Air Canada is one example.
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 19, 2008 18:33:11 GMT -8
How can work and jobs go anywhere but offshore?, we live in a global market where absolutely no one has any sense of "fairplay".I think it sucks Neil ,But there it is , Maybe we need to vote in some protectionist public servants, Who can bring in some tariffs that make sense to our workers.[Remember i am one of them too....albeit , in a different field but no less vulnerable]
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 19, 2008 19:03:01 GMT -8
...I would think that we're trying to think of constructive things that are actually in the union's power to do to advance shipbuilding, and which are actually in their interest to do. Let me get the ball rolling and suggest four things that we can probably take off the table right away. 1. Open their own shipyard. Despite the popular fiction about big rich powerful union bosses, they're not that rich. 2. Recruit work for WMG. 3. Open their own public relations firm. As if a hearty "Three cheers for the Island Sky" campaign would win them any more work from David Hahn. 4. Agree to work for WalMart 'associate' wages. - Get involved in the various trade-schools recruitment for students, to promote skilled-trades as a career. (this is likely already being done). - Get involved in the trade-school programs re existing students, to mentor the students on issues such as workplace relations, job safety etc. (ie. those issues that unions traditionally advocate for their workers on the job-site). ie. to educate the students on the differences between union & non-union shops and the common workplace issues for the new workers to expect. The above 2 items deal with the "supply" aspect of shipbuilding capacity; re the supply of a skilled labour pool; mainly by attracting students to the shipbuilding workforce. This would likely be the Union's primary involvement, as without workers there would be no work done on shipbuilding in BC. Now, re "demand", that's a different situation. I suppose the Union could advocate (through channels such as the media) for more shipbuilding contracts. And I guess that the Super-C contracts would be a good example of something that the Union would need to advocate for. .....and I guess my logic has just painted me into a corner of now contradicting my earlier comments/viewpoints on this issue re McPherson and sour-grapes. Darn it Neil, you had to introduce a logical thought process to this issue, and I actually followed it and was surprised where it took me. Also, what I would want to hear the Union say re this demand issue, is something like "Look what we have done and are doing now, and give us more of this" (re past history of V's, B's, C's etc, and current history of Cappie/Spirit/Century/"I"). And I suppose that's what the SOF website is saying; that the local shipyard have done the work before, and they want to do it again. -------------- ps: does anyone know a good condiment to go with roast crow?
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Post by shipchandler on Feb 19, 2008 22:29:49 GMT -8
I know one thing for sure, they better start designing one that runs on an alternate fuel, because we are going to need it......................soon.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 20, 2008 5:05:01 GMT -8
Having direct experience with two Crown Corporations I certainly am not in favour of restablishing any of them because they are so prone to meddling and tyically poorly done. My father worked under the auditor general on contract for a period and the difference in mentality among crown companies/government bodies and the business world was mind boggling. Government does a horrendous job of running businesses and should only do so in extra ordinary circumstance when national interest demands. A massive collapse of the oil or lumber industry that would impact huge swaths of Canadian life may be examples but it is hard to comprehend it happening. If you are a government entity and you know you have a captive customer base (BC Ferries, and goverment contracts), what is the incentive to be world class, efficient, and a good value to the taxpayer. If you are younger than maybe you don't remember some of the crown corporations that are no longer around and we certainly don't want back. Air Canada is one example. Okay, you make a valid point. So a crown corp probably isn't such a hot idea, but I think the basic premise of having an entity...i.e. a board of directors...preferably staffed by both the business world and key union officials, whose role is to guide and advance Vancouver's ship construction and servicing industry, could work. If this is done as a method of increasing competitiveness in the world market, and not as a method of servicing captive clients, it is a sound consideration. Of course this would require the cooperation of the various shipyards, but this has be shown to work in the past, and would be a good starting model for a future coalition.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Feb 20, 2008 6:29:58 GMT -8
This type of board may make sense as long as it is free from political bias and interference.
To break back into the market I think they would have to do something unique and game changing. Shipyard and workers tied to some sort of delivery/performance based compensation. Deliver early - get a extra generous bonus, deliver on time get regular pay plus a performance bonus, deliver late forgo any bonus, all assuming a lower hourly wage to make the shipyard attractive. What can we produce that no one else is producing.
Flensburger obviously hedged their steel and bought some in bulk before the latest rounds of price increases. Similar to airlines hedging their fuel supplies. This is hard to do without some consistant orders for a new entity starting up.
Another question is do we require the shipyard to buy Canadian? To support re-establishing an industry doesn't make sense if there isn't value added by supporting other Canadian workers. Therefore it supports the steel workers in other provinces. Seems counter productive to buy Canadian ships made with Brazilian or Korean Steel. I believe but am open to correction that Canadian Steel can be more expensive. If we go down this road where do we no longer become competitive price wise.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Feb 20, 2008 11:26:13 GMT -8
To break back into the market I think they would have to do something unique and game changing. Shipyard and workers tied to some sort of delivery/performance based compensation. Deliver early - get a extra generous bonus, deliver on time get regular pay plus a performance bonus, deliver late forgo any bonus, all assuming a lower hourly wage to make the shipyard attractive. What can we produce that no one else is producing. Yes, exactly what I personally would like to see, though the performance bonuses may be better implemented as a form of employee profit sharing which has proved successful in the past in other industries. Of course, the employee is taking a risk in this as labour cost may come in under-budget while materials are over...something that would have to be addressed. The use of pinpointing would allow for lower wages to be offered when pricing the job while not affecting the workers' wages. The pain of the wage loss is spread over the entire union membership using a dedicated deduction implemented in their union dues. So the iron-workers involved in the Olympics construction help to keep their brethren in the shipyards gainfully employed, and possibly vice versa should my proposed coalition prove to be successful.
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Post by Rod Smelser on Apr 22, 2008 10:36:35 GMT -8
I'm actually thinking that BC Ferries chose not to involve BC shipyards in the construction of the Super C's because the FastCat scandal left a large black mark on their collective reputation. That's one theory. Mine is that the BC Liberal Govt doesn't like Kyle Washington because he won't kick into the party slush fund. Has anyone given any consideration to renaming the three Flensburg boats as Bismarck, Tirpitz and Scharnhorst? Or how about Otto Von Bismarck, Premier Campbell and President Hahn, so that Canadian taxpayers who sail on these ships will be forever reminded of where their money went and who sent it there.
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Post by guest hidden on Apr 22, 2008 13:48:54 GMT -8
There are no slanted view points in the above comment...right, this whole thing is a conspiracy the germans didn't win world war 2 and they are mad and taking are money for a consumer good. YOU can't live in a free market and expect the government to protect every nook and cranny of our economy...sometimes it's up to us to adapt and overcome... Edited to remove personal attack
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Apr 22, 2008 14:38:41 GMT -8
There are no slanted view points in the above comment...right, this whole thing is a conspiracy the germans didn't win world war 2 and they are mad and taking are money for a consumer good. YOU can't live in a free market and expect the government to protect every nook and cranny of our economy...sometimes it's up to us to adapt and overcome...get your head out of the sand you old ostrich. Well, don't remain hidden as a guest. Try expressing those ideas out loud, maybe . This isn't a small nook or cranny we're talking about. This is hundreds of millions of dollars now and, when you get right down to it, the government would have a lot less money to mess around with anyway if it wasn't for the general population from whom they generate revenue by taxation. (This is basic economics) It's not their money, it's ours and they should well be trying to protect it: that's what their job is.
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Post by cohocatcher on Apr 22, 2008 20:32:06 GMT -8
I'm actually thinking that BC Ferries chose not to involve BC shipyards in the construction of the Super C's because the FastCat scandal left a large black mark on their collective reputation. That's one theory. Mine is that the BC Liberal Govt doesn't like Kyle Washington because he won't kick into the party slush fund. Has anyone given any consideration to renaming the three Flensburg boats as Bismarck, Tirpitz and Scharnhorst? Or how about Otto Von Bismarck, Premier Campbell and President Hahn, so that Canadian taxpayers who sail on these ships will be forever reminded of where their money went and who sent it there. How about some new names for the fast cats. ;D
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Apr 23, 2008 4:45:12 GMT -8
That's one theory. Mine is that the BC Liberal Govt doesn't like Kyle Washington because he won't kick into the party slush fund. Has anyone given any consideration to renaming the three Flensburg boats as Bismarck, Tirpitz and Scharnhorst? Or how about Otto Von Bismarck, Premier Campbell and President Hahn, so that Canadian taxpayers who sail on these ships will be forever reminded of where their money went and who sent it there. How about some new names for the fast cats. ;D Oops, Oh No , and Ahh D*mn ;D
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Post by Rod Smelser on Apr 28, 2008 11:02:50 GMT -8
How about some new names for the fast cats. ;D That would be up to Kyle Washington since they're his property now. No one has satisfied me that there were any real operational problems with these vessels. They got a bad press because that was the news agenda of the time, anything to help get rid of a government they just didn't like. If you're genuinely worried about any government project that has a cost overrun, what's your proposed new name for the Vancouver Convention and Exhibition Centre? How about the Taylor-Dobell Centre in honour of Carol Taylor and Ken Dobell? I wonder if ferries that operate on the East Coast of Canada have ever been built outside of Canada? Certainly no Canadian Coast Guard or naval vessel has been, at least since the 1950s, even if it could have been done that way "more cheaply".
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Post by doctorcad on Apr 28, 2008 14:14:31 GMT -8
The cost overruns and delays are largely a result of poor planning on behalf of Vancouver Shipyards management. As a result the Shipyard president has been canned.
Blame the union for failing to invest in apprenticeship programs, but not for the island sky delays and overruns.
As for competition in the shipbuilding industry, take a look at the government subsidies available in Europe and tell me it's a level playing field. Canada has to wake up if we wish to remain competitive in ANY industry...
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Post by herrbrinkmann on Apr 28, 2008 21:08:47 GMT -8
The cost overruns and delays are largely a result of poor planning on behalf of Vancouver Shipyards management. As a result the Shipyard president has been canned. Blame the union for failing to invest in apprenticeship programs, but not for the island sky delays and overruns. As for competition in the shipbuilding industry, take a look at the government subsidies available in Europe and tell me it's a level playing field. Canada has to wake up if we wish to remain competitive in ANY industry... I do not know, where all the stories about subsidies are coming from. There have been subsidies but now you might only get subsidies for building container vessels. The only thing you can get is an "innovative credit" meaning that you propose something new, you are funded to research in this area and when you have used your invention in a product and it works, you have to payback the funding. That is the only subsidy you get. Nothing more.
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Post by doctorcad on Apr 29, 2008 8:25:34 GMT -8
The cost overruns and delays are largely a result of poor planning on behalf of Vancouver Shipyards management. As a result the Shipyard president has been canned. Blame the union for failing to invest in apprenticeship programs, but not for the island sky delays and overruns. As for competition in the shipbuilding industry, take a look at the government subsidies available in Europe and tell me it's a level playing field. Canada has to wake up if we wish to remain competitive in ANY industry... I do not know, where all the stories about subsidies are coming from. There have been subsidies but now you might only get subsidies for building container vessels. The only thing you can get is an "innovative credit" meaning that you propose something new, you are funded to research in this area and when you have used your invention in a product and it works, you have to payback the funding. That is the only subsidy you get. Nothing more. Mr Brinkmann it is a pleasure. I am impressed that you take time to participate in these discussions and appreciate your response. To address your comment, bear in mind that Canadian shipyards have not been granted subsidies sine the early 80's, as result of agreements signed by OECD gov'ts between 1969 and 1976 (ref1.) Although subject to the same agreements, EU nations continued handing out direct subsidies until December 2000 (ref2.) That period constitutes a significant head start for the European yards. It's not that I am bitter about the new BC Ferries ships being built in Germany. It was clearly a good decision for BC Ferries, even with the 25% trade barrier in place. I am somewhat bitter at Canadian society for allowing globalization to whittle away at the industrial sectors of our economy. Trade barriers are not an effective way to stimulate growth. We have to invest in training programs and provide financial support for our industry to remain competitive. On another note, it is plain to see that tradespeople in many European countries are respected for their differentiated skills. Here, tradespeople are often looked down upon and considered by many as unskilled blue collar workers. This perception has a profound impact on government policy. Kudos to Germany and the rest of the EU for their proactive attitude and policy, lets hope you don't fall into the same trap we have in the future. Ref 1: www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst;jsessionid=LXFLSDxnZyjJTKMMQfPqlW4kYLcxGwLcLzG82WcgBd1qjDBpsyh5!-408051029?docId=98557809 Ref 2: www.europarl.europa.eu/facts/4_7_3_en.htm
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Post by Guest 1 on Apr 29, 2008 9:48:59 GMT -8
A subsidy in America is called a Grant ?
April 25 2008 Marad announces $9.8 million in shipyard grants The U.S. Maritime Administration yesterday announced $9.8 million in grants to 19 small shipyards in the United States. The grants are part of the new Assistance to Small Shipyards program, set up under the FY 2006 National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2006. "Small shipyards are vitally important for the health of the maritime industry, and for the economy of the Nation," said Maritime Administrator Sean T. Connaughton. The purpose of the grants is to make capital and infrastructure improvements that facilitate the efficiency, cost-effectiveness and quality of domestic ship construction, conversion or repair for commercial and federal government use. The grants cover a maximum of 75 percent of the estimated cost of improvements. The companies are responsible for the remainder.
SHIPYARD AMOUNT PURPOSE Alaska Ship and Drydock , Ketchikan, Alaska $615,805 upgrade its metal equipment, machine shop, and painting equipment. All American Marine, Inc., Bellingham, Washington $285,000 acquisition of metal cutting machinery and boat transfer equipment. Brownsville Marine Products, LLC, Brownsville, Pennsylvania $532,226 hydraulic buggies, winches, mobile crane, jib and overhead cranes. Colonna's Shipyard, Norfolk, Virginia, $825,000 1,000-ton travelift. Conrad Shipyard, LLC, Morgan City, Louisiana $648,648 welding equipment and a range of tools. Derecktor Shipyards Conn., LLC, Bridgeport, Connecticut $863,515 welding tank, welding machines, air casters, and hydraulic bender. Duclos Corporation, Somerset, Massachusetts $628,300 railway assembly, upgrading and extending capacity of railway and dock extension. Eastern Shipbuilding Group, Panama City, Florida $436,274 metal cutting equipment and a computer system. Everett Shipyard, Inc., Everett, Washington $297,036 work stations and an overhead crane. Great Lakes Shipyard, Cleveland, Ohio $546,000 80-ton mobile crane, a man lift and automated welding equipment. Gulf Marine Repair Corp., Tampa, Florida $487,630 four cranes, two electric plate rollers, and other manufacturing equipment. Horizon Shipbuilding, Inc., Bayou La Batre, Alabama $277,500 computerized plasma cutting table used to cut metal according to ship construction drawings and specifications. Leevac Shipyards, LLC, Jennings, Louisiana, $66,068 software to expand its engineering capability. Master Marine, Bayou La Batre, Alabama, $450,000 travelift. Pacific Shipyards International, LLC, Honolulu, Hawaii $869,977 water blast system and a mobile crane. R&R Marine Shipbuilding , Port Arthur, Texas $400,000 acquisition and installation of a stiffener fitting gantry, facility electrical upgrades and the cost to install a panel line fabrication facility. Safe Boats, Port Orchard, Washington $579,084 acquisition and installation of router tables, information technology system upgrades and other machinery and equipment. Todd Shipyards Corporation, Seattle, Washington $358,515 enlarge and renovate main assembly building. Washburn & Doughty Associates, East Boothbay, Maine $633,422 acquisition and installation of pipe benders, inverter welding machines, hydraulic press brake, plus other equipment and machinery.
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Mill Bay
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Post by Mill Bay on Apr 29, 2008 21:20:03 GMT -8
The cost overruns and delays are largely a result of poor planning on behalf of Vancouver Shipyards management. As a result the Shipyard president has been canned. Blame the union for failing to invest in apprenticeship programs, but not for the island sky delays and overruns. As for competition in the shipbuilding industry, take a look at the government subsidies available in Europe and tell me it's a level playing field. Canada has to wake up if we wish to remain competitive in ANY industry... I do not know, where all the stories about subsidies are coming from. There have been subsidies but now you might only get subsidies for building container vessels. The only thing you can get is an "innovative credit" meaning that you propose something new, you are funded to research in this area and when you have used your invention in a product and it works, you have to payback the funding. That is the only subsidy you get. Nothing more. Markus, thanks for making this point for us... We all need a dose of reality from time to time. (At the least, you saved me from going on a meaningless political rant.) I'm just wondering, I'm not sure if it has been explained before or not, but aside from the fact that Flensburger is clearly fully modern and state of the art in its production processes, what else does it do that makes it more favorable on the international stage? Are there any particular marketing or recruiting strategies that FSG employs to maintain its level of quality and expertise? Without direct subsidies, what particular methods are used to keep profits up and costs down? And is FSG comparable to the shipbuilding sector in the rest of Germany in terms of skills, employment, wages, etc.? Is the shipbuilding industry as a whole highly regarded in Germany with highly skilled and valued workers, or does Flensburger hold a crucial corner of the market all on its own?
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Post by herrbrinkmann on Apr 30, 2008 4:41:59 GMT -8
I personally think what makes Flensburger so special is its continuous investment in research and development. In opposite to all other yards in Germany FSG kept his high number of employees in the technical and research sector. Many shipyards fired their naval architects as they went into series shipbuilding and were outsourcing their development. This means, when they want to offer a new vessel, they have to approach a design office for computational fluid dynamics, for strengths and vibration calculations and so on. At FSG all this know-how is kept in house and we continuously implement our "lessons-learned" in our newbuildings. The same goes for the detailed design. It is common, that shipyards do the initial design and buy the detail design in "cheap" countries. Then the detail design is not specific for the yard (even if acc. to yard standards). We do (nearly) all the detail design in house and every designer knows the special conditions at our yard. So the detail design completely fits our building strategy. The last thing is, that we are a relatively small shipyard and every customer is exclusive to us. He gets the best "care" and we solve his problems together. So he can get the best product for his special route. Re our workers. We have close to zero fluctuation, so we have a lot workers that are here for 10, 20 or even 40 years. This knowledge they have gained is not available on the free market. That´s why a "hire or fire"policy does not pay at FSG. (and we are all terribly nice people :-) )
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Post by Northern Exploration on Apr 30, 2008 6:44:11 GMT -8
Well Markus your "friendliness" and helpfulness to this forum is appreciated, and if you are any indication of the general FSG person it would be a great place to work. I tease my friend who works for Storch that FSG people are better ambassadors to Germany than the candy makers despite that they are around sugar all day so should be sweeter. They however are more popular among dentists for the work the candy generates for them .
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D'Elete BC in NJ
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Apr 30, 2008 7:26:15 GMT -8
Unless, of course, one takes to nibbling at the stair railings or exposed corners... ;D
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Post by Northern Exploration on Apr 30, 2008 15:11:58 GMT -8
Well hard on the teeth but your iron content will be nice and high .
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Post by Rod Smelser on May 6, 2008 14:26:55 GMT -8
Thanks doctorcad for providing some actual information. I found the second link a bit quirky, but once I got there I read the following: I am thinking that this relates to the point about subsidies being limited to container ships. But if a yard's work on one type of project is subsidized, does that not provide it with the background income and investment needed to be "competitive" on other projects? The reason for the federal 25% tariff is to counter subsidies in other nations. If all the other nations have really sworn off subsidies, why does the ship importation tariff still apply?
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Post by shipchandler on May 13, 2008 13:19:16 GMT -8
There are no slanted view points in the above comment...right, this whole thing is a conspiracy the germans didn't win world war 2 and they are mad and taking are money for a consumer good. YOU can't live in a free market and expect the government to protect every nook and cranny of our economy...sometimes it's up to us to adapt and overcome...get your head out of the sand you old ostrich. Well, don't remain hidden as a guest. Try expressing those ideas out loud, maybe . This isn't a small nook or cranny we're talking about. This is hundreds of millions of dollars now and, when you get right down to it, the government would have a lot less money to mess around with anyway if it wasn't for the general population from whom they generate revenue by taxation. (This is basic economics) It's not their money, it's ours and they should well be trying to protect it: that's what their job is. yeah , i agree with Mill Bay ,don`t hide ,put up your post and stand behind it , don`t be afraid of a few personal attacks ,most of us [on the forum] live to correct people and have suffered our share of flak over our views[and punctuation] but :-[so what?? that`s why your here ,right?
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