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Post by Retrovision on May 4, 2007 16:24:44 GMT -8
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Post by queenofcowichan on May 4, 2007 16:35:12 GMT -8
Not suprised
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 4, 2007 18:13:51 GMT -8
It would have been pretty astonishing if, in the end, BC Ferries hadn't fired the three, given management's adamant psition that crew error alone was to blame for the sinking.
Karen Bricker told CTV that she will be making a public statement soon.
With the TSB report out soon, and maybe something from the RCMP, not to mention possible court action on the firings, the public will finally probably get some answers as this thing wends it's inexorable course.
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 5, 2007 16:11:13 GMT -8
cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/05/05/4156594-cp.htmlB.C. ferry union will defend fired crew members By SCOTT SUTHERLAND VICTORIA (CP) - The president of the union representing three recently fired B.C. Ferries workers at the centre of the Queen of the North sinking in March 2006 is vowing to defend her members. Jackie Miller, head of the 4,000 member B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers' Union, has told The Canadian Press a letter has been sent to the publicly-owned, privately managed corporation advising officials of the intent to grieve, or appeal, the dismissals. "Absolutely we are grieving. We've sent letter to the employer," Miller said in an interview from her home Saturday. "We are going through the process to defend our members." However, Miller was reluctant to go any further in her comments for fear of jeopardizing the grievance process. The two men and a woman were informed of their dismissals by letter in mid-April, several weeks after the release of the ferry corporation's own report into the wreck of the 37-year-old former flagship of the fleet. "Three employees at the centre of the investigation have been terminated," B.C. Ferries spokesman Mark Stefanson said. "It was as a direct result of our investigation." He said the ferryworkers' union has the right to grieve the dismissals and the individual employees can also appeal the company's move. Canadian Press was told B.C. Ferries' president and CEO David Hahn was not commenting Saturday. A spokesman for B.C. Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon said he, too, would be unavailable to comment on the terminations over the weekend. Ninety-nine crew and passengers escaped from the Queen of the North, but two B.C. residents were never located and are presumed to have drowned in the mishap. It took just a little over an hour for the vessel to sink after it struck Gil Island at cruising speed, roughly 30 kilometres an hour, ripping open the hull plating along the starboard side at the waterline. The wreck, with an unknown quantity of fuel still in its eight tanks, now sits in more than 450 metres of water, posing an environmental threat to that portion of B.C.'s famed Inside Passage. B.C. Ferries' internal investigation concluded "human factors were the primary cause" of the sinking of the ferry, which failed to make a crucial course change and steamed into an unmarked island in poor weather about four hours after leaving Prince Rupert on a scheduled southbound voyage. While never answering the question of why the ship failed to make the course change, the report did find the crew failed to maintain a "proper lookout" and maintained a "casual watch-standing behaviour." Transcripts of radio calls around the time of the incident noted music could be heard playing on the bridge. The three terminated employees were not identified by name in the B.C. Ferries probe, but have been identified in subsequent legal proceedings. Karl Lilgert was the fourth officer, Keven Hilton was the second officer and Karen Bricker was at the helm as quartermaster when the ferry foundered. However, while fulfilling duties as officers and bridge crew, all three of the fired workers were regular deckhands, although two had obtained competency certification. Two were suspended without pay shortly after the sinking; the third had been suspended with pay. While staying away from commenting on the grounds the union intends to use to grieve the terminations, Miller said the union felt the action was "premature and ill-advised" before federal investigators release their findings. "I think they should have waited," she said. The Transportation Safety Board has distributed a draft report of its $600,000 investigation into the sinking to an undisclosed list of "interested parties," each of which has 30 days to respond with additions, omissions or changes. The Canadian Press has learned several of those parties have requested extensions based on the sheer scope of the report. Once revisions are made, presented to the board and approved, the final report must again go to the interested parties for approval before the findings can be translated into both official languages and released to the public. That's likely to take several more weeks, if not months. The TSB has confirmed on several occasions that all members of the crew, including the three with watchkeeping responsibilities, cooperated fully with its investigators. The union has maintained it also answered all questions put to it by B.C. Ferries lawyers in the days immediately following the wreck. The union said it also co-operated with the RCMP, charged with investigating the disappearance of Shirley Rosette and Gerald Foisy, the couple from 100 Mile House, B.C., who failed to complete their first ever ferry trip. But in its internal investigation and in comments made before the report was made public in late March, B.C. Ferries has indicated that the fourth and second officers refused to cooperate fully with the company's subsequent probe. The ferryworkers' union said the two had been told by their individual lawyers not to give testimony regarding the final minutes before the ship struck Gill Island. With 36 commissioned vessels and 186,000 sailings carrying more than 20 million passengers and eight million vehicles annually, B.C. Ferries is one of the world's largest and busiest ferry systems. ----------------------
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Post by Political Incorrectness on May 5, 2007 17:30:36 GMT -8
I am sorry to say this but I feel the union is going too far when it comes to this, why should you not terminate employees who were not doing their job which resulted in the sinking of a ship? If you screw up on the job, consequences follow and this is the consequence. However, the other side to the coin is the federal investigation has not come out leading room to speculate, was BCFS too quick on judgement or is the federal going to go with the same result except in thorough detail?
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Post by Coastal Canuck on May 5, 2007 20:15:40 GMT -8
from talking to a crew of the Queen of Nanaimo a month ago, who knows a person who worked on that sailing when the Queen of the North sank it sounds like they got fired because they wouldn't talk to anyone (including the company or the police) about what happened.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 5, 2007 23:00:59 GMT -8
from talking to a crew of the Queen of Nanaimo a month ago, who knows a person who worked on that sailing when the Queen of the North sank it sounds like they got fired because they wouldn't talk to anyone (including the company or the police) about what happened. Wrong. How many times do we have to go through this? They co-operated with the RCMP, and the TSB inquiry.
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Post by Scott on May 7, 2007 17:35:39 GMT -8
And I thought one of the three did cooperate with BC Ferries too.
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Post by hergfest on May 7, 2007 19:38:49 GMT -8
The union had to file an appeal, do you see any circumstances where they wouldn't have?
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Post by Dane on May 7, 2007 20:06:21 GMT -8
And I thought one of the three did cooperate with BC Ferries too. They did. It was wise of the two not to speak to BC Ferries as it would open the door even further to personal civil liability.
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Post by Fenklebaum on May 7, 2007 23:45:14 GMT -8
Good.
I sure as hell don't want those people working on a ferry I'm aboard. Flipping a switch and turning a wheel isn't rocket science.
Fenk, who turns a wheel for a living
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Post by Newsie on May 22, 2007 19:46:56 GMT -8
from talking to a crew of the Queen of Nanaimo a month ago, who knows a person who worked on that sailing when the Queen of the North sank it sounds like they got fired because they wouldn't talk to anyone (including the company or the police) about what happened. Wrong. How many times do we have to go through this? They co-operated with the RCMP, and the TSB inquiry. Actually, no I'm sorry, that's not entirely correct either. Full disclosure, I'm a news reporter in Vancouver and since the sinking of the Queen of the North, I've been both following the story and this discussion board closely. I've never posted before, but I felt this was worth weighing in on. The correct version of the story is that Karl Lilgert and Kevin Hilton gave full testimony to the TSB and only gave testimony up until the QON reached Sainty Point to BC Ferries' Divisional Inquiry. Karen Bricker gave full testimony to the TSB and gave limited (and in some cases disbelieved testimony) to BC Ferries. The RCMP aspect of this is a little less clear. The mounties say their criminal negligence investigation has been hampered by certain people not cooperating. I said to the RCMP spokesperson that the public would likely assume that the same crew member who didn't talk to BC Ferries were also the crew members who would speak to the criminal investigators. I gave him the chance to correct this assumption if he felt it warranted correction... he declined. In my mind, that is a very experienced media relations officer's way of saying the same crew members not talking to BC Ferries are also not talking to the cops. Not that this is a surprise... all three of the QON crew members have experienced lawyers handling the case... of course these lawyers would advise their clients not to talk to the cops. It will be very interesting to see whether charges are recommended by the RCMP and what the Crown does with this recommendation.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on May 22, 2007 20:18:36 GMT -8
Thanks newsie for the inside story, feel free to join in other discussion and welcome aboard.
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Neil
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Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 22, 2007 21:43:54 GMT -8
The fact that an unnamed RCMP official refused to deny a reporter's assumption does not mean that the assumption was correct; it just means that in the midst of an investigation the RCMP are not obliged to answer all press enquiries to the press's satisfaction. There has been no verifiable statement that any of the three crewmembers are hindering the RCMP's investigation, and until or unless that happens, the assumption should be made that they are co-operating with a legal inquiry.
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Post by Newsie on May 23, 2007 17:47:18 GMT -8
The fact that an unnamed RCMP official refused to deny a reporter's assumption does not mean that the assumption was correct; it just means that in the midst of an investigation the RCMP are not obliged to answer all press enquiries to the press's satisfaction. There has been no verifiable statement that any of the three crewmembers are hindering the RCMP's investigation, and until or unless that happens, the assumption should be made that they are co-operating with a legal inquiry. Hornbyguy... So as to answer one of your points, the RCMP officer was E-Division Spokesperson, Cpl. Pierre Lemaitre. He told me that their investigation was being hampered by the continued refusal of certain crew members to cooperate. Who else would you take this as being if not Lilgert, Bricker and Hilton? Also, Pierre is a very media smart guy... I've interacted with him professionally for a number of years now and while I can appreciate how a non-media person might not draw the same inference from his non-confirmation (just as you did), however Pierre is knows how the "media game" works and I would be willing to bet any amount of money that if those crew members to which he referred were not the Bricker, Lilgert, Hilton trio, he would have made that clear. Onto more important things... I'm assuming you're on Hornby Island and if so, I'm very jealous. I am in Hornby withdrawal having not been up there since last August. I'm very much looking forward to getting back up there in a couple of weeks.
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Neil
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Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 23, 2007 18:51:39 GMT -8
Newsie: Fair enough. I appreciate the further info.
Of course, the RCMP's interpretation of what constitutes full compliance with their investigation might be slightly at odds with the view of the three crew members' lawyers. I find it hard to believe that with legal advice, the three would take their reticence into the realm of legal obstruction, but I suppose time will tell.
Unfortunately, I'm only a member of the 'lower caste' of Hornbyites; the part timers. If you're getting up there in a couple of weeks, you'll be able to enjoy the island at it's best- still lush and green with the spring, and minus the wall to wall summer hordes. Enjoy.
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Post by Retrovision on May 25, 2007 6:58:26 GMT -8
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 25, 2007 8:21:29 GMT -8
...and in this Province report from Susan Lazaruk, you get more of a sense of David Hahn beginning the maritime version of circling the wagons, as we see an indication that the TSB report may not concur 100% with the keelhauling of Karen Bricker, Karl Lilgert, and Keven Hilton...
B.C. Ferries sues for return of Queen of North's 'black box' By Susan Lazaruk, The Province Published: Friday, May 25, 2007
B.C. Ferries is suing the federal agency investigating the fatal sinking of the Queen of the North for the return of the ship's electronic "black box." It is also asking the courts to delay the public release of a draft report by the Canadian Transportation Accident Investigation and Safety Board - expected next month - until the corporation has analyzed the electronic log. The draft report is expected to answer why bridge crew did not know the ferry was headed straight for an island at full speed on March 22, 2006. It was released in late March to "designated reviewers." They had 30 days to comment on its factual accuracy. The deadline was extended at B.C. Ferries' request to May 30. In a writ filed in B.C. Supreme Court a week before that deadline, B.C. Ferries asked the court to order the safety board to return the electronic chart system hard drive that the board retrieved from the sunken vessel in June 2006. In a series of letters and e-mails dating back to July 13, 2006, B.C. Ferries president David Hahn had repeatedly insisted the hard drive - or a readable copy - is necessary for the corporation to comment on the draft report. The hard-drive data can be used to reconstruct the movement of the Queen of the North on its final trip, on which two passengers died and 99 passengers and crew were rescued. The writ says B.C. Ferries needs the black box to know "the times when electronic navigational aids were - or were not - being used by crew on the bridge." B.C. Ferries also said it hasn't had the opportunity to "test" the evidence of the second officer, Keven Hilton, and the fourth officer, Karl Lilgert, against the chart system's "objective data." Lilgert and Hilton refused to participate in B.C. Ferries' internal inquiry into the ship's final 14 minutes, but they testified before the safety board. The writ also noted quartermaster Karen Bricker did testify during the corporation's inquiry, but her evidence was she carried out one or two small course alterations while the electronic chart system showed no such course changes were made, according to a partial release of the chart data to B.C. Ferries. In a May 3, 2007, letter from Hahn to safety board chairwoman Wendy Tadros, included as an affidavit filed with the writ, he wrote: "We are also concerned about the apparent acceptance at face value by the TSB of much of the fourth officer's evidence, as indicated in the draft report, although much of it may be contradicted by the objective data recorded on the ECS." In another letter to her on April 25, 2007, Hahn said, "We have serious concerns about a number of factual matters which are the foundation of the report, as well as the tone of the report." Safety board lawyers repeatedly refused to return the black box, saying in a July 2006 e-mail the release "would be detrimental to our investigation process" because it wasn't complete. Tadros wrote Hahn on April 27, 2007, and said the corporation shouldn't need the black box because B.C. Ferries has been asked to "comment on the factual accuracy of the report itself, not to provide complimentary [sic] analysis to that already done by TSB." Last Friday, Tadros agreed to release the black box, but when it hadn't arrived by Tuesday, B.C. Ferries filed the writ. The safety board has a week to file a defence.
slazaruk@png.canwest.com
other stories
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Post by Political Incorrectness on May 25, 2007 14:25:41 GMT -8
Are they trying to cover up something in an investigation that could be criminal?
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 25, 2007 19:30:30 GMT -8
This saga just keeps on getting more interesting......
I wonder who is writing the script?
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Post by Political Incorrectness on May 25, 2007 19:33:51 GMT -8
This saga just keeps on getting more interesting...... I wonder who is writing the script? Must be Big Brother and company, along with all those power hungry and money hungry liars that wear suits and do nothing.
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 25, 2007 19:44:40 GMT -8
No, I meant in a more overall, less rhetorical sense, of "wow, this whole story continues to get weirder". Consider: - first the sinking, a strange enough event (the rarity of passenger ship sinkings on our coast....post-Valencia/Sophia/Cheslakee era). - the mixup re the "all 101 are safe", "no, wait, only 99 are accounted for". - the mystery of whether the missing 2 were seen on the rescue boats or not. - the various bridge rumours - the refusal(s?) to co-operate with investigations - the Robert-Ballard-like robotic retrieval of the hard-drive, from the wreck. - the saga of finding a replacement ship - the Sonia leak and eventual announcement - the Sonia hoopla - the Sonia hype - the Sonia blunders - the Sonia operational-delays - the Sonia's re-refits - the Hartley Bay saga of to name or not to name a ferry after the village. - the blunders of when the Hartley Bay folk visited Victoria. - the back & forth on this forum in the QotN thread - the various forum-postings by insiders, naysayers, reporters, skeptics, fools and fans - the adventures of Wet Coast Kid on his NorAd easter trip - the back-the-truck-down-the-ramp-to-load problem - the Marshall-spin on the NorAd's issues. - BC Ferries suing the TSB? Who'd have thunk that.
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Neil
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Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on May 25, 2007 21:38:09 GMT -8
You're right, it's been quite the saga. There's definitely a book in there, once everything's put to rest. And somehow, I doubt that book will be for sale in the onboard giftshops...
And to think, some people find ferries boring.
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Post by Retrovision on May 25, 2007 21:58:42 GMT -8
It should be reminded to everyone, especially considering the lack of attention our local news media payed to it, that TC offices have atleast once been broken into since the sinking, the time I'm remembering being in Richmond months ago.
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Post by Low Light Mike on May 26, 2007 8:00:23 GMT -8
Update: www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=d4be4f59-5663-4ecf-8629-cd03bc8f34eb&k=30076===================================== B.C. Ferries cuts a deal for access to ship computer Cindy E. Harnett Times Colonist Saturday, May 26, 2007 B.C. Ferries has struck an out-of-court agreement with the Transportation Safety Board to obtain a copy of data retrieved from a computer hard drive in the sunken Queen of the North's electronic chart system. "We just cut a deal, it's on a plane from Ottawa as we speak," B.C. Ferries president David Hahn said yesterday. But the ferry corporation has not abandoned a petition to B.C. Supreme Court to obtain the information from the chart system, which tracks and displays on a monitor the course, direction and speed of a vessel. The corporation had sought unrestricted access to the hard drive or a copy of it, including the ability to release the information publicly. As yet, there's no date for the case to be heard. "We agreed not to release it to anyone, but we reserve our right in the future to go to court if necessary to seek the ability to release it if we deem that's appropriate," Hahn said. "We want unfettered access and rights to use the information in any way possible. "It's our property ... It's an objective view of what occurred that night." B.C. Ferries also asked in its court filing to have any safety-board report about the sinking made "invalid" until the corporation provides its written response to a confidential draft sent to eight recipients. The Queen of the North crashed into Gil Island on March 22, 2006, and later sank in 400 metres of water. Two passengers are presumed drowned and 99 passengers and crew were rescued. The expected summer release of the final TSB report on the sinking has been delayed because a couple of recipients, including B.C. Ferries, asked for an extension to the 30-day response time. TSB spokesman John Cottreau said the ferry corporation requested a copy of the hard-drive data on May 18. "We have repeatedly offered to release a copy on the condition it not be made public until we release our final report, but until today ... B.C. Ferries has not replied," Cottreau said. B.C. Ferries hopes the chart-system data will provide more information about who, or what, is to blame for the crash. "We want to find out what the hell happened that night," said Hahn, who has already seen data from the hard drive. That information, coupled with interviews with crew, formed the basis of an internal report released in March that blamed human error for the crash. It determined the officer in charge of the vessel, en route from Prince Rupert to Port Hardy, "failed to make a necessary course alteration or verify such alteration was made." The Queen of the North failed to turn at Sainty Point and instead slammed into Gil Island at 12:22 a.m. At the time of the crash, fourth officer Karl Lilgert, who was in charge, and helmswoman Karen Bricker were on the bridge. Second officer Keven Hilton was on a meal break. All three have been fired. The B.C. Ferry and Marine Workers' Union is challenging the dismissals. Hahn believes there may be more data on the hard drive to be analyzed. "I know what I saw physically [on the computer screen] but I don't know everything that's on the computer [hard drive]." The electronic chart system, recovered from the wreck last June by the TSB, connects to a global positioning system -- a satellite-based navigational aid tracking the ship's position -- as well as an automatic identification system that charts the course of other vessels in the area. It visually recreates on a computer screen the course of the vessel that night, Hahn said. TSB advisories issued last year questioned B.C. Ferries' safety and training practices, reporting that bridge crew, unfamiliar with the dimmer switch, had turned off the electronic chart system's monitor. They were also confused about how to use a month-old steering-mode selector switch that controls, among other things, autopilot or manual steering. ceharnett@tc.canwest.com © Times Colonist (Victoria) 2007
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