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Post by Dane on Oct 2, 2008 15:53:19 GMT -8
yes dane it will affect lots of travellers, but one has to keep in mind the cost to sail and crew the boat on any 1 trip vs. the amount of people and vehicles carried. I've listened from the bridge of the Alberni on how few people some of the ships have aboard. some early mornins, its quite sad. how few people are aboard. So that means you have to tie up for certain sailings if you can. Everyone will make due. ... On the Alberni, which is on the least utilized of the major routes. Rte 2 is in effect a part of the Trans Canada Highway, and Rte 1 is obviously very busy nearly all the time. I am not advocating for frivolous amounts of sailings, but a four hour service interval is pathetic.
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Post by Canucks on Oct 2, 2008 16:10:34 GMT -8
I agree with Dane about not canceling the sailings. Just because those sailings are less busy doesn't mean that they should cancel them. A four hour sailing is quite pathetic. They should at least have the 6:30 so people that commute to work can get there. Really though, there should be hourly sailings on routes 1 and 2 because they are part of the Trans Canada hwy. And in a dream world they should be free too because federal taxes should pay for it.
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Post by Canucks on Oct 2, 2008 16:14:44 GMT -8
I just had a thought about why CR might be pulled. Could it be that all the "extras", lights on whole extra deck, special water system, other machines or appliances cause more costs in electricity, maintenance, or gas to run them. What does everyone else think?
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Post by gordon on Oct 2, 2008 16:53:55 GMT -8
How under utilized is route30 compared to route#2
The schedules of routes 2 & 30 combined have close to hourly sailings sometimes sailings within 15 mins of each other.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 2, 2008 17:03:30 GMT -8
Since BCFCorp is required to run like a business, so new investment in facilities, equipment and services, requires profit. So by cutting service they are following their mandate.
So lets assume that BCF goes back to being a crown corporation. Here is are two options for debate.
1. The ferry should run on its schedule no matter what volume of people actually ride on it. That would mean that the ferry "looses" taxpayer money and sets the normal business measurement because it is a service.
2. The schedule should match the reasonable volume of traffic to provide the best value for taxpayer money. That may mean that some people will have to wait a sailing if there just isn't enough people to sail historically. This would be known in advance so people could make plans but some inconvenience will result.
What does everyone think? BTW I debated whether this should be a new thread or not or just continue on here. Mods if you think it should be moved to its own please do so.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 16, 2008 5:57:56 GMT -8
Here's an article re the learning curve of efficiently operating the new Coastal ships. www.canada.com:80/vancouversun/news/westcoastnews/story.html?id=68a13ab7-ea23-4808-a33f-957231176116====================== New ferries' efficiency depends on proficiency Learning pertinent local knowledge could take year, CEO says David Hogben Vancouver Sun Thursday, October 16, 2008 It could take up to a year for BC Ferries captains and crews to gain enough proficiency in operating the three new Super C-class vessels to obtain maximum fuel efficiency, BC Ferries chief executive officer David Hahn says. Hahn estimated the new vessels will save BC Ferries up to seven million litres a year in fuel once they are being operated at expected efficiency. BC Ferries chief operating officer Mike Corrigan has cited expected annual fuel savings of more than $5 million when all three Super C-class vessels are operating. However, only one of the three vessels, purchased for a total of $542 million from the Flensburger Schiffau-Gesellschaft Shipyard in Germany, is in full operation. The Coastal Inspiration began service on the Duke Point to Tsawwassen run on June 16. The Coastal Renaissance, on the Departure Bay to Horseshoe Bay run, now operates just Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. The third of the newest vessels, the Coastal Celebration, is scheduled to begin service in mid-November between Swartz Bay and Tsawwassen, but Hahn said it is being used for training out of the Swartz Bay terminal before it begins regular service. Hahn said in an interview the vessels are expected to become more fuel-efficient as the captains and crew become more accustomed to the vessels. "We want them [captains and crews] to take whatever time they need to get comfortable with the ships. The first year of operating these ships is when you have to get smart about them and learn to operate them as safely as you can. Then you will get into more of the efficiencies of operation." Hahn said it would not make sense to hurry the training along. "You would be setting people up to make mistakes," he said. Hahn said it takes some time to learn how to operate the vessels properly, just as it does to learn how everything in a home works after a major renovation. "It takes some time to [become accustomed] to it and it's the same thing with these ships," Hahn said. "They are much more efficient, but they are also much more complicated." Hahn said the captains who brought the vessels from Germany to B.C. are ahead of the other captains in learning how to handle the new vessels most efficiently. "The captains that sailed the ships from Germany are much more efficient at operating the ships and the reason is that they had 45 to 60 days to [become accustomed] to them." Corrigan has said the new ships' diesel-electric propulsion system is 30-per-cent more efficient than engines on older ferries. Most of the savings are to be realized by moving vessels to routes where they can more suitably be matched to the specific demands of the routes. dhogben@vancouversun.com © The Vancouver Sun 2008 ====================
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Post by gordon on Oct 16, 2008 8:11:45 GMT -8
Interesting article
If these ships are as complex as David Hahn says would it not make more sense to operate the CR as much as possible as opposed to docking her during the weeks & using her as the 3rd ship on Route#2
If the CC is only going to be the 3rd ship on route#1 it will take even longer to bring all the efficiencies out of her? I would suspect that The CI is a pretty good fir on Route #30 because of the oversize capacity.
Would it not make sense to have all3 Coastals as primary vessels?
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Post by WettCoast on Oct 16, 2008 9:00:33 GMT -8
This same article appeared in this morning's Times-Colonist. Much of the content seems to me to be questionable, as stated by Gordon above. Among other things, were BC Ferry captains aboard for the delivery voyages from Germany? I thought that this was done entirely by Redwise. Also, how would running across the mid Atlantic train them for delicate berthing operations at Horseshoe Bay, or operating through Active Pass?
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 16, 2008 11:41:26 GMT -8
There were BC Ferries staff on board but they weren't in charge of the ship, Redwise was. BC Ferries was on board as observers not as in command. There is a big difference observing than actually piloting and docking in a berth.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Oct 16, 2008 11:58:50 GMT -8
Just because they weren't in command doesn't mean they never got the opportunity to "drive". I'm sure that the captains that were on the delivery voyage got some opportunity to do some maneuvering with the ships to find out how they handle. I have heard from a very good source that when the CC went through Active Pass on her delivery voyage, the BCF captain on board was "driving" for lack of a better word.
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Post by yvr on Oct 16, 2008 22:04:21 GMT -8
One has to wonder about Mr. Hahn's statement that it will take a year for all captains to be trained on fuel efficiency matters. To me it appears there may be inaccuracies in his quote. Lets analyze a typical gulf crossing. Set up a sail plan in the voyage computer. Analyze if vehicle load requires ballast adjustment. Gang planks up - set pre determined throttle and pitch, (as taught in training) for moving away from the ramp. Determine crossing time required vs the max fuel burn corporate will allow. Set the engine /pitch settings that will give the desired crossing time. Arriving at the other side. De accelerate at the pre determined point - select reverse as taught by the training captain. Nose the ship into the jetty.
So where does training the driver to get the best miles per gallon come into it? To me it appears the only fuel consumption variable might be in docking. Lets have your thoughts.
YVR
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Post by WettCoast on Oct 16, 2008 22:11:55 GMT -8
YVR, I was thinking much along the same lines as you on this one. And just how will removing the CR from service four days a week (and keeping the CC as #2 vessel at Swartz) help with achieving the goal of getting bridge crew 'up to speed' in the efficient operation of these vessels?
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Oct 16, 2008 22:12:24 GMT -8
One has to wonder about Mr. Hahn's statement that it will take a year for all captains to be trained on fuel efficiency matters. To me it appears there may be inaccuracies in his quote. Lets analyze a typical gulf crossing. Set up a sail plan in the voyage computer. Analyze if vehicle load requires ballast adjustment. Gang planks up - set pre determined throttle and pitch, (as taught in training) for moving away from the ramp. Determine crossing time required vs the max fuel burn corporate will allow. Set the engine /pitch settings that will give the desired crossing time. Arriving at the other side. De accelerate at the pre determined point - select reverse as taught by the training captain. Nose the ship into the jetty. So where does training the driver to get the best miles per gallon come into it? To me it appears the only fuel consumption variable might be in docking. Lets have your thoughts. YVR My thoughts are that whatever line of work you're in, yvr, you should obviously be a BC Ferries captain. You've managed to lay the whole job out in six lines or so. Obviously, if they're paying their captains more than eight bucks an hour, they're paying too much, seeing how simple it is.
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Post by Hardy on Oct 17, 2008 3:01:57 GMT -8
One has to wonder about Mr. Hahn's statement that it will take a year for all captains to be trained on fuel efficiency matters. To me it appears there may be inaccuracies in his quote. <SNIP> So where does training the driver to get the best miles per gallon come into it? To me it appears the only fuel consumption variable might be in docking. Lets have your thoughts. Kicking in my truck driver mode - basis of my comparison is larger engines (truck/marine) versus typical car (gasoline) engines. Shifting gears and hills notwithstanding, there isn't anything as easy as just 'setting up cruise control' and walking away. Learning how to manage tidal conditions, and doing more than just baby-sitting gauges and read-outs would, in my estimation, go a long way to increasing fuel efficiency. Driving truck to me, means that I have to figure out my best way to keep my speed up with minimal gentle throttle applications and reduce the need to reduce speed (brake) or change lanes - nothing is more efficient than hitting top gear on a relatively flat stretch, getting about 1400 RPM or so with a gentle throttle application and keeping good following distance. This rarely ever happens though. I have to constantly scan ahead, feather my throttle (keeping the load down) and adjust my distance etc. ANYONE can point a truck, press the throttle pedal and GET THERE, but I might do it at a more fuel conservative pace - what's the point of going hard gas and hard brake and getting 1500km down the road 10 minutes faster? Burning an extra $80 of fuel? Wearing out my brakes and abusing my engine? Nah, no thanks. It's different with a ship, I understand. But "aiming" to minimize the effort you are using to fight the tides, gliding the ship smoothly through it's turns and all sorts of other operational techniques can be used to maximize efficiency. I understand that most of the tasks are automated and are "set and forget" but that does not mean that you cannot achieve efficiencies on them. Your hood fan over your stove is all set up -- just turn it on, and it efficiently removes cooking odours, smoke, steam etc. Yet, if you don't turn it off when you are done or no longer need it, you are causing noise pollution and and wasting energy to run it needlessly. Have I ever captained a ship? No. Have I ever driven a small rental out of Sewells to cruise to Bowen? Yes. Do I drive a truck for a living? Yes. Am I an expert driver? No, only 8 years driving full time and just under 200,000km driving 5-tons or bigger.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 17, 2008 7:32:12 GMT -8
A family friend was a senior person with Mac Trucks here in Toronto and Winnipeg. He was featured on one of those mighty machines or similar shows that highlighted the Mac Truck.
He always said each truck was a little different despite the same technical specs. Each had their own personality and idiosycrasies to learn and deal with. He said they could tell when a fleet had the same drivers assigned to the same truck versus constantly changing drunks and drivers through a pool.
When assigned a particular vehicle, the good drivers got the most out of the trucks and more efficiency resulted and the trucks better maintained. Bad drivers however resulted in a worse truck because the same bad things were done over and over. A pool approach was better when you had a real wide selection of drivers of differing skills. Efficiency suffered because no one really knew the individual trucks but the trucks "wore" more evenly.
His illustration came up because the had an antique '30 something Ford that had few drivers, with the last being a very mechanically adept farmer. He had had another old car that went through lots of owners and he was talking about the difference in cost of restoration.
I guess this would be the same thing for the marine applications. Knowing how to berth a ferry using gentle inputs rather than larger more fuel hungry ones would be similar to what Hardy is talking about with the efficiency in driving a truck. That takes some time to get in the groove. Once someone learns the tricks they can share them and cross train them with other captains.
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Oct 17, 2008 9:14:33 GMT -8
Offering up a glib, uninformed, layman's critique of what's involved in piloting a 520 foot, 22,000 ton vessel, as yvr has done, is pointless. It's also disrespectful to the officers actually charged with doing it.
There's no urgent need to have these vessels in full operation immediately. If costs involved in crew scheduling and training, and a current lack of need for capacity, outweigh fuel economy savings, then there's no reason why they can't sit part of the time. They'll be needed eventually.
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Post by yvr on Oct 17, 2008 14:36:57 GMT -8
Thanks for your knowledgeable insight Neil. Most of us would agree that the officer of the watch programs in the voyage details. In turn the voyage management computer tells you how many knots you need. The corresponding fuel consumption would a factor of speed, wind, and tides. As Hardy correctly states, taking it easy off the line, and coasting towards the dock are just common sense for most folks. You suggest that paying captains 8 bucks an hour is too much for such a simple job. Of course you didn't factor in - they don't pay them for what they do, they pay them for what they know. The bottom line is that on such advanced vessels computers tell you what to do and when.
YVR
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Post by Hardy on Oct 18, 2008 1:26:21 GMT -8
Computers make so-so anchors, BTW. GIGO (Garbage-in, Garbage-Out) is a huge consideration in determining the validity and usefulness of any information which a machine provides.
You also have to be able to interpret and understand all (it at least not most) of the OUTPUT of the machine - an assumption that was made in the programming - that the user can and will know exactly what the machine is presenting and what it is act accordingly.
That said, having a crew not up to speed on the computer or missing cues from it may as well shut the thing off, tie it to a rope and toss it overboard as an emergency anchor.
Machines (computers) break. The information they present is based on what they have been TOLD to present, and is not always accurate. Back to my stomping grounds, take GPS units -- great things, however, related to TRUCKING, "make a U-turn when able" is not an instruction I tend to listen to. I also have to watch for those silly and annoying "NO TRUCK ROUTE" signs, and even more so, those other yellow clearance signs. The GPS, good as it is at WHAT it does, does NOT factor these things in (unless I could re-program it's logic, and also input all these data points for each routing combination!). However, using my first-hand knowledge, gossip, 2nd/3rd-hand info etc, I instinctively KNOW truck routes, clearance etc. Moreover, it is not just about the "shortest distance" - it is more about "the best route at this particular time of day and day of week" coupled with the latest AM-730 traffic update.
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D'Elete BC in NJ
Voyager
Dispensing gallons of useless information daily...
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Post by D'Elete BC in NJ on Oct 18, 2008 3:11:24 GMT -8
Computers make so-so anchors, BTW. GIGO (Garbage-in, Garbage-Out) is a huge consideration in determining the validity and usefulness of any information which a machine provides. You also have to be able to interpret and understand all (it at least not most) of the OUTPUT of the machine - an assumption that was made in the programming - that the user can and will know exactly what the machine is presenting and what it is act accordingly. That said, having a crew not up to speed on the computer or missing cues from it may as well shut the thing off, tie it to a rope and toss it overboard as an emergency anchor. Machines (computers) break. The information they present is based on what they have been TOLD to present, and is not always accurate. Back to my stomping grounds, take GPS units -- great things, however, related to TRUCKING, "make a U-turn when able" is not an instruction I tend to listen to. I also have to watch for those silly and annoying "NO TRUCK ROUTE" signs, and even more so, those other yellow clearance signs. The GPS, good as it is at WHAT it does, does NOT factor these things in (unless I could re-program it's logic, and also input all these data points for each routing combination!). However, using my first-hand knowledge, gossip, 2nd/3rd-hand info etc, I instinctively KNOW truck routes, clearance etc. Moreover, it is not just about the "shortest distance" - it is more about "the best route at this particular time of day and day of week" coupled with the latest AM-730 traffic update. In an effort to test Hardy's commitment to non-off-topicness...you need to find a GPS with the following software handles...traffic updates and rerouting, and user programmable map corrections...they are out there...like the UFOs
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Post by Hardy on Oct 19, 2008 10:03:21 GMT -8
"Cross-replied" in order to bring my "off-topic-reply-ratio" in check (I think Flug mis-posted also, but... ) The locals are organizing..... www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=87331870-aba0-4cbf-8618-e81a0cadf5c7============= Town hall called over ferry cuts Cheryl Chan The Province Sunday, October 19, 2008 Sunshine Coast residents outraged over recent cuts in ferry sailings will vent their frustrations at a town hall meeting in Gibsons tomorrow. Organizer Nicholas Simons, MLA for Powell River-Sunshine Coast, said the community is furious over the lack of public consultation: "If you're going to mess with our only highway system, can you talk to us first so we can reduce the negative impact?" As part of cost-cutting measures, B.C. Ferries has cancelled four sailings between Horseshoe Bay and Langdale on Saturday night and Sunday morning. Similar cuts were made on the Swartz Bay-Tsawwassen and Departure Bay-Horseshoe Bay routes. Simons said the sailing cuts are wreaking havoc on people's schedules as many residents often travel to the Lower Mainland for "routine activities" on weekends, including work, sporting events, extra-curricular activities and church services. He has invited Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon and B.C. Ferries president David Hahn to the meeting, but has not received a reply. A ministry spokesperson said Falcon was in Sechelt Wednesday to discuss the ferry cuts with city council. The decision to cut the sailings was based strictly on the numbers, said B.C. Ferries spokeswoman Deborah Marshall. "We recognize we are inconveniencing customers, but we chose those [sailings] to impact the least amount possible." Marshall said the 6:20 a.m. Sunday Langdale sailing operates at only five-per-cent passenger capacity and 16-per-cent vehicle capacity in the low season. The town hall meeting starts at 7:30 p.m. tomorrow at the Gibsons and Area Community Centre. chchan@theprovince.com © The Vancouver Province 2008 ====================== I wonder, and this time I mean SERIOUSLY wonder, if this will give the overland route movement the traction that it will require. With Premier Gordo's push to do everything as a P3 and toll us into stupidity, there might be a political appetite for the overland route finally. (above reference is to the Golden Ears Bridge, and Port Mann twinning - the only 'free' routes will be Abbotsford-Mission and Pattulo. As we know, the Pattulo is dangerously narrow and is scheduled for replacement, but sending extra traffic to it will only exacerbate the situation. Once it is replaced, the next bridge west, Alex Fraser, will take more traffic. I don't disagree with TOLLING crossings, but also push for reasonable alternatives to be available. The above scenario is just bad. My bone of contention is the rate of the tolls that they will have. The GEB is going to be around $8 for a 5-ton 24'box (35' overall) truck, each way. I find the rate to be HIGH, and if this is a model for the Port Mann and future Pattulo tolls, then it will be highway (!) robbery). Back to the Squamish-Sechelt overland route, I will try to find the link for the study etc, and I know that we hashed this around when it was posted earlier. While this route may gain some traction, I doubt that there will be any serious talk or consideration of a bridge to the Mainland from the Island. *** EDITS *** Found a thread where part of this was discussed: ferriesbc.proboards20.com/index.cgi?board=nonBCF&action=display&thread=67&page=1It is not the reference I was looking for, and I am still trying to find it. There was a study done by a private individual and it was posted, but I cannot for the life of me find it by searching right now, short of reviewing each thread! Managed to FINALLY find an external link regarding the overland route: www.discovervancouver.com/forum/Bridge-Vancouver-Island-t126366.html
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 19, 2008 10:33:31 GMT -8
Mulling this over form a different perspective. I was thinking about airlines. Airlines operate much differently than BCFC. They have a variety of sizes and types of aircraft. They can upgauge and downgauge according to demands. They build into their scheduling the flexibility to do this. Even Westjet that uses the Boeing 737 exclusively, has three models to choose from.
Air Canada will shift flights from larger aircraft to smaller aircraft when the loads warrant. For example from Toronto to Montreal there is more than hourly service throughout the day. Almost every aircraft type that AC has is used on that route. From the largest the 777-300ER (77W) down to the Embraer 175. When the flights are slimmer than warrants the 175, they switch the flight to a CRJ705, or even down to the smallest jet the CRJ200 and are flown by Jazz.
Some of this is to make maximum use of aircraft. When a 77W lands from London in Toronto it is unloaded and fueled and flies a round trip to Montreal. On return to Toronto it is unloaded and moved to the International wing to be once again loaded and flown to London again. The only time the aircraft is on the ground is when it is loading, unloading and being serviced. However most of the day the aircraft chosen meets the demand at that time of day.
BC Ferries operates in a much more static manner where crew are trained for specific routes and specific ferries. Those ferries seldom move around except for refit replacement, emergency service and during very busy periods when a ferry is shared between DPB and HSB and the Sunshine Coast.
A flight attendant is first trained on the basics on all aircraft and then assigned and specifically trained for specific aircraft. Pilots have qualifications that allow them to fly certain aircraft and until they are rated on that type can't fly them. However, a lot of crew are cross rated and trained and can be moved around if needed.
It would be very interesting to see a cost analysis of being able to put a smaller ferry on the Sunshine Coast route during parts of the day when demand is low. Fuel savings would be huge but labour costs may go up because you may have staff on standby. Undoubtedly there is a cost to doing it this over cancelling sailings and the return would need to be there. A much more sophisticated crew scheduling program would need to be introduced closer to the ones that airlines use.
So in other words the schedule would be published that once the rush hour push is over the ferry would switch to a smaller ferry. For special events the larger ferry would be put back on.
Anyways just something I have been mulling over.
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Post by gordon on Oct 19, 2008 10:34:47 GMT -8
How does the Golden Ears Bridge toll rate you mentioned compare with the rate for the recently removed Coquihalla tolls?
Is there a possibility of a road option to Langdale & the Sunshine Coast that is closer to the Lower Mainland
Tolling a new Pattulo Bridge is a bone of contention between Vcitoria & Translink. Translink has talked about tolling it but the government says not so fast.
The final decision n replacing Pattulo Bridge lies with Translink.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 19, 2008 12:20:26 GMT -8
"Cross-replied" in order to bring my "off-topic-reply-ratio" in check (I think Flug mis-posted also, but... ) oops, I am guilty of posting into the wrong topic. It's tough when there are 2 issues hurting the local communities: fares & service-reductions. Double Jeopardy for resident travelers.
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Post by gordon on Oct 19, 2008 12:28:07 GMT -8
Hardy What do you think would a reasonable toll for the size of truck that you were talking bout in your earlier post?
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Post by Hardy on Oct 19, 2008 14:47:46 GMT -8
Gordon: please click below ....
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