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Post by Dane on Jun 24, 2009 9:44:49 GMT -8
There is a terrible irony in this transportation focused government of ours. Why is it we add so much capacity to so many roads, make things faster, spend millions of dollars on relatively minor projects and yet can justify the cancellation of one round trip on a route that is apart of the Trans Canada Highway. This is continued idiocy from the management of BC Ferries. Sure, they'll save money if the sailings aren't full, I can't dispute that logic, but BC Ferries is a service.
With the prioritization of BC Ferries apparently Gordo and team won a victory getting many on this board, and surely the general public to somehow believe that the company will: a. have the ability to generate a profit (which it actually probably could accomplish by operating only major routes, though) b. minimize substantial losses through minor reductions of sailings that disproportionately create inconvenience over savings c. care about the ferry users in the system
Any reduction of the two-hour headway is not acceptable. I hope this is brought forward at the AGM, and that a real answer comes from the company on the actual cost savings that are being achieved. Generally, you are allowed a follow up question. My follow up question would be how much does a panel in GM Place cost BC Ferries for advertising. It better be a lot cheaper than the anticipated savings.
PK, to your post, the reduction of wear on the CR through missing one round trip is negligible. The thing won't even be 2. An "operations point of view" generally, except in the current BCFS model, includes users. This is why BCF was public in the first place!!
This is another failure of a near bankrupt organization. I can't wait until they default on a loan.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 24, 2009 9:50:17 GMT -8
2 points to make: 1) I think the Route-2 service cut (1900/2100 sailing on the Dep.Bay based-ship) makes sense, mainly for the labour cost, and because it's a low volume sailing. Campbell wouldn't intercede in this regard since there are already two other operating routes to The Island at the time of the 7 PM and 9PM cuts. The interceding would mean gummint money being put in to relieve the cost pressures, but I doubt that would happen, since the gummint is going to be hit with quite a few financial migraines. So it will be just a matter of wincing and holding on until spring, but there would be additional sails during Christmas / Boxing Day week. 2) The reason Campbell won't intercede is because there is no political opportunity, this time around. The reasons that PKeenlyside has given are similar to last year's situation, but yet Gord chose to interfere last time. If your reasons (other routes, no available money to spend) were valid both for fall-2008 and fall-2009, then what's the difference? Must be the May-2009 election date. The main legacy, in my view, of Gord's fall-2008 interference is to highlight that the BC Ferries independent company idea is a sham. It's not independent of Gov't interference, as evidenced by what Gord did last fall. And the only reason that he interfered was political. (of course, most politicians on either side would do interference for political gain too).
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Post by Nickfro on Sept 8, 2009 13:55:48 GMT -8
Now that the busy summer period is over, I took some time to look at what BCFS has in store for the slower off season periods. Not much change to report on the major routes except for one thing. . .
After Thanksgiving on Route 2, the Nanaimo based ferry will NOT sail its final round trip of the day (7pm from Nanaimo, 9pm from HSB) Monday thru Thursday. This means the last sailing of the day out of Horseshoe Bay will be 7pm on those days. Exception: Christmas holidays and during the Olympics.
I look forward to see how that goes over!
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Post by ferrytraveller on Sept 14, 2009 18:33:43 GMT -8
just a rumor going around, i've heard that bcf is planning to tie up the sobc during the winter in favour of the New West. Other then the Olympic period of course
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Post by gordon on Sept 16, 2009 8:00:17 GMT -8
B.C. Ferries reduces capacity in various ways on the major southern routes during slow times, but yet they still have the overlap in service on the Inside Passage Route for a couple of weeks in the Fall & Spring. Could they not improve their bottom line by having the Day cruise finish(fall) start in the Spring before \after the the overnight service starts or finishes?
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Post by Mike C on Sept 16, 2009 13:25:44 GMT -8
B.C. Ferries reduces capacity in various ways on the major southern routes during slow times, but yet they still have the overlap in service on the Inside Passage Route for a couple of weeks in the Fall & Spring. Could they not improve their bottom line by having the Day cruise finish(fall) start in the Spring before \after the the overnight service starts or finishes? I'm not sure if I understand this question (hint-hint revise your wording) but I'll see if I can answer it to the best of my abilities. First of all, BC Ferries does not overlap services in the summer on the North Coast. Route 40 does local community service on the Central Coast, while Route 10 as served by the NorEx serves specifically Port Hardy and Prince Rupert on a more tourist-oriented run. The last part of your question makes NO sense, but that is the current format. The overnight local runs continue on to Prince Rupert, as Route 10 instead of Route 40, as the off-season begins. The express peak-season Route 10 sailings end in early-fall. They cannot have these two overlap, as they simply do not have the ships or the resources, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.
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Post by gordon on Sept 16, 2009 13:45:53 GMT -8
My last post was not well worded.
Having the Overnight service & the Spring Summer Day Cruise running concurrently in the Spring & last half of September seems to be over servicing this particular area. ,Why not just have the one ship running the combination of the IP Overnight service & the QCI Route once the tourist season is over until around the May long Weekend?
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Post by Nickfro on Sept 16, 2009 14:03:36 GMT -8
NewFlyer, I think he's referring to the period when the Northern Expedition is operating on the nonstop day cruise and when the Chilliwack is not on Route 40. During those small windows of time (late May to early June, mid Sept to end of Sept) the Northern Adventure does a couple of overnight runs on the Inside Passage, as per its usual winter schedule. This is what I believe Gordon is talking about.
My only thought about this is that the Northern Adventure is acting as a commuter ferry, servicing the Inside Passage mostly to those who live there. The summer day cruise is more of a tourist sailing, and I know that September is a popular vacation month for retirees or people hwo don't have kids in school. Me thinks there is still a demand for the day cruise in late May and late Sept, but there is also still a need (and probably a commitment to service) for regular Mid Coast service for the people who live in those communities.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 16, 2009 14:19:08 GMT -8
There is indeed an overlap in September. F'r instance, this coming Saturday, the NorEx will leave Port Hardy for Prince Rupert at 7:30am, with the NorAd leaving for central coast points and Prince Rupert at 6:00pm.
There is no service at all to the central coast, save for a couple of stops at Bella Bella, between the end of the 'Chilliwack's stint and the start of fall service on the 18th. Don't know how they get away with that for ten days.
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 12, 2009 17:49:46 GMT -8
Route 30 has its reduced Saturday service extended. It used to go to a six sailing schedule commencing from the weekend after Thanksgiving to the last weekend of March inclusive. Now, this silly schedule goes from the weekend after Labour Day to a week before Canada Day.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 12, 2009 18:17:57 GMT -8
Route 30 has its reduced Saturday service extended. It used to go to a six sailing schedule commencing from the weekend after Thanksgiving to the last weekend of March inclusive. Now, this silly schedule goes from the weekend after Labour Day to a week before Canada Day. It's not silly. They've provided the stats to back their cuts to route 2 service on mid-week evenings, and Saturday evenings are very light on route 30, and the cuts are justified there as well.
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 12, 2009 21:19:25 GMT -8
Route 30 has its reduced Saturday service extended. It used to go to a six sailing schedule commencing from the weekend after Thanksgiving to the last weekend of March inclusive. Now, this silly schedule goes from the weekend after Labour Day to a week before Canada Day. It's not silly. They've provided the stats to back their cuts to route 2 service on mid-week evenings, and Saturday evenings are very light on route 30, and the cuts are justified there as well. It is silly. If BCF is going to cut back on the route 2 sailings, they should have taken off the 1900h and 2100h sailings on Saturdays as well and put those sailings on route 30. That way, there is a consistent seven day a week schedule for route 30. Further more, in the name of consistency, many extra sailings happen on Fridays and Sundays only, not on Saturday.
I know Islanders have never been happy with the route 30 cutback and have asked many times that route 2 should have the last sailings taken off instead. Residents near the terminals on both sides of route 2 have also requested that.
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Post by Dane on Oct 12, 2009 21:24:14 GMT -8
www2.canada.com/northshorenews/news/story.html?id=e0702bc1-2b21-47bb-b6ac-6964e13b4ba9Ferries cancelled but crews still paidJane Seyd, North Shore News Published: Friday, October 09, 2009 PEOPLE traveling between the North Shore and Vancouver Island during the week are soon going to have to get to Horseshoe Bay earlier to make the ferry. B.C. Ferries has cancelled the last 9 p.m. sailing leaving West Vancouver on Monday through Thursday nights beginning next week. That means the last sailing leaving Horseshoe Bay for the island on weeknights will be at 7 p.m. The 7 p.m. sailing leaving Departure Bay and coming over to West Vancouver has also been cancelled. The change marks the first time B.C. Ferries has canceled a regular sailing on one of its major moneymaking routes. B.C. Ferries has canceled the sailings as a money-saving measure, said Deborah Marshall, spokeswoman for the ferry corporation. The corporation expects to save $450,000 in fuel costs by canceling 140 sailings between now and the end of March. The late-night ferry cancellations won't come into effect until after the Thanksgiving weekend and won't affect sailings between Friday and Sunday. They also won't be canceled during the Christmas season and during the Olympics next February, said Marshall. People hoping to get to Vancouver Island later in the evening outside of those times, however, will either have to drive to Tsawwassen or take an earlier ferry. Marshall said the decision was made after reviewing traffic levels and finding the 9 p.m. ferry leaving West Vancouver was only 30 per cent full during most week nights. The ferry leaving Nanaimo at 7 p.m. was usually only half full. During the two hours the ferries aren't running, a full complement of regular crew will be paid to remain on board, despite the lack of customers. Marshall said that's in order to fulfill the corporation's union contract with its workers, who will do cleaning, maintenance and safety drills during that time. Gary Coons, NDP ferries critic, said he's heard a number of concerns about the cancellations, especially from school groups from Vancouver Island going back and forth for competitions with North Shore teams. "It's going to impact a lot of people," said Coons, adding there's a "wide range of people" who need access to ferry crossings later at night. Coons said he's concerned that fares have gone up and service has gone down since B.C. Ferries was privatized. "There's no accountability," he said.
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 12, 2009 22:06:25 GMT -8
The last sentence of the article says it all, there is no accountability.
Some inconsistencies by the author or misprints:
"During the two hours the ferries aren't running..."
Only one ferry is not running during those times.
"The change marks the first time B.C. Ferries has canceled a regular sailing on one of its major moneymaking routes."
I do recall in the mid to late 1990s that this similar stunt of cancelling some of route 2's sailings happened. Is route 30 a money making route? If so, regular sailings have been taken of that route.
"The late-night ferry cancellations won't come into effect until..."
Sailing times at 1900h and 2100h are considered late night? The 2245h on route 30 or the summer sailing on Sundays from HSB at 2250h are late night.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 12, 2009 22:14:54 GMT -8
It is silly. If BCF is going to cut back on the route 2 sailings, they should have taken off the 1900h and 2100h sailings on Saturdays as well and put those sailings on route 30. That way, there is a consistent seven day a week schedule for route 30. Further more, in the name of consistency, many extra sailings happen on Fridays and Sundays only, not on Saturday.
I know Islanders have never been happy with the route 30 cutback and have asked many times that route 2 should have the last sailings taken off instead. Residents near the terminals on both sides of route 2 have also requested that. Route 30 operated for many years with Saturday evening sailings, providing ample evidence that that was the lightest traffic period of the week, and therefore the most logical time to cut back when necessary. Having a consistent schedule isn't as important as using the available resources for periods when they're needed most. You simply can't argue that it makes sense to have boats sailing back and forth mostly empty from both sides week after week, year after year. If you think BC Ferries should be meeting the needs of every islander who wants to come over to Vancouver for a concert and get back home the same evening, then you need to be lobbying your Liberal MLA to pressure Mr Campbell to increase their subsidy. As they're set up, they don't have the resources to keep everyone happy all the time, and the cuts they've made are understandable given documented traffic loads.
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 12, 2009 22:52:45 GMT -8
It is silly. If BCF is going to cut back on the route 2 sailings, they should have taken off the 1900h and 2100h sailings on Saturdays as well and put those sailings on route 30. That way, there is a consistent seven day a week schedule for route 30. Further more, in the name of consistency, many extra sailings happen on Fridays and Sundays only, not on Saturday.
I know Islanders have never been happy with the route 30 cutback and have asked many times that route 2 should have the last sailings taken off instead. Residents near the terminals on both sides of route 2 have also requested that. Route 30 operated for many years with Saturday evening sailings, providing ample evidence that that was the lightest traffic period of the week, and therefore the most logical time to cut back when necessary. Having a consistent schedule isn't as important as using the available resources for periods when they're needed most. You simply can't argue that it makes sense to have boats sailing back and forth mostly empty from both sides week after week, year after year. If you think BC Ferries should be meeting the needs of every islander who wants to come over to Vancouver for a concert and get back home the same evening, then you need to be lobbying your Liberal MLA to pressure Mr Campbell to increase their subsidy. As they're set up, they don't have the resources to keep everyone happy all the time, and the cuts they've made are understandable given documented traffic loads. I am not arguing to have the vessels sail almost empty. I am saying that route 2 should have its Saturday evening sailings on route 30. Customers and residences have requested that repeatedly. It is that BCF's logic is not understandable. I have been told that Saturday evening traffic on route 2 is just a little higher than the Monday to Thursday traffic. Unfortunately, that was not mentioned in the article.
This has nothing to do with concerts and Islanders wanting to get home on the same night. Concerts end after 2230h, if not 2330h. Staying on the entertainment topic, I know the Canucks organization would be very happy if the 2245h on Saturdays from TSA was reinstated. I have talked to the Canucks many times about this and have been told that since that sailing has been cancelled, the number of Islanders that go to Saturday games is the lowest number out of the other six days.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 13, 2009 10:01:41 GMT -8
I am not arguing to have the vessels sail almost empty. I am saying that route 2 should have its Saturday evening sailings on route 30. Customers and residences have requested that repeatedly. It is that BCF's logic is not understandable. I have been told that Saturday evening traffic on route 2 is just a little higher than the Monday to Thursday traffic. Unfortunately, that was not mentioned in the article. Of course Departure Bay residents would like quieter evenings. Who can blame them? Unfortunately, there's a major ferry terminal that's been there since 1953, and both schedule changes are supported by actual traffic figures, not just anecdotal remarks. Route 30 makes a small profit on operations: about $2.5 million last year. Dropping more of the lightly used Saturday evening sailings, and gaining some of route 2's midweek traffic, will push it more solidly into the black. Likewise, route 2's profitability is impacted by the money losing sailings that they're dropping, so the logic is most certainly understandable. This has nothing to do with concerts and Islanders wanting to get home on the same night. Concerts end after 2230h, if not 2330h. Staying on the entertainment topic, I know the Canucks organization would be very happy if the 2245h on Saturdays from TSA was reinstated. I have talked to the Canucks many times about this and have been told that since that sailing has been cancelled, the number of Islanders that go to Saturday games is the lowest number out of the other six days. [/font][/quote] Every single Canucks game has been sold out for several years now. They couldn't accommodate any more islanders even if the Coastal Inspiration could dock in False Creek and leave half an hour after the game, so I can't imagine that the route 30 schedule is of any interest to the team.
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Post by gordon on Oct 13, 2009 10:59:35 GMT -8
The Winter Schedule on route #30 continues until June 24th, this seems to be longer that last year. I would think that all the caapacity would be required for both Spring Break\Easter & the May Long Weekend.
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 13, 2009 11:24:39 GMT -8
I am not arguing to have the vessels sail almost empty. I am saying that route 2 should have its Saturday evening sailings on route 30. Customers and residences have requested that repeatedly. It is that BCF's logic is not understandable. I have been told that Saturday evening traffic on route 2 is just a little higher than the Monday to Thursday traffic. Unfortunately, that was not mentioned in the article. Of course Departure Bay residents would like quieter evenings. Who can blame them? Unfortunately, there's a major ferry terminal that's been there since 1953, and both schedule changes are supported by actual traffic figures, not just anecdotal remarks. Route 30 makes a small profit on operations: about $2.5 million last year. Dropping more of the lightly used Saturday evening sailings, and gaining some of route 2's midweek traffic, will push it more solidly into the black. Likewise, route 2's profitability is impacted by the money losing sailings that they're dropping, so the logic is most certainly understandable. This has nothing to do with concerts and Islanders wanting to get home on the same night. Concerts end after 2230h, if not 2330h. Staying on the entertainment topic, I know the Canucks organization would be very happy if the 2245h on Saturdays from TSA was reinstated. I have talked to the Canucks many times about this and have been told that since that sailing has been cancelled, the number of Islanders that go to Saturday games is the lowest number out of the other six days. [/font][/quote] Every single Canucks game has been sold out for several years now. They couldn't accommodate any more islanders even if the Coastal Inspiration could dock in False Creek and leave half an hour after the game, so I can't imagine that the route 30 schedule is of any interest to the team. [/quote] Horseshoe Bay residents would also like it to be quieter. What I am saying about the Saturday evening sailings on route 2 is to transfer them over to route 30 and increase the profitability overall.
Islanders have single, four game, six game, and other ticket packages to see the Canucks but that has been steadily declining and that is of interest to the team. Most of the ticket packs include a Saturday night game and that night is the most convenient for fans. The Canucks pride themselves as being all of BC's team and not having the 2245h sailing is wrong because there is a decent crowd that drives to TSA after the game on any of the other six nights.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 13, 2009 12:10:34 GMT -8
Horseshoe Bay residents would also like it to be quieter. What I am saying about the Saturday evening sailings on route 2 is to transfer them over to route 30 and increase the profitability overall. If you go over the annual reports, the background to the ferry services contract, and other documents and news releases over the years, you'll see that BC Ferries has a very good handle on where their traffic is coming from, where it wants to go, the growth and profit potential for routes and sailings, and the commercial/private mix. There is very little guessing involved with these cuts. No offense intended, hwy19man, but you have to have the numbers to back up your assumptions, and that puts you at a disadvantage with people who've got the figures for every sailing, every day of the year. Islanders have single, four game, six game, and other ticket packages to see the Canucks but that has been steadily declining and that is of interest to the team. Most of the ticket packs include a Saturday night game and that night is the most convenient for fans. The Canucks pride themselves as being all of BC's team and not having the 2245h sailing is wrong because there is a decent crowd that drives to TSA after the game on any of the other six nights. [/font][/quote] The Canucks also pride themselves on having a waiting list of 4000 people looking for 8000 season tickets. How upset do you think they are about the handful who are inconvenienced by a ferry schedule? Good grief, anyone who lives on Vancouver Island and expects to have season tickets to the Canucks is not totally grounded in reality. Support your local teams, and go see the Salmon Kings, or the Grizzlies, or the Clippers. You live on an island, for gawdsakes. You moved there for a reason, and surely that wasn't to be able to scoot over to the mainland and back any time you wanted to see a hockey game.
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Post by Nickfro on Oct 13, 2009 13:18:52 GMT -8
BC Ferries posted a SERVICE NOTICE today about the Route 2 service reduction. . . I will be travelling back to the mainland next Monday, most likely on the 5pm sailing. It'll be interesting to see how full it will be, as I'm sure a number of passengers will choose to take it instead of the 9pm.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 13, 2009 19:04:50 GMT -8
Horseshoe Bay residents who don't like the sound of ferries don't get one ounce of sympathy from me. Ahh ferries have only been coming and going there for just a few years now. Ahhh try coming up soon to 50... in a few years.
Like someone who has bought a downtown condo facing Coal Harbour complaining about sea planes or helicopters coming and going. Or cruise ships tooting their horns. We have NIMBY idiots in Toronto who have bought waterfront condos and now want to have the Toronto City Centre Airport closed. If you didn't do your homework or realize that the strip of tarmac just across that channel is duh a runway.
Thus endeth the rant.
I do think that if there were no other options Route 30 would get more volume. Certainly if the economy continues to strengthen and then shipping and trucking volume rebounds after the usual lag time, then we will see sailings added back.
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Post by Kahloke on Oct 13, 2009 19:16:04 GMT -8
We have NIMBY idiots in Toronto who have bought waterfront condos and now want to have the Toronto City Centre Airport closed. If you didn't do your homework or realize that the strip of tarmac just across that channel is duh a runway. Slightly off topic here, but...if I ever make it to Toronto, one of my goals is to fly Porter somewhere and take that little ferry across the channel. First, it would be fun to take off and land at that little airport, and second, I think that ferry is neat.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 13, 2009 19:37:06 GMT -8
Horseshoe Bay residents who don't like the sound of ferries don't get one ounce of sympathy from me. Ahh ferries have only been coming and going there for just a few years now. Ahhh try coming up soon to 50... in a few years. Like someone who has bought a downtown condo facing Coal Harbour complaining about sea planes or helicopters coming and going. Or cruise ships tooting their horns. We have NIMBY idiots in Toronto who have bought waterfront condos and now want to have the Toronto City Centre Airport closed. If you didn't do your homework or realize that the strip of tarmac just across that channel is duh a runway. Thus endeth the rant. Ah, come on, NE, you're losing your touch. A year ago, you would have been just warming up. When I was wandering around Horseshoe Bay a couple of weeks ago, I was actually reflecting on how well the ferry terminal shares the space with the town, especially when you consider how huge the terminal is, when all its approaches and holding area is taken into account. The saving grace is that it basically hugs the cliffside, and doesn't cut through the village, leaving a nice little retail and residential area. I think it's a bit of a fallacy that Horseshoe Bay residents are always complaining about the ferries. Yes, they've wanted input when the terminal has expanded, but after 56 years of living with the boats, I don't think too many people are under any illusion about living in Sleepy Hollow By the Sea.
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Post by hwy19man on Oct 13, 2009 22:40:28 GMT -8
Horseshoe Bay residents would also like it to be quieter. What I am saying about the Saturday evening sailings on route 2 is to transfer them over to route 30 and increase the profitability overall. If you go over the annual reports, the background to the ferry services contract, and other documents and news releases over the years, you'll see that BC Ferries has a very good handle on where their traffic is coming from, where it wants to go, the growth and profit potential for routes and sailings, and the commercial/private mix. There is very little guessing involved with these cuts. No offense intended, hwy19man, but you have to have the numbers to back up your assumptions, and that puts you at a disadvantage with people who've got the figures for every sailing, every day of the year. Islanders have single, four game, six game, and other ticket packages to see the Canucks but that has been steadily declining and that is of interest to the team. Most of the ticket packs include a Saturday night game and that night is the most convenient for fans. The Canucks pride themselves as being all of BC's team and not having the 2245h sailing is wrong because there is a decent crowd that drives to TSA after the game on any of the other six nights. [/font][/quote] The Canucks also pride themselves on having a waiting list of 4000 people looking for 8000 season tickets. How upset do you think they are about the handful who are inconvenienced by a ferry schedule? Good grief, anyone who lives on Vancouver Island and expects to have season tickets to the Canucks is not totally grounded in reality. Support your local teams, and go see the Salmon Kings, or the Grizzlies, or the Clippers. You live on an island, for gawdsakes. You moved there for a reason, and surely that wasn't to be able to scoot over to the mainland and back any time you wanted to see a hockey game.[/quote] Neil, no offense taken. In my amateur exploring, I have read reports, media releases, done research, talked to the trucking industry, small businesses, and have had verbal conversations and emails with Tourism Vancouver Island and the Nanaimo Chamber of Commerce. Through out all that I have been able to get numbers through these sources. Requesting figures from BCF is similar to being slammed into the end boards of an ice rink. I have been continuously denied. In the end, the NCC and Tourism VI do disagree with what BCF is doing. In the long run, cutting sailings makes ridership decline even further. That is what has happened on Saturday evenings with route 30 and it has led to having the last two trips on that route not sail for an even longer part of the year. I have a feeling that is what will happen on route 2.
That waiting list number is minimal compared to Montreal. The Canucks are not that upset about Islanders that cannot return home on a Saturday night but, they are concerned and keep statistics on how many Islanders come to the games as well as folks from other areas of the province. I did not say that Islanders purchase season tickets to the Canucks, just mini packs. Never mind the Salmon Kings but, do not forget about the other island based BCHL franchises, the Capitals and Bulldogs. The 2245h sailing on either side is very important for island based and Lower Mainland teams and their fans who join them on road trips. Island teams that play in Surrey or Burnaby do try for the 2245h. The same goes for mainland teams that play in Nanaimo. Now this cannot be done on any Saturday night through out the season, playoffs included. The further reduction on route 30 does affect a "wide range of people who need access to ferry crossings later at night."(as mentioned in the North Shore news article).
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