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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 17, 2008 5:14:57 GMT -8
re a WetCoastKid post from another thread, here is the start of a new thread: to: WetCoastKid: What were your impressions of the C-Renaissance, from your trip on her last weekend? Is the Super-C better than a Super-V ? Were you impressed? Were you comfortable? Are you looking forward to another ride?
I have now ridden on the C Renaissance twice, once back in March, and again last weekend; once in either direction, now. I have yet to ride on any of the others, though I suspect that a CC ride will come soon. As for the CI, with it working on route 30, it may be awhile till I get that Coastal experience.
I did not get a Spirit for my return trip to the mainland last Sunday, due to the RV marathon awards ceremony. I did, however, get the SoVI yesterday while coming back to Victoria to visit my mother.
The short answer to your question is that the Super V's are superior vessels to the Super C's. One reason is purely personal - I like the appearance of single enders better than that of double enders. The other reasons are more about my observations & practicalities, as follows:
- The decision to make deck six as main passenger deck and leave deck 5 as supplementary - you have to climb an extra flight of stairs which for many is a challenge. Deck 5 should have been the main deck, and the wheel houses should have been on deck 6. Deck 5 also seems to me to be somewhat dark and dreary, perhaps because the outer windows are so far in from the outside of the ship. The deck is nevertheless a good spot for TV lounges, computer/study carrels, video arcades, kids play areas, and seating for those who like to sleep while on the ferry.
- The extreme ends of the both deck 5 and deck 6 are not used as passenger view lounges (i.e. so that you can take in the forward view). On deck 5 wheel houses are in the way, and on deck 6 food service areas are using the space at both ends. If you want the best view you will have to buy a coffee & a Nanaimo bar. Food service areas should be in mid ship. On a related note, the cafeteria windows on the CR's deck six are streaked with dirt and need cleaning.
- The Sea West $10 extra lounge - I might consider shelling out for this on a Spirit, but not on a Coast Boat. The location is simply inferior.
- Access to elevators on the car decks - as you know, I was the parent of a profoundly handicapped daughter, who spent her life either on a bed, or in a wheel chair. I expect new build ferries to be very 'user friendly' to people in wheel chairs. The Spirits are excellent with parking areas adjacent to elevators at both ends of both car decks with room for perhaps sixteen vehicles per trip. The Coastals are not as good, and that is surprising given that they are fifteen years newer.
- Last Saturday morning we spent the best part of half an hour waiting in line for our turn to order breakfast in the cafeteria. The queue was pitifully slow. Perhaps they were short on staff and could not process people as fast as is normal. Once we finally got our meal it was soggy, luke warm, and so-so. This likely has nothing to do with the vessel. Nevertheless, on a Spirit, I would take a look at the length of the queue, and suggest to my wife that we go to the buffet. No such option on the CR - pity, eh?
- My overall impression is that the Spirits are also superior in terms of passenger comfort.
So you might ask "Is there anything about a Coastal that is, in your opinion, better?"
The outside passenger areas are more spacious and are overall better than on a Spirit. They also have better horns than the boring ones that the Spirits are blessed with. On my trip last Saturday, however, they sounded only the single tone horn as they were coming into Departure Bay. I know for a fact that the three tone horns on the Coastals sound just like those on the V's - great.
I encourage debate on this Coastals versus Spirits topic, probably as a new thread. What do others think? |
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Post by gordon on Oct 17, 2008 6:37:49 GMT -8
This may be slightly off topic but Can the Spirits operate on Route #2, or is a Double Ended ferry required to get into the tight terminal at Horseshoe bay?
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Post by Mike C on Oct 17, 2008 6:51:12 GMT -8
I prefer a Coastal better - more cabin space, more room to move around. You can't tell when the boat is full... until you stand in the cafeteria line. On the CR (I noticed it was pretty quick on the CI, so this doesn't apply there) I stood in line for literally a third of the sailing on Route 2, and had the same experience as WCK: not that great. Also, WCK brings up a good point about the SeaWest lounge (and most of us noticed this at the CR open-ship): The location, simply sucks. I'm not going to pay $10 for something I can see for free 50 feet down the hall. This may be slightly off topic but Can the Spirits operate on Route #2, or is a Double Ended ferry required to get into the tight terminal at Horseshoe bay? They have run single-enders in the past out of Horseshoe and Departure Bays (i.e. QoE extras) but a Spirit is simply too large. On a related note, as most of you already know, you cannot run a C-Class in Active Pass. That's why the vessels are where they are. |
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Mill Bay
Voyager 
Long Suffering Bosun
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Post by Mill Bay on Oct 17, 2008 9:10:13 GMT -8
I prefer a Coastal better - more cabin space, more room to move around. You can't tell when the boat is full... until you stand in the cafeteria line. On the CR (I noticed it was pretty quick on the CI, so this doesn't apply there) I stood in line for literally a third of the sailing on Route 2, and had the same experience as WCK: not that great. Also, WCK brings up a good point about the SeaWest lounge (and most of us noticed this at the CR open-ship): The location, simply sucks. I'm not going to pay $10 for something I can see for free 50 feet down the hall. This may be slightly off topic but Can the Spirits operate on Route #2, or is a Double Ended ferry required to get into the tight terminal at Horseshoe bay? They have run single-enders in the past out of Horseshoe and Departure Bays (i.e. QoE extras) but a Spirit is simply too large. On a related note, as most of you already know, you cannot run a C-Class in Active Pass. That's why the vessels are where they are. Ah-ha! The most common myth in BCFerries lore... you can in fact run a C-Class in Active Pass, and there are photos of them doing it. The catch is that they have to be run in Mode 2 while transiting the pass and at a reduced speed I believe. For whatever reasons of crew familiarity and route scheduling and so-on, the C's have generally not operated on Route 1, but for one good example of a C-class on route 1, consider a certain ferry that happened to go up on a certain reef at the entrance to Active Pass and... there you have it. As far as the Spirits... I really dislike them because they are generally loud and crowded when I'm on board, and people always smoke all over the outside deck. They also don't have a really good forward-viewing lounge. The Coastals have lots of nice lounge space and that nice top deck, but the noise problem here exists in their solariums which seem to funnel up the engine noises so you can both hear and feel the heavy thrumming quite distinctly. On both shipl classes, the place to be is on the upper cardeck at one of the windows or the open ends... good views, quiet and reasonably uncrowded (at least with people). |
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Oct 17, 2008 9:33:04 GMT -8
Both classes are large, soulless, and efficient. The layout of eating areas, lounges, and other passenger facilities on both are good. One complaint, esthetically about the Spirits: the drab, unadorned entrance area for foot passengers. That's the first thing you see, and it should look nicer.
Honorable mention to the Coastals for the floor to ceiling 'bay windows' on the upper car deck. The Spirits win, though, for being proper ships with a bow and stern. And, oh yah... we made 'em.
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Post by Hardy on Oct 17, 2008 17:03:23 GMT -8
On a related note, as most of you already know, you cannot run a C-Class in Active Pass. What tripe! This is simply NOT[/u] true!!! I think that we need a new header somewhere on this forum which states "C-class CAN run through Active Pass" and flashes or something... The caveat is that they have to run through the length of Active Pass in MODE-2, which is normally only used during docking - instead of the lead ("bow") propeller freewheeling/windmilling (whatever you want to call it - no power, just spinning idly), and relying solely on the aft ("stern" ) propeller to push AND steer, you have to put power to both props which aids the steering etc. This burns more fuel (running all the engines and loading up both props), and also reduces the maximum speed of the vessel (it can still keep schedule on Rte-1!). As use of the C-class on Rte-1 has dropped off to non-existant levels, the crews are NOT currently up to speed (trained) on running the C's through Active Pass. HOWEVER, please note that apparently the Coastals will ALSO be run in a similar fashion through Active Pass (ie: Mode-2), so I imagine that at least one SWB-based crew will be familiar with the procedure (albeit on the CC!). So please, lets put this C-class/Active Pass thing to BED once and for stinking all!  [/end rant] |
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Post by Mike C on Oct 17, 2008 17:30:20 GMT -8
Thank you for that unrelated, insightful report Hardy. By Reply 5 we have drifted completley off-topic.
The reason I said what I did, was because I didn't want to confuse the man, that's all... he asks so many questions, I didn't want him to ask what we were talking about. Next question he asks, you can answer Hardy.
I am sorry that I uplifted this rumpus, so let's rid ourselves of this whole C-Class thing.
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Post by gordon on Oct 17, 2008 17:30:53 GMT -8
How much is the service speed of 21 knots bereduced running the Cs through Active Pass in Mode 2?
How would it effect the schedule if at all?
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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Oct 17, 2008 18:16:28 GMT -8
How much is the service speed of 21 knots bereduced running the Cs through Active Pass in Mode 2? How would it effect the schedule if at all? Yes, to operate a C-Class in Mode two it would require the ship to slow down from its normal service speed. Unfortunately, I do not know what that specific speed would be... However, this would not affect the schedule because they are double-ended vessels thus eliminating turn arounds. |
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Neil
Voyager
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Post by Neil on Oct 17, 2008 18:41:55 GMT -8
This question just doesn't go away, does it? I think people can be excused for being confused about it, especially when David Hahn himself, in answer to a question I put to him at the AGM, stated flatly, "The Cs can't do Active Pass." Maybe he's not clear on the mode 1/2 thing; I don't know.
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Post by Hardy on Oct 17, 2008 20:13:40 GMT -8
How much is the service speed of 21 knots bereduced running the Cs through Active Pass in Mode 2? How would it effect the schedule if at all? Yes, to operate a C-Class in Mode two it would require the ship to slow down from its normal service speed. Quoted service speed is NOT actual service speed. Most of the time the boats don't break 18 or so as it is not economical with their hull form. As is quoted, Mode-2 is a slower operating speed, I don't know the specifics either, but for sake of argument, let's say 14-15 knots -- the distance of Active Pass in which Mode-2 must be used is relatively short, and therefore, the additional time taken to transit AP at the slower speed is really inconsequential -- it is more than made up for by the fact that the vessel does NOT need to do a pirouette at one end of her run (being double-ended). Again though, we are OFF-TOPIC ...  |
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Oct 17, 2008 20:22:56 GMT -8
I much prefer a Coastal over a Spirit
1) Horn sounds much better when it is a tri-tone
2) You cannot beat the deck space of a Coastal in comparison to a Spirit.
3) The Spirit seems crowded over half the time I've been on one.
4) Lots of space on a Coastal class vessel interior and exterior.
5) Eating with a view I think is cool to have and it is nice on a sunny day.
The Spirits were my favourites, but when the Coastals came along, they became my favourites second only to the Vs.
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Post by Scott on Oct 17, 2008 21:07:40 GMT -8
Overall I prefer the new Coastals to the Spirit vessels, but there are a couple locations on the Spirits that are the best in the fleet.
My favorite of all on-board-ferry-locations is the outside deck below the wheelhouse on the Spirit ships. Somehow, it's hardly even windy there (unless it's stormy out) and it's so quiet. I usually spend the majority of the trip out there if I can.
I don't know what deck number it is on the Spirits, but sometimes if it's busy they have the top outside deck open which is at the level of the bridge. You get a great view from there - I think it rivals the Coastals for elevation above the water.
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Post by WettCoast on Oct 17, 2008 21:40:28 GMT -8
Just another 'off topic' note re C class on route 1. Yes they can! The Alberni started its life running on route 1, making the crossing in 75 minutes. That is 25 minutes less than the time required by the V's in use on the run at that time. Following the 1979 grounding accident the Alberni was slowed down in Active Pass. I assume that the mode 2 requirement came into effect at that time. The total trip duration was increased by 5 minutes.
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Post by Hardy on Oct 18, 2008 1:15:34 GMT -8
Spirit's "top" upper outside only deck is numbered 7, and 7 is the number that shall be the uppermost outside sundeck on the Spirits. Not 8, not 6, but 7 and 7 only.  As for John H's favourite spot, yeah, that is a pretty cool one, looking down on the anchor gear. I think it would be even better down on that level (same as the footie embarkation point), but the view would not be as good. Other off-topic comments by myself are no longer being entertained due to self-moderation (and inflicting pain upon myself for letting myself drift off-topic). ** Self-moderator edit: Even thinly veiled references to going off topic shall result in your post being removed, and a potential ban or reduction in access to the forum ** |
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Post by Dane on Oct 19, 2008 18:18:23 GMT -8
WCK et al., I agree for the most part with the comments. I prefer traveling on the Spirit Class vessels more so than I do the Coastals overall. That said the difference is small and if both ships were available on the same route, like they will be, I would not modify my travel plans to get one over the other. As far as the interior is concerned I find the Spirits to just feel more open and roomy; brighter as well. The Coastals I find can be a bit dark in the early evening, maybe because all the lights are outside  But again, I think the Coastals are exceptional vessels, and a lot better than the C and V Class in almost every respect. Here are a few points made throughout this thread I felt compelled to comment on: - I like that the Coastal Cafe has the forward facing windows on the Coastal class. It does create a bit of a necessity to purchase food but it gives many people a chance to enjoy the view, and perhaps is a bit of a perk for making a purchase. I regularly sit in the Sitka lounge without purchasing food, in fact, other than my free cookie at the Open House don't think I have gotten any food there. - While I think the soon-to-be deployment of vessels on BC Ferries is a total gong show I do think it's wise that there is not a C on Rte 1. Not for any reason other than they lack the overall room that the S's, V's, New West, and Coastals have. I think a C may have also lead to a reduction in overall passenger license, but I'd have to look that up which I'm too tired to do right now - I love the poor location of the Sea West Lounge on the Coastals as I will never use it in all likelihood and am happy services your average rider is more likely to use have been left in areas with exceptional views. |
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Post by WettCoast on May 30, 2013 21:40:34 GMT -8
Comparing Spooks & Coast Boats - a thread revival!
A few days ago in the 'Weekend Randoms' thread there was a comment about
how spacious & uncrowded the 'Coastals' feel when compared to
'Spirits'. That prompted a number of responses as whether or not this
was real, or just a symptom of the shear number of foot passengers who
sail on route 1 vessels versus the other routes where you will find
Coastals sailing.
Anyways, I thought that I would resurrect an
old thread (Spirits vs. Coastals: which is better?) in which to put out
some comparative info, and invite others to participate also. This
thread started out life as one for expressing your feelings/opinions
about the two vessel classes. Now I want it to be more of a comparison
of facts. Hopefully, we would be able to put the argument to bed over
whether or not Spirits feel crowded & stuffy due to their design, or
its just a matter of passenger loads.
More to come tomorrow...
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Post by princessofvanfan on May 30, 2013 22:33:05 GMT -8
Just another 'off topic' note re C class on route 1. Yes they can! The Alberni started its life running on route 1, making the crossing in 75 minutes. That is 25 minutes less than the time required by the V's in use on the run at that time. Following the 1979 grounding accident the Alberni was slowed down in Active Pass. I assume that the mode 2 requirement came into effect at that time. The total trip duration was increased by 5 minutes. Actually, the Alberni sometimes avoided Active Pass and went around the south end of Saturna Island. I remember seeing her doing this off in the distance from the V class when we were in open water between Tsawwassen and Active Pass a couple of times back in the late 70's. Oh, and I prefer the Sprits over the Coastals. The Spirits are roomier, they look way cooler than a Coastal, and we built 'em right here in B.C. |
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Post by WettCoast on May 31, 2013 8:35:11 GMT -8
I will start this thread revival out with information on the C. Renaissance, used as a source of detailed information for all three Coast Boats. This information is from the publication ShipPax Designs 2008 and is 5 years old. I don't know if there has been any modifications to any of these ships such that the info presented here would be out-of-date. I expect that info for the C. Rennaisance might be slightly different due to it having the buffet rather than the Sitka Coffee Lounge. Anyways...    Notes: Passenger seating aboard Coastal class: Sitka Coffee - 208 Coastal Cafe - 297 Snack Bar (Deck 5) - 70 (often not available) Total catering - 575 Lounges Sea West - 54 (often not available) Deck 6 lounges - 431 Deck 5 lounge - 118 (often not available) Deck 5 'Flex' lounge - 229 (often not available) Study carrels (decks 5&6) - 20 Total seating in lounges = 852 Total seating including catering = 1427 Max Passenger License = 1604 Percentage of Max Pass that can be accommodated with a seat (1427/1604) = 89% ------- Add outdoor seating on Deck 7 = 376 Total seating inc catering, lounges & outdoors = 1803 Percentage of Max Pass that can be accommodated with a seat - outdoor inc (1803/1604) = 112% Other thoughts: Is it possible that more people remain on the car deck on the Coastal class as compared to a Spirit? Certainly, the upper car deck with its big window openings is an attractive place to hang out. ------- Next post similar information for the Spirits |
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Post by compdude787 on May 31, 2013 9:22:32 GMT -8
Even though the Spirits are single-ended (with a proper bow and stern), I don't like them because they look so ugly and mean-looking. The Coastals look much nicer and I think they are the nicest-looking large BCF vessel. The best-looking minor vessel is the Tenaka and I will be sad when she's retired.
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Post by Ferryman on May 31, 2013 9:59:40 GMT -8
I think the biggest disappointment to the vessels, are sometimes the lack of opportunity to run at their full potential sometimes. I liked the idea of having one on each Major Route, however it became evident right from the start where they would sail on a lower the Pax license and end up closing the majority of access to Deck 5. This is something that seems to always be the case on the Inspiration on Route 30. The Renaissance would also have Deck 5 closed alot of the time on Route 2. However, on Route 1 they of course need to run to their full potential to keep up with demand.
When two Coastals are the only ones running on Route 1, I noticed there seemed to be alot more vehicle overloads even throughout the winter. The Spirits tend to clean the lot much easier it seems, and they tend to sail almost full or are full all of the time anyways.
I used to be a big fan of the Coastals when they were brand new, but as time has gone on, I don't really care for them very much anymore. I've done a fair bit of traveling on the Coastal Celebration over the past few years, and I never appreciated the idea of having to either go to the buffet at an added price or go to the Cafeteria to end up being able to appreciate a forward or aft view while being inside and protected from the elements. Also, I've never quite understood that Catering services have taken presidence over having the better view instead of the Bridge. You'd think the bridge would always take presidence at the design phase to have the better view for navigational purposes. On top of all of that, I find the design flaw of the propellars slapping the surface of the water when the ship is empty to be a real disappointment. They also have a unique vibration which is more of a horizontal shaking as opposed to the traditional vertical vibration which I've never understood. That being said, I appreciate the double ended concept with the efficiences of being able to go straight out or into the docks.
I've always been torn about the Spirits as well, but in comparison with the two classes I'll take the Spirit. Conventional design, great outer deck space, and there's even a proper seating lounge that allows you to sit in comfort and enjoy the forward view. However the extra time spent on manoevering in and out of the docks can be a bit of a drag sometimes.
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Post by WettCoast on May 31, 2013 10:08:12 GMT -8
Even though the Spirits are single-ended (with a proper bow and stern), I don't like them because they look so ugly and mean-looking. The Coastals look much nicer and I think they are the nicest-looking large BCF vessel. The best-looking minor vessel is the Tenaka and I will be sad when she's retired. When this thread was started back in 2008 it was for the purpose of expressing opinions & feelings about the two classes of vessels. Now I would prefer that we stick to comparative stats & information and try to keep the opinions/feelings out of it. We also have had many threads discussing peoples opinions about which vessels are the nicest looking, etc. |
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Post by Mike C on May 31, 2013 10:41:40 GMT -8
I am still more partial to the Coastals, but I think I might be biased...
When I commute by ferry (i.e. when I am visiting family on the island, and am not traveling for leisure) I am on Route 30, and almost always with a vehicle. The choice between the Alberni and the Coastal Inspiration is almost always a no-brainer - the Alberni has a highly inadequate passenger lounge, and the only way to retain one's sanity, is to sit in one's vehicle for most of the crossing. The Inspiration provides more deck space to roam and more places to sit - I prefer to sit in the Sitka Coffee Lounge and watch the sunrise, or play crib with whoever is traveling with me, and that usually quieter space provides a good opportunity to do that, with an amazing view.
On Route 1, I dislike the Spirits on crowded sailings - the huge lounges (there are only three main seating areas), the pathetically small cafeteria seating area, and the sheer volume of people that they take on make the ship seem very crowded. School groups tend to dominate lounges with screaming kids, it's extraordinarily difficult to find a seat on a full sailing, and almost every passenger space on those ships (save for the SeaWest and Buffet) have this constant loudness. Because of adequate public transit on either end, I don't drive on Route 1, so my passenger experience relies entirely on the facilities upstairs. To this end, I also prefer the Coastals, due to what I feel like is a better spread-out of the passengers through the ship. As well, because of their faster operating speeds, the Coastals (and the New West) are more likely to make up time on long weekends and busy periods. Once a Spirit gets behind, it's usually behind for the rest of the day.
On less crowded sailings (early morning weekdays) I actually prefer the Spirits, as the forward viewing is awesome (and free), the cafeteria seating is adequate, and the lounges are much quieter.
We have had this discussion before - comparison of when a ship "feels full", and when it doesn't. I find the Coastals consistently perform well during high traffic periods with their crowd handling (unless Deck 5 is closed) and service speed. I don't think the Spirits perform as well, but I can see from a crew member perspective, the Spirits being the preferential choice.
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Koastal Karl
Voyager
Been on every BC Ferry now!!!!!
Posts: 7,747
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Post by Koastal Karl on May 31, 2013 12:28:07 GMT -8
I like the Spirit class boats and I always have and always will! I do not like though how the kids play area on the Spirits are not enclosed! That was a stupid idea! Still like the Coastals too on certain occasions!
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Post by WettCoast on May 31, 2013 13:23:47 GMT -8
Stats for the Spirit of British Columbia (as built, 1993)  Source: The Complete Encyclopedia of Steamships - Merchant Steamships 1798 - 2006 (John Batchelor & Christopher Chant) from Mr. DOT collectionNotes (based on data from 1993 publications introducing the SoBC): Passenger seating aboard Spirit class: Pacific Buffet - 200 Coastal Cafe - 297 Snack Bar (Deck 5) - 150 Total catering - 647Lounges Prom Deck Fwd - 288 Sun Deck Panarama Fwd - 442 Sun Deck Panarama Mid - 208 Sun Deck Panarama Aft - 150 (now SeaWest, originally Lantern Coffee Bar on SoVI) Work/Comp carrels - 34 Total seating in lounges = 1122Total seating including catering = 1769Max Passenger License = 2052Percentage of Max Pass that can be accommodated with a seat (1769/2052) = 86% ------- Add outdoor seating on Deck 6 = 380 Total seating inc catering, lounges & outdoors = 2149Percentage of Max Pass that can be accommodated with a seat (inc. outdoor - 2149/2052) = 105%
Further Notes:As mentioned, this info is for the SOBC and was accurate (I believe) in 1993 (20 years ago). Both Spirits have had significant changes/upgrades? since that time. I am unaware of any significant capacity changes except one. That would be the opening up of a small area of outdoor space & seating on Deck 7 (that had previously been a crew only area). That area has seating for 75 maybe 100 people. I am fairly sure that outdoor seating number listed above (380) does not include the deck 7 area. If anyone has current numbers for the Spirits I would be happy to use them to update this post.
I would like to have numbers on the total passenger space available on both vessel classes (e.g. total passenger space on decks 5,6 & 7 (including outer decks) measured in square metres or feet). I would also like to have the ceiling height on all passenger decks for both classes. I believe the numbers will be close, but perhaps a little higher on the Coastals. Then I could calculate the deck space per person. It could be that the deck space per person on a fully loaded Coastal is actually a little more than on a Spirit. I don't know. I suspect the difference is small. It may also be just a matter of the passenger license on the Spirits at 2000+ is tolerating more crowding than 1600+ on a Coastal. |
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to: WetCoastKid:
[/end rant]
