SolDuc
Voyager
West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
Posts: 2,055
|
Post by SolDuc on Feb 4, 2013 19:03:25 GMT -8
Actually, I'm pretty sure he does. WSF does not operate any interstate routes, and is therefore not under the jurisdiction of the federal government. Ferries operate state transportation routes and are state mandated. I know if the DOT in Washington state send the bill to the federal Government for all the interstates routes in would achieve funding for the fleet. Well, that resumes to higher taxes. Right now: Taxpayers pay $$ for Interstates to the state Your proposition: Taxpayers pay $$ for ferries, and the interstate bill is send to the federal government. But where does the federal government get the money? From the taxpyers. So it would result in higher taxes.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 19:10:41 GMT -8
I know if the DOT in Washington state send the bill to the federal Government for all the interstates routes in would achieve funding for the fleet. Well, that resumes to higher taxes. Right now: Taxpayers pay $$ for Interstates to the state Your proposition: Taxpayers pay $$ for ferries, and the interstate bill is send to the federal government. But where does the federal government get the money? From the taxpyers. So it would result in higher taxes. Every one in the country, if others states want that too.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 4, 2013 19:14:29 GMT -8
Washington State used to receive federal funding.
Several of our ferries were paid for by U.S. Housing and Urban Development grants. The most prominent examples are the E-State class, Supers and Jumbos.
To my knowledge, currently, present laws and regulations forbid it, though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 19:16:38 GMT -8
The Ministry of Transportation has to approve everything before it happens for BC Ferries.
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Feb 4, 2013 19:16:51 GMT -8
I don't want to have green slugs, thank you very much. And Washingtonians have experience with that privatized ferry system. Remember why WSF was formed back on June 1st, 1951? The Ministry of Transportation has to approve everything before it happens for BC Ferries. How does this have anything to do with what has been said in this thread anywhere?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 19:18:16 GMT -8
The Ministry of Transportation has to approve everything before it happens for BC Ferries. How does this have anything to do with what has been said in this thread anywhere? The DOT could do the same as the ministry does to BC Ferries.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 4, 2013 19:20:16 GMT -8
How does this have anything to do with what has been said in this thread anywhere? The DOT could do the same as the ministry does to BC Ferries. Those of us in Washington and those of us who care to preserve the legacy of our fleet would respectfully pass on that suggestion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 19:23:49 GMT -8
The DOT could do the same as the ministry does to BC Ferries. Those of us in Washington and those of us who care to preserve the legacy of our fleet would respectfully pass on that suggestion. It seems to work in BC. I think it does?
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Feb 4, 2013 19:25:26 GMT -8
The DOT could do the same as the ministry does to BC Ferries. Those of us in Washington and those of us who care to preserve the legacy of our fleet would respectfully pass on that suggestion.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 19:48:36 GMT -8
Did the Liberals send you here?
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 4, 2013 21:02:53 GMT -8
Did the Liberals send you here? I'm a Liberal and I didn't send him here! LOL
|
|
|
Post by compdude787 on Feb 4, 2013 21:56:40 GMT -8
[Semi-privitazation of the ferry system] seems to work in BC. Did the Liberals send you here? Wait, I thought liberals would not want such a thing. Liberals, (aka "left-wingers" or "the Left") at least in America, can be extremely radical as to desire socialism, and not have free-markets and private companies running things. Thus, having WSF become semi-private would go against the views of the Left, which predominates politics in Seattle, which has the most influence in Olympia and silences all the more conservative voices outside of Seattle. My Government teacher told us that Seattle is like a political bubble; as soon as you step outside the Seattle city limits, people become more conservative in their political views. Having done a little research on your liberal party, I find the BC Liberals are center to center-right on the political spectrum, as opposed to left-wing as they are here in the US!
|
|
|
Post by compdude787 on Feb 4, 2013 22:00:17 GMT -8
The DOT could do the same as the ministry does to BC Ferries. Those of us in Washington and those of us who care to preserve the legacy of our fleet would respectfully pass on that suggestion. Oh yeah, we don't want our ferries to be built in Germany, we want them to be built here. Quite frankly, I could care less if the ferries are built in Washington or not, but as long as they're built in America, that's all that matters to me.
|
|
|
Post by Mike on Feb 4, 2013 22:05:17 GMT -8
SC Commuter was referring to the BC Liberal party, as they were the ones who decided to make BC Ferries into a quasi-private company.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 4, 2013 22:07:07 GMT -8
I'd rather they be built here. Taxpayer dollars going to funding the construction of ferry vessels operating on Washington waters, should ensure that the vessels be built with Washington labor.
What the state of Washington should do, is crack down on the high shipyard labor costs.
|
|
|
Post by compdude787 on Feb 4, 2013 22:14:30 GMT -8
The Interstate highways should go to federal government just like Trans Canada Highways are federal founded. Though this doesn't have anything to do with ferries, I'll just say this: No, just no! There are so many more Interstate highways and it would be too costly to have them be maintained by the federal government. I say the states do a fine job of maintaining them anyway. They're already sticking their nose in our faces enough, and we have $16 trillion in debt and growing, $1 trillion in budget deficit and growing, and a president that sucks more than Bush did (Bush was okay, but Obama is a complete fail). He's taken over the healthcare system in an extremely unpopular law called "Obamacare," which will be a massive expansion of federal government and will decrease the quality of our healthcare system. You Canadians have socialized healthcare and it sucks, so much so that when you're denied care by your gov't, you come across the border to America to get much better healthcare. You can tell that I'm a conservative, living in the liberal (left-wing) city of Seattle . I think WSF needs to increase its efficiency, starting by replacing the gas-guzzling engines in the KdTs with more efficient ones as "lifc" has suggested multiple times. To my annoyance, David Moseley doesn't want to do this, and he thinks that the 6000hp engines are justified, even though such engines are more powerful than the ones on the larger Evergreen State class AND the Issaquah class! Moseley is a typical government bureaucrat, who fits the mold of the typical government agency leader, which is to increase inefficiency of your agency and drive up costs for taxpayers. I HATE that mentality of bureaucrats!!!!
|
|
|
Post by compdude787 on Feb 4, 2013 22:20:34 GMT -8
I'd rather they be built here. Taxpayer dollars going to funding the construction of ferry vessels operating on Washington waters, should ensure that the vessels be built with Washington labor. What the state of Washington should do, is crack down on the high shipyard labor costs. Ah, yeah that's a good point. The issue is that the costs are so high because of the fact that oftentimes Vigor is the only shipyard to bid on these contracts, and so they just jack the price up so they can make tons of money, not having to worry about a competitor undercutting them in price and getting the bid. Companies shouldn't make a huge profit at the expense of taxpayers, so what would help is to introduce some competition by having other out-of-state shipyards compete. Competition is good for businesses!
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 4, 2013 22:28:32 GMT -8
The Interstate highways should go to federal government just like Trans Canada Highways are federal founded. Though this doesn't have anything to do with ferries, I'll just say this: No, just no! There are so many more Interstate highways and it would be too costly to have them be maintained by the federal government. I say the states do a fine job of maintaining them anyway. They're already sticking their nose in our faces enough, and we have $16 trillion in debt and growing, $1 trillion in budget deficit and growing, and a president that sucks more than Bush did (Bush was okay, but Obama is a complete fail). He's taken over the healthcare system in an extremely unpopular law called "Obamacare," which will be a massive expansion of federal government and will decrease the quality of our healthcare system. You Canadians have socialized healthcare and it sucks, so much so that when you're denied care by your gov't, you come across the border to America to get much better healthcare. You can tell that I'm a conservative, living in the liberal (left-wing) city of Seattle . I think WSF needs to increase its efficiency, starting by replacing the gas-guzzling engines in the KdTs with more efficient ones as "lifc" has suggested multiple times. To my annoyance, David Moseley doesn't want to do this, and he thinks that the 6000hp engines are justified, even though such engines are more powerful than the ones on the larger Evergreen State class AND the Issaquah class! Moseley is a typical government bureaucrat, who fits the mold of the typical government agency leader, which is to increase inefficiency of your agency and drive up costs for taxpayers. I HATE that mentality of bureaucrats!!!! I will respectfully disagree with this in every sentiment. I say that because it's conservatives who've largely starved government of the needed revenue to properly maintain the interstate highway system and other avenues of infrastructure. There's loads of irrefutable evidence to back those facts up.
For instance, let's have a look at the following numbers, and how they correlate to conservative-led tax cuts and budget deficits.
These numbers are sourced from the American Society of Civil Engineers, U.S. Census Bureau, Federal Highway Adminstration (U.S. DOT), and the Congressional Budget Office.
590,750: Number of bridges in the United States.
160,570: Number of bridges in the United States rated structurally deficient or functionally obsolete* as of 2003.
(Functionally obsolete = no longer meeting current design and construction standards)
Federal, local, and state governments would rather cut corners on infrastructure spending than fund basic maintenance. By this, specifically this means curtailing government revenue by way of tax cuts.
2: Number of times Republican Minnesota governor Tim Pawlenty vetoed legislation that would have raised the state’s gas tax to pay for transportation maintenance needs.
90: Percentage of the interstate highway budget that comes from the federal government.
$1.6 trillion: Total investment needed to fix all infrastructure deficiencies as of 2005.
$7.3 billion: Cost per year to prevent further deterioration of all bridge deficiencies.
And it’s not just bridges. The 50-year-old interstate highway system is decaying and in need of modernization, too.
181 million: Population in 1960.
74 million: Vehicles registered in 1960.
296 million: Population in 2005.
247.7 million: Vehicles registered in 2005.
With current tax revenues in place, funding levels aren’t even adequate for basic maintenance.
$75.9 billion to $92 billion: Estimated annual spending needed at all levels of government to maintain highway system. $106.9 billion to $125.6 billion: Estimated annual spending at all levels of government to improve highway system. $59.4 billion: Annual amount currently spent on highway maintenance by all levels of government.
And it’s not just bridges and roads. Infrastructure of all types faces neglect and funding shortfalls.
$390 billion: 2002 EPA estimate of investment over the next 20 years needed to replace existing wastewater treatment systems and build new ones to meet increasing demand.
$151 billion: 2001 EPA estimate of investment over the next 20 years needed to repair, replace, and upgrade the nation’s 55,000 community drinking water systems to protect public health.
$6.1 billion: Estimated cost of maintenance backlog in the National Park System (2005).
$16 billion: Cost over the next three years, in addition to the $35 billion already spent, to modernize the nation’s air traffic control system.
80: Percentage of locks maintained by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers that will be functionally obsolete by 2020.
And just for comparison’s sake, here’s another budget figure:
$9 billion: Low-end estimated cost per month of the war in Iraq (Derived from 2005 figures)
In terms of Washington State Ferries, before the MVET was repealed in 1999, 40 percent of the MVET revenue generated went to the ferry system. 10 percent went to public transit, and the remaining portion generated went to the state's general fund for WSDOT roadway maintenance.
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Feb 4, 2013 22:38:29 GMT -8
Did the Liberals send you here? Wait, I thought liberals would not want such a thing. Liberals, (aka "left-wingers" or "the Left") at least in America, can be extremely radical as to desire socialism, and not have free-markets and private companies running things. Thus, having WSF become semi-private would go against the views of the Left, which predominates politics in Seattle, which has the most influence in Olympia and silences all the more conservative voices outside of Seattle. My Government teacher told us that Seattle is like a political bubble; as soon as you step outside the Seattle city limits, people become more conservative in their political views. Having done a little research on your liberal party, I find the BC Liberals are center to center-right on the political spectrum, as opposed to left-wing as they are here in the US! The term 'Liberals' here in Canada refers to a centrist political party on the national level, and a center-right political party at the BC provincial level.
|
|
|
Post by WettCoast on Feb 4, 2013 22:42:20 GMT -8
SC Commuter was referring to the BC Liberal party, as they were the ones who decided to make BC Ferries into a quasi-private company. Just to confuse you all south of the 49th, the BC Liberal Party should actually be called the BC Tea Bag Party. They are not 'liberals'. And no, you do not want to follow our semi-privatization experiment. It has been a failure. I expect it to be undone after the May BC election. And, lastly, keep on with building your boats at home. Keep American skilled ship yard workers working, but by all means do what you can to control costs.
|
|
|
Post by Political Incorrectness on Feb 4, 2013 23:21:55 GMT -8
The Interstate highways should go to federal government just like Trans Canada Highways are federal founded. Though this doesn't have anything to do with ferries, I'll just say this: No, just no! There are so many more Interstate highways and it would be too costly to have them be maintained by the federal government. I say the states do a fine job of maintaining them anyway. They're already sticking their nose in our faces enough, and we have $16 trillion in debt and growing, $1 trillion in budget deficit and growing, and a president that sucks more than Bush did (Bush was okay, but Obama is a complete fail). He's taken over the healthcare system in an extremely unpopular law called "Obamacare," which will be a massive expansion of federal government and will decrease the quality of our healthcare system. You Canadians have socialized healthcare and it sucks, so much so that when you're denied care by your gov't, you come across the border to America to get much better healthcare. You can tell that I'm a conservative, living in the liberal (left-wing) city of Seattle . I think WSF needs to increase its efficiency, starting by replacing the gas-guzzling engines in the KdTs with more efficient ones as "lifc" has suggested multiple times. To my annoyance, David Moseley doesn't want to do this, and he thinks that the 6000hp engines are justified, even though such engines are more powerful than the ones on the larger Evergreen State class AND the Issaquah class! Moseley is a typical government bureaucrat, who fits the mold of the typical government agency leader, which is to increase inefficiency of your agency and drive up costs for taxpayers. I HATE that mentality of bureaucrats!!!! Since you are talking about my favourite topic. Reality is, we have the USDOT, the Federal Highway Administration (FWHA), and your local DOT (in this case WSDOT). So in terms of bureaucracy, ya have quite a bit. You have the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials (AASHTO) to bring them all together. In terms of funding the roadways, in Montana, 90% of funding comes from the Highway Trust fund which has been bailed out by $50 billion over the last 4 years. When it comes to funding other transportation, there is this mentality that roads pay for themselves. As we can see, that just isn't the truth and we are prolonging maintenance where as other systems are having to keep up maintenance standards in order to continue operating. If it wasn't for the State Legislature, we could technically have an MVET again which I think would be a great way to encourage those with luxury vehicles to consider opting for more fuel efficient ones. There have been multiple ideas floated such as a dedicated gas tax for the ferries, but highway users will complain and say ferry patrons should fork over without realizing the farebox recovery ratio of the ferries is quite competitive with roadways. Some have proposed a vehicle miles traveled tax (VMT) but I know that would adversley effect rural dwellers and those who do jobs that require frequent use of a vehicle. I am not sure what is the best answer but we need to do a better job of maintaining our transportation system, a better job of investing in capital projects for the most practical purposes rather than injecting toxic politics that leads to decisions such as 3rd rail systems into exurban areas in the Bay Area.
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 4, 2013 23:23:22 GMT -8
Wait, I thought liberals would not want such a thing. Liberals, (aka "left-wingers" or "the Left") at least in America, can be extremely radical as to desire socialism, and not have free-markets and private companies running things. Thus, having WSF become semi-private would go against the views of the Left, which predominates politics in Seattle, which has the most influence in Olympia and silences all the more conservative voices outside of Seattle. My Government teacher told us that Seattle is like a political bubble; as soon as you step outside the Seattle city limits, people become more conservative in their political views. As a Liberal, I take offense to this. I've lived in cities and I currently live in a very rural setting outside of Shelton. And I happen to be Liberal. The word "Liberal" comes from the Latin word "Liberalis" which is a political philosophy or worldview founded on ideas of liberty and equality. Most Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but generally they support ideas such as free and fair elections, civil rights, freedom of the press, freedom of religion, free trade, and private property. We totally believe in the free-market philosophy, however what we don't believe in - is an *unregulated* free market philosophy (aka Laissez-faire) where there are no rules. Regulation of the various markets is necessary to eliminate fraud and other means of deceptive business and market practices. Most Liberals also don't believe in not having private enterprise. You'll be amazed to find most of us support it. We just don't see how it's effective to privatize certain aspects of government (roadway maintenance, government healthcare, etc.) Also, Liberals got women the right to vote. Liberals got African-Americans the right to vote. Liberals created Social Security and lifted millions of elderly people out of poverty and homelessness. Liberals also ended segregation. Liberals passed the Civil Rights Act, and the Voting Rights Act. Liberals created Medicare. Liberals passed the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act. What did Conservatives do? They opposed them on every one of those things...every one! We also believe workers should have fair rights and fair pay. Conservatives oppose it. Also, every single technological feat, every historical milestone, every single major achievement in this country, be they social, economic, or political, has always happened under Liberal leadership. The rest, can be held off for another thread or another discussion, but I take offense to Liberals being bad for the country.
|
|
|
Post by Political Incorrectness on Feb 4, 2013 23:27:12 GMT -8
SC Commuter was referring to the BC Liberal party, as they were the ones who decided to make BC Ferries into a quasi-private company. Just to confuse you all south of the 49th, the BC Liberal Party should actually be called the BC Tea Bag Party. They are not 'liberals'. And no, you do not want to follow our semi-privatization experiment. It has been a failure. I expect it to be undone after the May BC election. And, lastly, keep on with building your boats at home. Keep American skilled ship yard workers working, but by all means do what you can to control costs. WCK, I am going to have to strongly disagree with you. Right now with Washington State, we are currently in a budget deficit of $1.5 billion for the next biennium. The state by not permitting competition has effectively created a monopoly. Part of the issue with the KDTs was the numerous change orders which to me signals that the project was rushed too quickly and not planned very well. However, for double the cost of the Island Home, we need to permit competition in order to provide the taxpayer a better deal. My father works for Vigor and like any corporation now of days, they have made progress in diversifying. They should have to compete instead of being given a monopoly because taxpayers want the best bang for the buck right now. Telecom has a monopoly where there is only one phone provider and one cable provider. Effectively meaning that each provider can raise their prices and not innovate. If for say someone could also use the same cable lines to provide service at a better price and provide better service, consumers would go to that service. So why not allow the same in ship building?
|
|
|
Post by Steve Rosenow on Feb 4, 2013 23:32:03 GMT -8
I don't agree with any assessment a new boat be built out of Washington waters. A recent news story on KOMO News stated that the construction of the KDTs and the Olympic Class provided a $15 million economic boost annually to the economy of Whidbey Island alone.
I would much rather prefer the shipbuilding jobs be kept here and provide a local economic boost, than see our taxpayer dollars be sent elsewhere.
The state should reign in on cost overruns, but IMO I don't see the need to build elsewhere.
And the KDTs aside, Vigor (formerly Todd Shipyards), builds damn fine ferries for WSF.
|
|
|
Post by Mike C on Feb 4, 2013 23:59:18 GMT -8
I don't agree with any assessment a new boat be built out of Washington waters. A recent news story on KOMO News stated that the construction of the KDTs and the Olympic Class provided a $15 million economic boost annually to the economy of Whidbey Island alone. I would much rather prefer the shipbuilding jobs be kept here and provide a local economic boost, than see our taxpayer dollars be sent elsewhere. The state should reign in on cost overruns, but IMO I don't see the need to build elsewhere. And the KDTs aside, Vigor (formerly Todd Shipyards), builds damn fine ferries for WSF. Ah yes, this is one of my favourite debates on this forum. The reality of today is that shipbuilding, like most industries, are globalized: the bids and costs need to remain competitive in order to compete with shipyards around the world. I think that if the cost outweighs the economic benefit provided, then it should go offshore, specifically to a place like FSG where they specialize in high-quality Ro-Ro products. We received a high quality product from them, compared to a relatively mediocre product with massive budgetary overruns built here at home during the same time frame. That being said, I can't recall any discussion surrounding low-quality products from WA shipyards sailing in WA waters since the Issaquah-class gong show. So I think as long as the state is able to keep costs competitive, or at least within the range of economic benefit, I think building at home is a wise choice.
|
|