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Post by SS San Mateo on Sept 5, 2007 12:07:14 GMT -8
PT Ferries in dry dockwww.ptleader.com/main.asp?SectionID=21&SubSectionID=21&ArticleID=18669&TM=51239.72By Barney Burke Maybe one of the reasons that the 80-year-old Steel Electric ferries are still sailing out of Port Townsend is that they're not all that old. "There's not much of the original steel left," said Ron Wohlfrom, pointing to the few original hull plates on M/V Quinault held in place by rivets, not welds. Wohlfrom, a project engineer for Washington State Ferries, is overseeing the replacement of the stern tubes on the Steel Electric ferries Illahee and Quinault at Todd Pacific Shipyards on Harbor Island, in Seattle. Standing under the 74-foot-wide, 256-foot-long Quinault, Wohlfrom estimates that about 80 percent of the original hull plates have been replaced over the years. Also, he notes, the four Steel Electrics were "sponsoned-out" in the 1950s and 1980s; that term refers to enlarging a vessel by building a new hull. "We can continue to repair them," said Wohlfrom of the ferries, built in the San Francisco Bay Area in 1927 and acquired by WSF in 1951. Because of problems with the Steel Electric ferries, peak-season two-boat ferry service from Port Townsend to Keystone is ending three weeks early this year. Two of those four ferries are in dry dock now, and a third has been ordered out of service by the U.S. Coast Guard as of Sept. 9, when the Wooden Boat Festival concludes. One component that was never replaced is the cast iron "stern tubes." Each ferry has two stern tubes, into which the propeller shafts are inserted. The new stern tubes must be made of steel, not cast iron, and each one is custom-made, said Wohlfrom. Large holes have been cut at each end of the car decks on Illahee and Quinault so that equipment can lift the propeller shafts out of the way and remove the stern tubes. A look inside the tubes quickly shows why they're being replaced: They are badly pitted from corrosion and show obvious wear from eight decades of use. One of the stern tubes on Illahee developed a crack after it was taken out of dry dock earlier this year; that leak was estimated at five gallons per minute (gpm). In addition, Illahee had a 1/8-inch pinhole in its hull, which was leaking one to two gallons a minute, said Hadley Greene, a WSF spokeswoman. Each Steel Electric ferry has two bilge pumps that can each pump 300 gpm, said Greene. In addition, the fire pumps in each ferry's two engine rooms can each pump an additional 800 gpm if needed. After a crack developed on one of Illahee's stern tubes, WSF officials decided to replace the stern tubes on Quinault as well. No decision has been made on replacing the tubes on Klickitat and Nisqually, which are currently in service on the Port Townsend-Keystone route. Although the numbers aren't final yet, the cost of replacing stern tubes, removing old concrete from the hulls, and other urgent repairs on the Illahee and Quinault alone is approaching $4 million, said Greene. So far, said Wohlfrom, the concrete in the hulls of the Steel Electrics has been found to be in good shape and not contributing to erosion. It's common practice to use small amounts of concrete on the inside of a hull, he said, to ensure that water drains to bilge pump intakes and does not accumulate in places where it is not readily visible. The lack of any original blueprints is only one of the challenges faced by WSF in keeping the antique Steel Electrics running, said Wohlfrom. "It's hard finding someone with dry docks big enough," Wohlfrom said. Of all the shipyards in Puget Sound, only two - Todd Pacific on Harbor Island and Dakota Creek in Anacortes - are large enough to handle WSF ferries, he said.
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Post by zman on Sept 7, 2007 20:47:30 GMT -8
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Post by BreannaF on Sept 10, 2007 21:49:53 GMT -8
So, remind me....................
What would have to be done to get another ferry able to operate on the PT_Keystone run. Is the issue berth width, water depth at Keystone, or what else?
It just seems that if having no steel-electrics available in the near future is such a relatively high probability, then somebody should be giving more than a passing thought to what any real alternatives might be?
So, if the S-E's suddenly cease to exist, and we have the fleet we have to work with at the moment, then what ARE the options being discussed? Or not being discussed?
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Post by hergfest on Sept 10, 2007 22:47:31 GMT -8
There are no other options. The Rhody is small enough, but the coast guard won't let her operate in the open water or cross shipping lanes. Same for the Hiyu. A WSF offical was quoted in one of the papers saying they had done a nationwide search for used vessels but nothing came up as usable for the route. So if the Steel Electrics are pulled, there is no PT-Keystone route.
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Post by Barnacle on Sept 11, 2007 18:02:50 GMT -8
^ What he said.
BCF had one boat that met the criteria for the depth of Keystone Harbor, but it was only capable of nine knots and would get swept out to sea on the first bull ebb.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Sept 12, 2007 6:46:05 GMT -8
A temporary Pt. Townsend-Clinton route would be out of the question as well. Lack of vessels (there would be at most 4 reserve vessels if all of the steel-electrics were taken out of service and that number would most likely be less than that) would be an issue.
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Post by hergfest on Sept 12, 2007 20:44:43 GMT -8
They do have two slips at Clinton so it is doable, wonder how long the trip would be?
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,948
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Post by FNS on Sept 12, 2007 22:15:25 GMT -8
They do have two slips at Clinton so it is doable, wonder how long the trip would be? About 90 minutes aboard a fast Superferry. It took this amount of time for a Super and a Jumbo (taking turns) to do the trips between Edmonds and Port Townsend after when the west half of the Hood Canal Bridge sank in a windstorm in February 1979. The TILLIKUM took two hours to do the trip as she phased out this run in 1980 when auto ferries began appearing on the Canal.
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Post by BreannaF on Sept 13, 2007 7:22:06 GMT -8
OK, so the route is not going to exist without these particular ferries, or their far off replacements. So, I guess the hard question becomes whether we even need the route or not. Who uses it? - Tourists. They might be able to go some other way. - Travelers from the Seattle area to PT, via Mukilteo and Keystone. They can really take the Kingston ferry and the Hood Canal Bridge and make better time. - Travelers from North of Everett (i.e. Bellingham and such) to the Olympic Peninsula. These folks will have a big 'ol detour without this route. But before we start going from Clinton to PT or some such nonsense, just how much time does that save over a Kingston/HC Bridge detour, anyway? That might be a hard sell. (But it WOULD be fun to ride.) Besides, for that crowd, something like Anacortes to PT might make more sense. (Yeah, I know, it's longer, I think.) Or ,the way Washington's "leaders" tend to lead the state, the answer will likely be to just abandon the whole thing for a while.
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Post by In Washington on Sept 13, 2007 8:34:11 GMT -8
The riders who depend on this route are kind of forgotten. A few trucking companies use this route on a daily basis to get products to the paper mill and also out further on the Olympic Penisula. These come from points north of Anacortes including B.C..
The other customer that is forgotten is the Navy (I know... I keep mentioning them...) to get people and goods back and forth between Indian Island, Bangor and PSNS to Naval Air Station Whidbey.
Tourism can be overlooked by WSF but pressure from the Navy and private trucking companies is harder to ignore.
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Post by old_wsf_fan on Sept 15, 2007 12:04:18 GMT -8
Well as of 9-15-07, the Illahee is back in the water. I was driving across the West Seattle Freeway and spotted the Illahee out of drydock this morning.
I assume she will have to under go sea trials before the CG will let her sail again.
Is there a possibility of a return to two boat service at PT this year or is it done for the year.
I have heard that traffic is horrible on that route since the Nisqually was removed from service.
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Post by Barnacle on Sept 15, 2007 14:58:11 GMT -8
It's done.
The Illahee is heading north to relieve the Evergreen, last I heard.
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Post by old_wsf_fan on Sept 16, 2007 15:23:46 GMT -8
Looks like the Q-boat is done as well. I didn't see her in drydock today.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Sept 16, 2007 16:24:46 GMT -8
So are they going to put one back into service on the Port Townsend to Keystone run? There has been hours of waits every day since they went down to one boat.
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Post by Barnacle on Sept 17, 2007 16:53:08 GMT -8
Not that I know of. I still don't know what the Quinault's operational status is... Illahee should be up here tonight though.
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Oct 3, 2007 8:16:57 GMT -8
Latest News Item on the Steel-Electric's... apparently someone, thinks they're a disaster waiting to happen.
Published: Wednesday, October 3, 2007
Group says old ferries unsafe By Scott North Herald Writer
A government watchdog group on Tuesday accused Washington State Ferries of courting disaster by continuing to operate four 80-year-old ferries.
The state's four Steel Electric-class vessels have been beset this year by leaks, cracks and questions, and more than $3.5 million in unanticipated repairs. None meets Coast Guard standards in effect since the mid-1950s for watertight hull compartments.
The nonprofit Evergreen Freedom Foundation on Tuesday posted an item on its Web site describing the 1927-vintage ferries as "Washington state's Titanic."
"They are operating on Coast Guard waiver. This is a disaster waiting to happen," the group's president, Bob Williams, wrote.
The group chided ferry officials and state leaders for not replacing the vessels earlier, in spite of Legislative approval and funding for new ferries in 2001.
Mike Anderson, the ferry system's executive director, last week told lawmakers that the Steel Electrics are "nearing the end of their useful life" and that one, the Nisqually, may be too far gone to salvage.
Results of a hull survey that may help determine the Nisqually's fate are expected next week, said Marta Coursey, communication director for the ferry system.
The Steel Electric ferries are the only vessels in the state's fleet small enough and agile enough to navigate the rough water and narrow harbors between Keystone on Whidbey Island and Port Townsend on the Olympic Peninsula.
Their potential loss has ferry officials acknowledging that the route could be closed if an alternative to the Steel Electrics is not found soon.
That's unacceptable when the state is pursuing construction of four new ferries, all too large to replace the Steel Electrics, said Tom Henry, deputy communications director for the Evegreen Freedom Foundation.
"If the issue is moving people and cars across the waterways, you've got to build vessels that can handle those waterways," he said.
In order to prevent the route from being shut down, Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, D-Camano Island, last week said she may push ferry system officials to redraft recently approved plans for building four new 144-car ferries over the next several years.
She wants the state to instead consider building two ferries that will fit into Keystone Harbor on Whidbey, something only the Steel Electrics can now do. The 144-car ferries the state wants to build are simply too big to serve the route.
The state has wrestled much of the year with a string of hull cracks and other problems on its oldest boats. In March, ferry officials operated the Klickitat for two days with a six-inch crack in the hull.
The latest troubles have revolved around corrosion of the stern tubes, the cast-iron pipes that house the ferries' propeller shafts where they run through the hull. The stern tubes have been in salt water since 1927, when the Steel Electrics were first launched in California's San Francisco Bay.
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Post by SS Shasta on Oct 3, 2007 9:48:25 GMT -8
Latest News Item on the Steel-Electric's... apparently someone, thinks they're a disaster waiting to happen. Published: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 Group says old ferries unsafeBy Scott North Herald Writer A government watchdog group on Tuesday accused Washington State Ferries of courting disaster by continuing to operate four 80-year-old ferries. The state's four Steel Electric-class vessels have been beset this year by leaks, cracks and questions, and more than $3.5 million in unanticipated repairs. None meets Coast Guard standards in effect since the mid-1950s for watertight hull compartments. The nonprofit Evergreen Freedom Foundation on Tuesday posted an item on its Web site describing the 1927-vintage ferries as "Washington state's Titanic." "They are operating on Coast Guard waiver. This is a disaster waiting to happen," the group's president, Bob Williams, wrote. The group chided ferry officials and state leaders for not replacing the vessels earlier, in spite of Legislative approval and funding for new ferries in 2001. Mike Anderson, the ferry system's executive director, last week told lawmakers that the Steel Electrics are "nearing the end of their useful life" and that one, the Nisqually, may be too far gone to salvage. Results of a hull survey that may help determine the Nisqually's fate are expected next week, said Marta Coursey, communication director for the ferry system. The Steel Electric ferries are the only vessels in the state's fleet small enough and agile enough to navigate the rough water and narrow harbors between Keystone on Whidbey Island and Port Townsend on the Olympic Peninsula. Their potential loss has ferry officials acknowledging that the route could be closed if an alternative to the Steel Electrics is not found soon. That's unacceptable when the state is pursuing construction of four new ferries, all too large to replace the Steel Electrics, said Tom Henry, deputy communications director for the Evegreen Freedom Foundation. "If the issue is moving people and cars across the waterways, you've got to build vessels that can handle those waterways," he said. In order to prevent the route from being shut down, Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, D-Camano Island, last week said she may push ferry system officials to redraft recently approved plans for building four new 144-car ferries over the next several years. She wants the state to instead consider building two ferries that will fit into Keystone Harbor on Whidbey, something only the Steel Electrics can now do. The 144-car ferries the state wants to build are simply too big to serve the route. The state has wrestled much of the year with a string of hull cracks and other problems on its oldest boats. In March, ferry officials operated the Klickitat for two days with a six-inch crack in the hull. The latest troubles have revolved around corrosion of the stern tubes, the cast-iron pipes that house the ferries' propeller shafts where they run through the hull. The stern tubes have been in salt water since 1927, when the Steel Electrics were first launched in California's San Francisco Bay. Perhaps we need to consider the source a bit on this one . This Evergreen group likely knows less about operating ferry vessels than I do. From what I read, they tend to be a far right wing group that is often hostile to the needs of working people. They frequently oppose even modest tax increases or bond issues needed for improving public services.
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Mill Bay
Voyager
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,886
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Post by Mill Bay on Oct 3, 2007 10:06:08 GMT -8
Perhaps we need to consider the source a bit on this one . This Evergreen group likely knows less about operating ferry vessels than I do. From what I read, they tend to be a far right wing group that is often hostile to the needs of working people. They frequently oppose even modest tax increases or bond issues needed for improving public services. Yes, I had considered that myself when reading the article, but I just thought I'd put it up here for appraisal from those who are actually knowledgeable about the ferries.
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Post by guest on Oct 3, 2007 18:14:38 GMT -8
I believe they are using this issue as a wedge for some sort of privatization effort, probably Martinac's proposal to build and then charter ferries to WSF.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Oct 3, 2007 19:30:13 GMT -8
So I am not the only one smelling something fishy in the air when it comes to privatization? Cause with fare increases, I smell some very fishy things.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 3, 2007 20:11:31 GMT -8
Dan sure you aren't smelling your fav restaurant Ivars the night before garbage day
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Post by EGfleet on Oct 3, 2007 22:28:48 GMT -8
I believe they are using this issue as a wedge for some sort of privatization effort, probably Martinac's proposal to build and then charter ferries to WSF. I'm laughing...no private corporation in their right mind would touch a fleet as old as WSF's. Besides, if it were possible for this operation to be profitable private endeavour private would be endeavouring to do it! ;D
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Post by SS San Mateo on Oct 7, 2007 13:29:51 GMT -8
That seems like the only realistic option right now. Unless the "build in Washington" law either gets repealed or waived, federal funding isn't an option. According to other articles, additional funding for the replacements would take 12 - 18 months to acquire. Unless WSF decided to buy and rebuilt the 2 decomissioned Kennedy Class Staten Island ferries, acquiring used ferries isn't an option.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Oct 23, 2007 6:55:39 GMT -8
Then those wouldn't really work. We'd end up with a drop in capacity, even with two. Not only that, but the COI on the Steilacoom II says she can't go more than 1 mile from shore (I'm assuming the Christine Anderson has a similar/same restriction), so it sounds like those designs would need significant modifications.
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Post by BreannaF on Oct 23, 2007 11:27:16 GMT -8
Then those wouldn't really work. We'd end up with a drop in capacity, even with two. Not only that, but the COI on the Steilacoom II says she can't go more than 1 mile from shore (I'm assuming the Christine Anderson has a similar/same restriction), so it sounds like those designs would need significant modifications. Is the shallow draft of the ferry needed for Keystone Harbor a contributing factor in the famous "bumpy ride" that is frequently encountered on the PT-Keystone run? If so, it seems that we wouldn't want to recreate that effect in either a new or used replacement vessel. Or is the ride due to something else specific to the steel-electrics? Or, would the Issaquah bounce around out there like a buoy on some days, too, just like the s-e's? (I'm kinda doubting this one.)
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