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Post by SS San Mateo on Jul 4, 2007 11:01:26 GMT -8
Two of the steels will still be around after the new ones are built (assuming the USCG doesn't order all of the steels out of service). As for the 2 steels that will be retired, I'm guessing the Klickitat (not ADA compliant and seems to have the most problems with hull breaches/damage) and the Illahee (lowest overhead clearance of the 4).
As for the other non-steels that will be retired, the Rhody is a given (narrow lanes, age, and the recent restrictions that were added). I'm guessing the Hyak will be the other (never got a major mid-life upgrade and the proposed 5'th vessel would've replaced her).
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Post by Electric Thunderbird on Jul 4, 2007 13:44:51 GMT -8
Two of the steels will still be around after the new ones are built (assuming the USCG doesn't order all of the steels out of service). As for the 2 steels that will be retired, I'm guessing the Klickitat (not ADA compliant and seems to have the most problems with hull breaches/damage) and the Illahee (lowest overhead clearance of the 4). As for the other non-steels that will be retired, the Rhody is a given (narrow lanes, age, and the recent restrictions that were added). I'm guessing the Hyak will be the other (never got a major mid-life upgrade and the proposed 5'th vessel would've replaced her). I doubt it on the Hyak, due to her capacity
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Post by SS Shasta on Jul 4, 2007 16:34:33 GMT -8
At the risk of being outspoken, it would be stupid and foolish if WSF retired more than one or two vessels in the current fleet. The following should be carefully considered:
1. The continuing use of the steel electrics at Port Townsend/Keystone would require that 3 vessels at a minimum be retained. During the spring/summer/fall season two are in regular service on the run. A third vessel would be needed for back-up to cover maintenance periods and possible breakdowns. Also the riding public should pressure the Legislature/Governor for more hours of service for the second vessel assigned to the route during the busy summer season.
2. With the construction of the four new vessels, three vessel service is urgently needed during busy summer week ends on at least three cross sound routes: Edmonds/Kingston, Mukilteo/Clinton, and Seattle/Winslow. Problems with two and three hour backups need to be addressed now rather than later. Certainly a vessel the size of the MV Hyak can help address this problem.
3. Certainly all three Evergreen class vessels should be maintained to provide backup for maintenance and possible breakdowns. Perhaps an additional Evergreen sized vessel should be assigned to the San Juan Islands during the busy summer season.
This would leave one steel electric and possibly the Rhody on the list for possible retirement. I am assuming that MV Hiyu would be maintained for use on the new Vashon/Southworth route as listed in the current WSF Draft Plan.
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 4, 2007 17:39:00 GMT -8
I must say, while I find your devotation to the Steel Electrics admirable, you really are missing the point about their age. They're allowed to run only because of the fact that due to their age, they are grandfathered in on a lot of regulations. Boats designed like that today wouldn't even get off the drawing board. A third boat at Mukilteo-Clinton is NOT, repeat, NOT feasible until a second slip is at Mukilteo. The Mukilteo side would log-jam with boats waiting for a slip. Before anyone says "well, they USED to run three boats," bear in mind that they boats were both smaller and slower. The offload/load process took less time. It has been done, however, with three boats at Winslow (cheers for use of old name!). The service itself was successful, but only if the boats sailed promptly on time. Moreover, it made for a pretty much continuous stream of traffic on the island. People loved three boats when it came time for their sailing, but hated it everywhere else. I'm not sure how it would work at Kingston... unfortunately I suspect it would have much the same effect. A sixth vessel won't work in the San Juans until we have somewhere to park it at night. Both loading slips and both tie-up slips are full at Anacortes, and the tie-up slip in Friday Harbor is likewise in use. I still maintain that the Hiyu won't be adequate for a Vashon-Southworth shuttle, but I haven't worked there in years so I could be on the order of 'all wet,' too. I do believe all three Evergreens would in fact be in regular service even after the arrival of the new boats--one at South Vashon, one at North Vashon, and one in the Islands. At any rate I haven't heard any talk at all of dumping an Evergreen in a long time. We'll see in a couple of years... but meanwhile, I really think WSF has its current status optimised for the vessels and infrastructures.
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Post by hergfest on Jul 4, 2007 18:22:08 GMT -8
I do think that three boat service could work on Edmonds/Kingston as long as they use a smaller boat like the Evergreen so they can unload/load fast. But as with the Mukilteo run, they need to build the second slip at Edmonds.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 4, 2007 18:57:41 GMT -8
3rd vessel at Edmonds to Kingston makes alot of sense, I would say use the Sealth on Friday nights from Edmonds and Sunday nights from Kingston, I just wonder, is it cheaper to run the ferry empty back to Kingston or run it partially full to Kingston? or vise versa?
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Post by SS San Mateo on Jul 4, 2007 19:17:24 GMT -8
Another problem with using 3 vessels at Mukilteo-Clinton is that neither terminal has a tie-up slip (Clinton did have 2 at one time, but were removed when the dock was rebuilt earlier this decade).
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Post by SS Shasta on Jul 4, 2007 19:42:58 GMT -8
3rd vessel at Edmonds to Kingston makes alot of sense, I would say use the Sealth on Friday nights from Edmonds and Sunday nights from Kingston, I just wonder, is it cheaper to run the ferry empty back to Kingston or run it partially full to Kingston? or vise versa? Just wondering if any of you remember when WSF actually ran 4 vessels on busy summer week-ends on both the Edmonds/Kingston route and from Mukilteo to Clinton? This was quite a sight to see. Two and sometimes three vessels would unload-load at both terminals; the fourth vessel was unscheduled and only loaded in the direction of the main traffic flow (except for walk-ons). By having the additional vessel running empty on the car deck one way and not listed on the schedule, much of the pressure at the east side with only one loading ramp was decreased. Actually the main loading problems did not come from having the extra vessel, but from trains that would block access to the dock at the wrong times! My idea for retaining a minimum of 3 steel electrics is based on not having one in the Islands, after the new vessels come on line, that can be replaced and move to Port Townsend when emergencies occur. Oh yes! I plead guilty of having a special fondness for these nostalgic vessels .
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 4, 2007 20:01:01 GMT -8
I do think that three boat service could work on Edmonds/Kingston as long as they use a smaller boat like the Evergreen so they can unload/load fast. But as with the Mukilteo run, they need to build the second slip at Edmonds. Oh! Another caveat is that the three boats should ideally be about the same service speed, or the third (slower) boat will get underfoot very quickly. And the Clinton tie-up slips fell into disuse in the early 1980s and were not only inaccessible but falling down by the late 90s when I first went to work for WSF.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 5, 2007 11:15:57 GMT -8
Sounds like WSF just needs an entire replacement program going to get vessels. Now a bit of a side question but it does have to do with the Steel Electrics. Why do the citizens of Port Townsend and Keystone not want a new terminal yet Bremerton has to get a tunnel that citizens don't want? What was the reasoning behind them not wanting new terminals? If the Steel Electrics are pulled from service if the USCG pulls the plug, are they going to react in complaint when they told WSF they did not want the larger vessels to keep service operational?
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 6, 2007 11:02:05 GMT -8
What was the reasoning behind [Port Townsend and Keystone] not wanting new terminals? If the Steel Electrics are pulled from service if the USCG pulls the plug, are they going to react in complaint when they told WSF they did not want the larger vessels to keep service operational? Of course they are. People are still complaining about the fare increases that they were told would happen if I-695 passed, too, but they still voted for it. Are you old enough to remember the Great Cake Fiasco? The Bremerton riders were complaining that Bainbridge got carrot cake on their run, but Bremerton didn't. (Bremerton got chocolate that Bainbridge didn't.) It was quite childish. Also, Bremertonians were complaining that they didn't get any of the 'new' boats (Jumbo Mk IIs). They really didn't like being reminded that from 1984 to 1997, they had the newest auto ferry in the fleet (Sealth) and look what they did to it... ;D Anyway, up in the San Juans, our reaction to the Great Cake Fiasco was, "wait a minute... YOU guys get CAKE?"
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 6, 2007 16:14:13 GMT -8
I don't even have a clue of the Great Cake Fiasco or is that satire?
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Post by EGfleet on Jul 6, 2007 20:25:32 GMT -8
I don't even have a clue of the Great Cake Fiasco or is that satire? No...this really happened...
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 6, 2007 21:14:16 GMT -8
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFL! That is completely hilarious. We will be getting one of the next new boats but it seems there is always a battle between Bremerton and Bainbridge commuters. Who cares about cake? At least it's free. (at least I hope)
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Post by Barnacle on Jul 7, 2007 16:23:12 GMT -8
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! ROFL! That is completely hilarious. We will be getting one of the next new boats but it seems there is always a battle between Bremerton and Bainbridge commuters. Who cares about cake? At least it's free. (at least I hope) Free food on board the ferry? Man you are new here, aren't you? Anyway, I kid you not. The Great Cake Fiasco was a real thing. I have a copy of the newspaper article around here somewhere. The Bremertonians complained about the new boats "always" going to Bainbridge-- like the Evergreen State, Tillikum, Kaleetan, Elwha, Spokane, Walla Walla (which actually started in the San Juan Islands), Tacoma, Wenatchee... Mind you, the Bremertonians got the Hyak, Yakima, Kitsap, Sealth, Tyee, Chinook, Snohomish... it all averages out.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Jul 7, 2007 16:58:08 GMT -8
Well in 1997 I was not 6 foot tall nor was I in junior high so how am I supposed to remember that?
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Post by SS San Mateo on Nov 2, 2007 18:07:27 GMT -8
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,150
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Post by Neil on Nov 2, 2007 18:41:40 GMT -8
What an awful thing for the workers and their families. Does anyone know what kind of severance pay, if any, is involved? Did people see this coming?
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Post by Emory Lindgard on Nov 2, 2007 19:05:40 GMT -8
Yes, What a shock. I saw KING TV Truck at Freeland Park this Evening, and was wondering what was newsworthy.
They have three project in their shipyard. A Tugboat was suppose to be launch in two weeks.
Being I live here at Freeland it was a Bombshell.
Emory
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Post by guest1 on Nov 2, 2007 20:08:43 GMT -8
Big News, didn't see it coming, no one predicted.
What about the 3-way ferry new-builds?
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Post by Scott on Nov 2, 2007 20:58:59 GMT -8
Wow, that's a hard blow to Whitbey Island. I think there are some shipbuilding companies up here in Canada that are on the edge of folding too. There seems to be a pretty thin profit margin in this industry.
Pardon my ignorance, but what impact will this have on Washington State Ferries?
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Post by SS San Mateo on Nov 2, 2007 21:33:14 GMT -8
Pardon my ignorance, but what impact will this have on Washington State Ferries? Under the current plan for the new builds, Nichols Bros. were going to be a subcontractor (Martinac being the other) for Todd Shipyards. I don't know if this means that Martinac will be the only subcontractor or if the whole process has to be restarted yet again.
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Post by hergfest on Nov 2, 2007 22:55:36 GMT -8
Does anything move slower than the State of Washington? They say they have been "fast tracking" the new boats, yet we haven't heard anything since July (the last post in this thread). I know they want to pull this contract for the four bigger boats to build some Keystone capable boats, but the bottom line is the propulsion contract has already been signed. Unless they want to throw all that money away, they have to build these new 144 car boats.
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Nick
Voyager
Chief Engineer - Queen of Richmond
Posts: 2,078
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Post by Nick on Nov 2, 2007 22:58:18 GMT -8
They could build some really fast smaller boats ;D ;D
Kidding, I know the engineering aspect probably wouldn't work out.
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 3, 2007 6:51:53 GMT -8
It will be interesting to see... I can't imagine what effect this will happen on the newbuilds, so I'm as "ignorant" as you are, John. ;D
Though in some ways it might actually simplify the process. Certainly it will make the construction process simpler (unless another yard other than Todd or Martinac takes over NBBBI's portion) by making one less "interface" where different yards' work has to be stitched together.
We shall see.
And, Hergfest, I don't know who the "they" are that want to pull the contract for building the 144's, but as far as I know, "they" isn't WSF. Last I heard WSF wants to build two boats for Keystone in addition to the 144's. We're already... let's see... two full boat-building cycles behind (SE/Rhody, Evergreens); unless we want the problem to get worse, all four 144's need to be built.
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