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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 17, 2010 6:58:30 GMT -8
Noted and appreciated! However, you aren't the one making up a list of suggestions for politicos... at least, not that we know of.  ...and you're replying to: - Whidbey Island Guy - LIFC or both? or are you talkin' to me? ;D |
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Post by Barnacle on Oct 17, 2010 7:11:54 GMT -8
I am specifically referring to the list that Lifc has provided. I had no idea that Whidbey Island Guy had been active in the Merchant Marine, but that answers some unasked questions too.
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Post by rusty on Oct 17, 2010 7:36:34 GMT -8
At the moment, it sure would be nice if the CHETZEMOKA could be used on the Mukilteo/Clinton route.
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Post by lmtengs on Oct 17, 2010 10:23:16 GMT -8
At the moment, it sure would be nice if the CHETZEMOKA could be used on the Mukilteo/Clinton route. Are they still down a ship, or has Kitittas been brought back in? |
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moonman
Oiler (New Member)
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Post by moonman on Oct 17, 2010 10:25:01 GMT -8
At more than $1.2 million a car space for the Chetzemoka and something less, maybe for the other two lets get them built and in service before more money is wasted. We need to get on with the 144's. If the Chetzemoka survives until the Salish is on the route then the ferry system can refit it to the CP propellers, if they work.
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Post by lmtengs on Oct 17, 2010 10:26:26 GMT -8
Noted and appreciated! However, you aren't the one making up a list of suggestions for politicos... at least, not that we know of. ...and you're replying to: - Whidbey Island Guy - LIFC or both? or are you talkin' to me? ;D See, people? This is why we have an option to 'quote' the post that we're responding to. It makes it easier for everyone when that's done.  I've been confused by a few posts recently too. It would be nice if we could bring up the posting standard just a tad. Quoting a post doesn't take too much more time than normal replying (at most, 10 seconds more), and it makes the forum more organized looking. Just a suggestion...  |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Oct 17, 2010 11:39:08 GMT -8
Noted and appreciated! However, you aren't the one making up a list of suggestions for politicos... at least, not that we know of. I know I just wanted to say anyways.. And the Chezy just pulled into keystone. ;D |
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Post by rusty on Oct 17, 2010 17:29:47 GMT -8
Think I found what the problem is with the ramp fit on the CHETZEMOKA.
I rode the WENATCHEE today. The space between the bulwarks is wider, but not by all that much.
The difference is that the apron lands on the car deck in front of the bulwarks, whereas on the CHETZEMOKA the apron lands between the bulwarks.
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Post by chokai on Oct 17, 2010 17:36:23 GMT -8
The difference is that the apron lands on the car deck in front of the bulwarks, whereas on the CHETZEMOKA the apron lands between the bulwarks. I had thought that might have been the issue but having not seen her up close and not having ridden a ferry in a few months (!) I wasn't sure, but it makes sense. Obviously someone didn't do their homework what with this and the rubrail..... :-) |
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Post by Kahloke on Oct 17, 2010 19:03:27 GMT -8
Kirsten and I made a little trip up to Marrowstone Island this afternoon to explore Fort Flagler, largely because it was a beautiful day, and neither of us had been there before. Anyway, while we were down by the Marrrowstone Lighthouse, we saw Chetzemoka heading back down sound from her sea trials today. Here's she is off Whidbey Island.  |
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Post by EGfleet on Oct 18, 2010 7:00:43 GMT -8
Port Townsend's 2010 Family Portrait to feature new ferry
By Charlie Bermant
Peninsula Daily News
PORT TOWNSEND -- This year's Port Townsend Family Portrait will have some extra color, as many of the participants will be in costume, and the new ferry will fill the background.
The portrait will be taken on Oct. 31, Halloween, and is timed to take place immediately prior to the Main Street Downtown Trick or Treat and Costume Parade.
"This is going to be exciting, and very Port Townsend," Main Street Director Mari Mullen said.
It will take place on the Washington State Ferries holding area on Water Street, with the new M/V Chetzemoka docked in the background.
The ferry is not scheduled to go into service on the route between Port Townsend and Coupeville on Whidbey Island until Nov. 14, but the city and the state ferry system have coincided sea trials to allow the boat to be in the community photograph.
Port Townsend photographer David Conklin will snap the photo at about 4 p.m., between sailings of the Steilacoom II, which leaves at 3:45 p.m.
Mullen said that participants should arrive at about 3:50 p.m. They will stand on the empty holding area.
"We can do this pretty quickly and expect that it will be finished a little after 4," she said.
Immediately after the photograph, the parade will move from the ferry dock down Water Street.
Public safety officials will be involved. The Port Townsend Police Department officers will manage traffic while East Jefferson Fire-Rescue fire fighters will loan a ladder truck, allowing Conklin to shoot down onto the crowd.
While the portrait is intended to reflect the population of Port Townsend, anyone who is in town is invited to participate, Mullen.
"This is a community event and anyone who wants to come is welcome," she said.
She estimated that about 500 people would attend.
The family portraits have been taken about every three years since 1985, and are often planned in conjunction with a civic improvement or event.
The last portrait, in 2007, coincided with the opening of the new City Hall.
The picture will be turned into a poster that will be available the next day for $10 at the Printery/Star Copy 631 Tyler St.
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lifc
Voyager 
Posts: 471
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Post by lifc on Oct 18, 2010 13:18:33 GMT -8
I decided I'd better do some responding her, spent the weekend in Port Townsend without a computer, nice to be disconnected sometimes.
My credentials; Lived on the water next to one of the most vibrant commercial fishing areas in the State, started as a deckhand in Commercial Fishing when I was eleven. Worked as a Fish buyer as a teenager, off and on into my forties. Skippered Gill-netters, Cannery Tenders, worked on Purse Seiners, from Washington State to above the Alaska Peninsula. Operated log donkeys, work on log rafts, boat salvage, wooden boat repair, marine engine installation and repair.
Rode the Lummi Island and State Ferries all my life, observed operations, know people in shipyards, marine designers, ferry operators, etc. Oh, I forgot, not stupid, have commoin sense, and a good listener.
The engine issue- the EMD's will burn about 500 more gallons of fuel, a day, each and every day, in these vessels. At current rate, that would pay-out a set of four cycle's in around +- three years. I think these boats ought to last longer than that. As a taxpayer I feel betrayed by this decision.
Closing in the rudder ends, perhaps a miss-nomer, enclosing the prop shafts within the hull, similar to the STII, the Steel Electrics, Olympic, etal. Supporting the rudders from below with a shoe that will protect both the Props and rudders in case of contact with the bottom. This is a really bad "oversight", considering the use, the first incident of this kind will cost much more than the "savings "made by not doing this. I have personally seen many incidents of this kind of damage over the years.
I wish I could say the design was proper for the use, I only put these suggestions to try to make the design work better.
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Post by Barnacle on Oct 18, 2010 21:19:10 GMT -8
Unfortunately, we're stuck with the design we have on this. The only thing we can try to do with it at this point is make the next one better.
You identify some shortcomings in the hull design, ones that I happen to agree with. Even the engine situation. Purchasing the engines for the 144's was, at best, premature. But the decision to purchase them was political, not necessarily rational.
To radically modify the hull at this point--when the steel has been cut and assembly has commenced--would be expensive beyond belief. And I'm sure some politicians would have a field day with the 'waste of money' on the re-design of the boats, conveniently forgetting that THEY are the ones who forced these boats upon WSF in the first place. Yet another political decision.
I think my primary objections to your providing a list to yet another politician is that it encourages another potential voice to the battle who may or may not know what they are talking about (I reiterate, that is how we got stuck with these in the first place); moreover, I don't agree that sponsoning out the boat is a solution to the problem of the San Juan interisland spin. Those boats weren't intended for the SJI run; there was a threat of putting a fourth one up there as an excuse to build a fourth boat and add to the glory of Mary Margaraet Haugen's legacy. I just feel that if any lists on how to improve vessel design are forthcoming, they should be coming from those within WSF who operate them on a daily basis, not politicians who are shilling for the shipyard in their district.
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Post by lmtengs on Oct 18, 2010 22:15:11 GMT -8
Is there any potentiality that the Kwa-di Tabil Class ferries may turn into a fiasco almost as big as the fast-ferries fiasco up in BC, if the ships don't perform well?
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on Oct 18, 2010 22:17:17 GMT -8
Is there any potentiality that the Kwa-di Tabil Class ferries may turn into a fiasco almost as big as the fast-ferries fiasco up in BC, if the ships don't perform well? Not really, nothing here is really that experimental as they were.. |
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Post by rusty on Oct 19, 2010 7:46:15 GMT -8
The problem is the KdT's are draining all the money for new construction, at a time where money is going to get tight(er).
I think the fun will start after the CHETZEMOKA goes on the run at PT/Key, if it does at all.
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Post by BreannaF on Oct 20, 2010 23:53:26 GMT -8
Is there any potentiality that the Kwa-di Tabil Class ferries may turn into a fiasco almost as big as the fast-ferries fiasco up in BC, if the ships don't perform well? Actually, that is a pretty good question. The reality of the situation is that we are going into this knowing that these boats are not the optimum situation for this run or for anything else. They were built because the state backed itself into the corner, making the building of them the best of a handful of particularly unsavoury choices. There will be some fireworks when the politicians and the media start running stories about the "unexpected" costs of keeping the new fleet running, and the "unexpected" costs of a refit for them after a relatively small number of years. To those who have been watching the situation develop from the beginning, there will be no surprises that there will be some costs involved and that these boats will be less than optimum for the job they are supposed to do. To the casual observer, the boats will be a debacle of major proportions, with the uninformed general public aghast at what has happened. There will be the calling for people to lose their jobs. The uninformed will not understand that the moves have already been made. Alas. Eventually, and by that I mean in the next 10 or 20 years, WSF will finally get the proper fleet that it needs. By that time, the Kwa-di Tabil boats will be the "Hiyu's" of the fleet -- nice to have around in case of emergency, but not very useful for getting a lot of people and cars from Point A to Point B at one time. Unlike the Pacificats, the Kwa-di Tabils will not just sit around after a short period of service. Like Whidbey Guy said, they're just not too exciting. When the kinks are worked out, they will actually be useful as ferries. To someone. Also, unlike the Pacificats, they will not be suitable for turning into huge yachts for oil barons in the Middle East. Fiasco? Yes. As bad at the Pacificats? No. |
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lifc
Voyager
Posts: 471
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Post by lifc on Oct 21, 2010 10:00:56 GMT -8
The Pacificats were something that no one had ever done before, so to me, their failure is more excusable than the KdT venture. There is nothing in the KdT design criteria that was new or experimental. While to KdT's will likely be used more, the State has no choice, but their existence will be very costly to the public, in operating costs, capacity, and repairs. All these criteria were well known and seemingly not taken to heart when designed.
Person's, who remain nameless of the operating staff, tell me the Chetzemoka has an oversensitive rudder, has to closely ridden or it will go somewhere not intended, burns a lot of fuel, lists, takes too long to stop, and is having a wider set of rub-rails installed at State expense. One thought the Passenger cabin was enormous, much larger than ever needed for Keystone, expressed dismay that the State excepted the boat, and that the STII ought to be bought and kept on the run until something that actually worked there was obtained. Another said it would not be long before prop contact with the bottom was made and figured that they had better get the second done darn soon to keep service to Port Townsend as it's likely one or the other will be off line and out for repair.
I remember when I was excited about the new boats, and I do hope that for some hopeful reason they do work, to at least a minimal standard.
If we cannot change the overall design, let's at least try to get an engine substitution for boat three, which will keep a set of EMD's for the 144s, lower the costs of operation for that Vessel and give us an operational comparison to the other two.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,957
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Post by FNS on Oct 21, 2010 16:06:52 GMT -8
The Pacificats were something that no one had ever done before, so to me, their failure is more excusable than the KdT venture. There is nothing in the KdT design criteria that was new or experimental. While to KdT's will likely be used more, the State has no choice, but their existence will be very costly to the public, in operating costs, capacity, and repairs. All these criteria were well known and seemingly not taken to heart when designed. Person's, who remain nameless of the operating staff, tell me the Chetzemoka has an oversensitive rudder, has to closely ridden or it will go somewhere not intended, burns a lot of fuel, lists, takes too long to stop, and is having a wider set of rub-rails installed at State expense. One thought the Passenger cabin was enormous, much larger than ever needed for Keystone, expressed dismay that the State excepted the boat, and that the STII ought to be bought and kept on the run until something that actually worked there was obtained. Another said it would not be long before prop contact with the bottom was made and figured that they had better get the second done darn soon to keep service to Port Townsend as it's likely one or the other will be off line and out for repair. I remember when I was excited about the new boats, and I do hope that for some hopeful reason they do work, to at least a minimal standard. If we cannot change the overall design, let's at least try to get an engine substitution for boat three, which will keep a set of EMD's for the 144s, lower the costs of operation for that Vessel and give us an operational comparison to the other two. Interesting points, but a bit premature, since the KdT ferries have not entered into active service. There are always going to be problems at the outset, but from what I have been able to read, the problems have been largely fixed. The Pacifcats were in fact based on an existing Incat design base, revised bow and stern for the fit of BCF dockage. There were numerous problems with them, dynamics with the wash, and the fact they could not carry heavy trucks and buses. The engines ran at 95% of rated capacity which resulted in more problems. In addition the geography proved problematic and wasn't really taken into consideration. There is only about 15 miles of open water, the balance of the route through channels on either side. The KdT vessels hopefully will prove themselves. There's going to be critics. The size of the passenger area is a bit moot as I've noticed when I was aboard the Klickitat, the passenger area was packed, but this was in the middle of summer on the two sails aboard I took. No sense in being sour totally, take the critical comment as an aid of assessement, but not the outcome. Washington State in my mind did what many governments do, they simply took too long to think of replacements. It is a perpetual problem up here in B.C., governments wait too long for revsions to infrastructure. Transportation infrastructre has to be continually taken care of in order to meet demands of replacing aspects and equipment, something that few governments have ever done. Our major Highway 1 upgrade and new Port Mann Bridge for example is not "new", it is something that should have been finished about 15 years ago. Skytrain's extension to YVR ("The Airport") isn't really new either, it should have been done and finished in the late 1980's, with current projects extending to other suburban areas. Won;t even get into what should have been done starting 16 years ago with BC Ferries after the Spirits were in the water.. Good points, PK!  I agree on your view of Canada Line. This should have been completed in the 1980s. It's a great line to ride as well. It would have been easier to ride this to CYVR to get to my flights up to Vancouver Island and see and ride aboard the NORTHERN EXPEDITION. That was 2009. This is now 2010 and the Line is open. Good points on the PacifiCats as well. Besides the slowdown areas the captains had to contend with on these ferries and their wakes, LOGS!Getting back to the construction scene of our new ferries here, Todd Shipyards has updated its web site with new photos of the setting of the three cabin cores from Nichols Brothers. The site is: www.toddpacific.com/index.php/gallery/project_detail/Salish Back in Seattle, we see the SALISH with her cabin cores installed as well as the rest of our waterfront's activity. I have more photos of the SALISH on her thread on this forum. |
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Post by chokai on Oct 21, 2010 23:29:18 GMT -8
I guess i need to get down there this weekend and have a look see. Todd's redone their website design too. When did that happen? Hidden in the dyanmic rotator at the top are a few great ferry pictures. Including this one with no less than 5 ferries in it. www.toddpacific.com/images/uploads/banner_images/banner4.jpgWill also be curious if WSF is comfortable enough yet to take Chetzy out this weekend with the poor weather headed in. |
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
Posts: 4,957
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Post by FNS on Oct 21, 2010 23:49:22 GMT -8
I guess i need to get down there this weekend and have a look see. Todd's redone their website design too. When did that happen? Hidden in the dyanmic rotator at the top are a few great ferry pictures. Including this one with no less than 5 ferries in it. www.toddpacific.com/images/uploads/banner_images/banner4.jpgWill also be curious if WSF is comfortable enough yet to take Chetzy out this weekend with the poor weather headed in. Would be interesting to see if they do that this weekend. Watch the WSF radar screen to see where the CHETZY's blip is. The banner features these vessels (from east to west): the ELWHA, an I-130, a US Coast Guard icebreaker (most likely the HEALY), the COHO, the MALASPINA, and the TAKU. |
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Post by chokai on Oct 22, 2010 9:26:02 GMT -8
The icebreaker in that picture is indeed the Healy. Healy has a single large square funnel as opposed to two and a much larger super structure than either Polar Star or Polar Sea that provides far more space befitting her role as a more of a heavy ice capable research vessel than a traditional breaker.
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Post by Northern Exploration on Oct 23, 2010 8:45:06 GMT -8
The icebreaker in that picture is indeed the Healy. Healy has a single large square funnel as opposed to two and a much larger super structure than either Polar Star or Polar Sea that provides far more space befitting her role as a more of a heavy ice capable research vessel than a traditional breaker. Thanks guys. I have always wanted to sail on an Ice Breaker. My dad when he was auditing TC flew out to the Wilfred Laurier on the west coast and before that the Louis St. Laurent on the east coast. I was so green with envy. The closest I have gotten is the Quebec City ferries breaking ice in winter . |
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Post by old_wsf_fan on Oct 23, 2010 17:52:05 GMT -8
One thing that I have noticed about this new class of vessel is the same kind of flat sides and lack of a thick rub rail, ala the Kalakala. If you look at the sides of the Kalakala, she has the same flat sides and very little rub-rail, mainly on her sides. The new Chetzy seems to carry this rub-rail theme all the way along.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Oct 24, 2010 13:14:17 GMT -8
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