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Post by lmtengs on Sept 30, 2011 22:17:48 GMT -8
When the cable ferry is being refitted or taken out of service for any reasons, I take it the berths would be accessible by a normal ferry? Or would they have to run the Scholarship to and from Denman?
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Sept 30, 2011 22:46:46 GMT -8
When the cable ferry is being refitted or taken out of service for any reasons, I take it the berths would be accessible by a normal ferry? Or would they have to run the Scholarship to and from Denman? The latter, as I mentioned in the above post. This is to be a cable only operation, although the original proposal called for an initial one year period when both would be operable.
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Post by kevins on Oct 1, 2011 10:52:28 GMT -8
The cable ferry will have three cables, one in the centre for the "pull" and one on each outboard side for directional stability and safety. All three cables would need to break before the vessel would be in any danger of drifting off course. It will also be fitted with an anchor, just like a conventional ferry. From what I am told, to replace the cable does not take a lot of time or involve a lot of difficulty. see the photo, www.flickr.com/photos/roewan/5035207288/
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2011 7:45:52 GMT -8
I am searching for information about some of the inland cable ferry routes. I wanted to know if anyone can tell me about the Osprey 2000 - who built her, when and where and any details on the contract holder, Western Pacific Marine.
She isn't a cable ferry - runs on Kootenay Lake and is an 80 car ferry.
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Post by Scott on Oct 29, 2011 8:05:41 GMT -8
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 2, 2011 14:44:10 GMT -8
A line near the end of this story points out how serious the consequences could be for Denman Island if this plan goes ahead with a private operator. Denman would most likely lose all of the jobs currently provided by the BC Ferries operation, with all the support for island families and businesses that go along with it. Currently, most of the ferry crew live on the island. Under the new plan, the private operator would provide the crew, and chances are that the boat would be based at Buckley Bay. No wonder there has been such a storm of disapproval from Denman residents. If the government is planning to review the current BC Ferries structure to gauge its possible negative impact on coastal communities, they cannot in all conscience let this proposal go ahead without giving it the same scrutiny. www.timescolonist.com/Cable+ferry+operator+sought+Denman/5644021/story.html---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cable ferry operator sought for Denman By Sandra McCulloch, Times Colonist November 2, 2011 B.C. Ferries may add a cable ferry to its fleet to service the 1.9-km route between Buckley Bay, south of Courtenay, and Denman Island. The ferry corporation said Tuesday it is seeking expressions of interest from experienced operators with a closing date of Nov. 22. If qualified operators come forward, a request for proposals will be issued, B.C. Ferries spokeswoman Deborah Marshall said. If a suitable operator is found, the cable-ferry service would begin no later than April 2014. A Vancouver naval engineer said such a project "is an exceptionally unusual and very long distance on which to use a cable ferry. "We have designed dozens of these and most of them are making short lake or river crossings, 100-to 200-metre distances typically," said Robert Allan, chairman of Robert Allan Ltd. Naval Architects and Marine Engineers. "When you're mid-span you're subject to all the forces of wind and waves that would be exerting a sideways force on the vessel as it makes the transit." "I know that crossing is relatively shallow so you'll get short, steep waves. There's no fundamental reason why it could not work if it's properly engineered." A cable ferry would be a similar size to the current conventional ferry, carrying 50 vehicles and 150 passengers. It would be cheaper to buy and operate, Marshall said. The current conventional ferry has a crew of six. A cable ferry would require only three. There are a number of smaller ferries in operation on B.C. lakes and rivers that are pulled by cables, instead of having their own engines and steering. B.C. Ferries has obtained regulatory approval for a cable ferry, including terminal modifications and an undersea cable, under the Canadian Environmental Assessment Act. It has yet to obtain approval under the Navigable Waters Protection Act and the Crown Land Act. There are cable ferries of a similar size operating in Europe, Marshall said. "There are lots of other cable ferries around the world," she said. "We're basically testing the waters to see if there is an experienced cable ferry operator interested in the service." Buckley Bay to Denman is the only route in the B.C. Ferries system on which a cable ferry could operate, Marshall said. The operator would be responsible for all aspects of the management, operations and maintenance of the vessel and cable system. The operator would also provide the crew. smcculloch@timescolonist.com © Copyright (c) The Victoria Times Colonist
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 3, 2011 12:38:38 GMT -8
There isn';t any specifics as to the crew being based at Buckley Bay rather than Denman Island, Niel. For safety sake, and for simplicity, it would be better for the private operator to simply take on the transfer of all crews to the new vessel, inclusive of BCFMWU representation, and have the vessel based at the dock on Denman Island. This is just a call for bids for vessel and service. It has not been finalised and set, and has to go through review processes before anything is decided upon. The final decision is with BC Ferries, but the government has some input. If there are that many concerns, my suggestion is simply now is the time to write a well written concise, professionally polite yet firm letter to the Minister Responsible. A letter to NDP MLA Coons isn't going to go anywhere, as all he can do is talk. A word to those who do write any letter to an MLA. Do not sound off or write four letter words representing biological functions that the MLA could under take. All that will do is speed up the trip of your letter to the round file. Be respectful. Sounding off as if you're in a locker room or a pub powered by one too many Blues or Canadians isn't going to get anywhere. I wrote quite a few letters when the NDP was in power, but they were written in a polite and professional tone, even to my old high school friend who is a sitting NDP MLA. If anyone is that concerned about migation of ferry services to and from Denman Island, now is the time to put your own MLA to work on the issue. I doubt that Denman Islanders need any advice on how to respond to this issue, or on how to write polite, effective letters. They have been responding in large numbers at public meetings, and through their FAC, as well as making representations to MLAs and the province, for well over a year now. How many of their concerns will be met- if any- is largely up to the province. BC Ferries' concern is for their own bottom line.
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 4, 2011 20:39:16 GMT -8
For operating a cable ferry, one doesn't need a Captains ticket, or a Mate's ticket, or a Bridge Watch Rating, or a Chief Engineer ticket. All you need is someone to make the vessel run back and forth along the cable, someone to direct the vehicles, and someone to make sure the engine doesn't break down. Cable Ferry crews on other Canadian Cable ferries don't hold any sort of Marine Certification that self propelled, mobile vessel crews would need. Point being, there are huge labour cost savings which is also driving this idea ahead.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Nov 4, 2011 21:21:57 GMT -8
For operating a cable ferry, one doesn't need a Captains ticket, or a Mate's ticket, or a Bridge Watch Rating, or a Chief Engineer ticket. All you need is someone to make the vessel run back and forth along the cable, someone to direct the vehicles, and someone to make sure the engine doesn't break down. Cable Ferry crews on other Canadian Cable ferries don't hold any sort of Marine Certification that self propelled, mobile vessel crews would need. Point being, there are huge labour cost savings which is also driving this idea ahead. Definitely, as well as considerable fuel savings. On the other hand, BC Ferries just rebuilt the Buckley Bay dock a couple of years ago, and this would involve another rebuilding and complete re-alignment, as well as on the Denman side. There is also the cost of a new vessel, as I doubt there are any used 50 car cable ferries on the market. So, how many years would it take to recoup the investment from the cable operation savings? This idea was floated by former ferry commissioner Martin Crilly, under a somewhat different mindset as to what the ferry commission is supposed to be working toward. It's next to impossible to see the cable option as positive for Denman's future, while it will likely help BC Ferries' bottom line if they get considerable help with initial capital costs. We'll see where the province stands on this before long, if BC Ferries makes the final decision to go ahead. With regard to the call for tenders, it's hard to imagine anyone other than Western Pacific Marine responding, if BC Ferries is indeed serious about the criteria for applicants having experience in cable ferry operation..
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Post by Ferryman on Nov 16, 2011 18:07:17 GMT -8
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piglet
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Post by piglet on Nov 16, 2011 18:45:05 GMT -8
Now where did I put my old Frank Ney inspired outfit. (shows my age doesn't it?)
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Post by Mike on Nov 16, 2011 20:07:01 GMT -8
Occupy Quinitsa?
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 18, 2011 13:06:44 GMT -8
From the quarterly reporting thread: BCFS has released their 2011/12 2nd-Quarter reports. - this covers April-September 2011, and in particular the events in July-September 2011. Here are my highlights from this. ------------- Cable ferry recap
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jan 13, 2012 18:41:19 GMT -8
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2012 6:09:29 GMT -8
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 25, 2012 7:26:06 GMT -8
Cable Ferry Project - Community Information BCFerries also had a rebuttal letter in the latest Island Tides newspaper, trying to debunk what they think are mistruths circulating about the project.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 25, 2012 12:09:24 GMT -8
Cable Ferry Project - Community Information BCFerries also had a rebuttal letter in the latest Island Tides newspaper, trying to debunk what they think are mistruths circulating about the project. That reply makes it pretty clear that BC Ferries does not put any stock in any of the islanders' objections. Job losses on Denman, and their effect on the island economy, are not BC Ferries' concerns, as they state. The 'consultation' process has been a series of opportunities for islanders to vent, and to hear BC Ferries tell them How It Will Be. The weakest part of the islanders' argument is probably safety. There has most likely never been an incident on the Denman run where six crewmen were required to deal with it, and it would probably be hard to find any significant cable ferry accidents anywhere in the industrialized world where lack of crew played a part. Only the province could veto this project, and I very much doubt that will happen, if BC Ferries can show a net savings.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 28, 2012 9:06:54 GMT -8
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 28, 2012 16:46:33 GMT -8
Apparently the authors of this study have looked in on this forum; the picture they've used of the Tenaka is the one I recently ran as my signature photo. I'm happy that my very modest photographic efforts were of use to someone.
They've done a pretty thorough job, and I would like to see BC Ferries' response to their specific points about cable thickness and the effect of cable drag in the deeper areas of Baynes Sound and possible docking issues from that. There also seems to be considerable disagreement about the worst weather expectations and how the cable ferry might perform. I have more doubts about their projected costs for dock and vessel construction- I suspect BC Ferries has done their due diligence in that area and has a better handle on the reality of the situation.
The Glosten Associates report of February 12th states, "BC Ferries is advancing the current state of the art in cable ferry operations". If that doesn't set off alarm bells about the likelihood of vast cost overruns or teething pains I don't know what would. In order to save BC Ferries a few million dollars over the years, Denman and Hornby Islanders are being volunteered as guinea pigs for the cause of modern marine engineering. I can understand why people who want reliable transportation to Vancouver Island, and the retention of existing jobs, have cast a very jaundiced eye on BC Ferries' experiment... or, as it might come to be known, 'Crilly's Folly'. Let's hope not.
I'm also mystified as to what BC Ferries plans to do if this goes through and the 'Cable Queen' is viewed as the fleet roster replacement for the retiring Tenaka, with Tachek moving permanently to Cortes. They will have no vessel to fill in at Texada, Port MacNeill or Cortes when necessary- open water runs that the Kahloke surely would not be suitable for, and which are now served by the Tachek temporarily. The Bowen Queen has a fairly full schedule in the southern strait, and I can't see them ever using her on smaller runs.
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Post by Mike C on Feb 28, 2012 17:06:42 GMT -8
I'm also mystified as to what BC Ferries plans to do if this goes through and the 'Cable Queen' is viewed as the fleet roster replacement for the retiring Tenaka, with Tachek moving permanently to Cortes. They will have no vessel to fill in at Texada, Port MacNeill or Cortes when necessary- open water runs that the Kahloke surely would not be suitable for, and which are now served by the Tachek temporarily. The Bowen Queen has a fairly full schedule in the southern strait, and I can't see them ever using her on smaller runs. This is something that BC Ferries has considerably lacked insight on during recent vessel replacements, notably the retirement of the Queen of Tsawwassen and her predecessor, Island Sky. We all know that story. This is definitely concerning. Although it does make me wonder if the Nimpkish will see some South Coast action if this goes through? She is quite busy up North in the off-season as it is...
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Post by lmtengs on Feb 28, 2012 21:04:50 GMT -8
This is something that BC Ferries has considerably lacked insight on during recent vessel replacements, notably the retirement of the Queen of Tsawwassen and her predecessor, Island Sky. We all know that story. A predecessor actually comes before, so the Queen of Tsawwassen would have been the predecessor of the Island Sky.
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Post by Name Omitted on Feb 28, 2012 22:14:10 GMT -8
Does anyone know the reasoning around why a cable ferry needs fewer crew than a conventional vessel? I thought the biggest reason for crew was to be there in case of emergency. I suppose you might be able to lose one person from the engine room? It was mentioned earlier in the thread that a cable ferry is a “gondola,” not a “ferry.” Therefore it falls under different safety regulations.
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Feb 28, 2012 22:56:04 GMT -8
Does anyone know the reasoning around why a cable ferry needs fewer crew than a conventional vessel? I thought the biggest reason for crew was to be there in case of emergency. I suppose you might be able to lose one person from the engine room? It was mentioned earlier in the thread that a cable ferry is a “gondola,” not a “ferry.” Therefore it falls under different safety regulations. I've never seen the word 'gondola' associated with cable ferries. Transport Canada certainly does refer to cable ferries as ferries, but as the website Mr Horn posted for us points out, the distinction between cable ferries and 'ships' is that cable ferries are attached to the land, and therefore can carry fewer crew.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jun 16, 2012 9:08:35 GMT -8
The latest summary on the Cable Ferry idea, from the BCFerries MD&A report, released yesterday:
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Neil
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Post by Neil on Jul 14, 2012 9:31:25 GMT -8
Not only are they proposing to build a new ferry, two new dock facilities and associated cable system, but they are apparently planning a major exansion, with infill, to the Denman terminal. I can't imagine how long it would take BC Ferries to recoup the costs of this project from their projected savings from operation costs. Meanwhile, Denman and Hornby are stuck with a fifty car ferry, no matter what growth occurs on the island, for the forseeable future. The one concession they've made to island concerns is to maintain existing dock structures for five years, as opposed to one year as originally planned. www.bcferries.com/files/AboutBCF/_cableferry/Cable_Ferry_brochure_-_July_2012_final.pdf
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