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Post by Low Light Mike on Apr 6, 2013 17:44:00 GMT -8
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Post by compdude787 on Apr 6, 2013 21:03:56 GMT -8
Wow, the people that signed it have the worst signatures ever! Actually I don't even know if you could call them signatures, they look like scribbles!
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Apr 6, 2013 22:14:15 GMT -8
From the last meeting I went to concerning ferry service to Denman and Hornby, there remain very serious concerns regarding the viability of this service, specifically the length of the route, and the strength of the cables controlling the ferry, and certainly the effect on the Denman Island economy from the loss of half of the present jobs on the Denman route. There is a widely held conviction that the amount of money that was spent on consultancy played a large role in coming to a favourable conclusion about the cable option. BC Ferries has apparently greenlighted this project. It remains to be seen- although I'm very doubtful- if the incoming Dix government will quarrel with the plan. Most likely, Denman and Hornby islanders will be guinea pigs for the world's longest cable ferry route, locked into forty or fifty years with a ferry no bigger than the one which is so inadequate right now in the summer months.
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Post by compdude787 on Apr 7, 2013 8:47:48 GMT -8
It remains to be seen- although I'm very doubtful- if the incoming Dix government will quarrel with the plan. So did your provincial elections happen already? And did the NDP come out on top? I'm hoping that that means more money for real new ferries to replace the Burnaby class and the NIP, and pretty much every other minor ferry that needs to be replaced. BTW you should just barrage the new government with letters and sign a petition saying that BC Ferries should stop wasting their time with this stupid cable ferry. Most likely, Denman and Hornby islanders will be guinea pigs for the world's longest cable ferry route, locked into forty or fifty years with a ferry no bigger than the one which is so inadequate right now in the summer months. Or, they might just find it so inadequate that, within the next 15 years, they'll rip it out and build a 70-car ferry to replace it.
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Post by Mike C on Apr 7, 2013 9:52:32 GMT -8
It remains to be seen- although I'm very doubtful- if the incoming Dix government will quarrel with the plan. So did your provincial elections happen already? And did the NDP come out on top? I'm hoping that that means more money for real new ferries to replace the Burnaby class and the NIP, and pretty much every other minor ferry that needs to be replaced. BTW you should just barrage the new government with letters and sign a petition saying that BC Ferries should stop wasting their time with this stupid cable ferry. Not yet - our provincial election takes place on May 14. The opinion polls heavily favour the NDP, to the tune of a 20% margin. This would be a change of government. The beginning of the 28-day campaign period is approaching, so it is at that time we will probably start hearing about our transportation infrastructure, including ferries.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Apr 7, 2013 12:36:59 GMT -8
Or, they might just find it so inadequate that, within the next 15 years, they'll rip it out and build a 70-car ferry to replace it. If "they" means the residents of those islands, you might be interested to know that in the 1950's (and probably earlier), a local Hornby Island resident became ferry operator and built his own ship, and then a larger one, and then a larger one.... But assuming that "they" means BC Ferries or whoever is running the ferry system, I think this won't happen because there will be so many other ships needing replacement at that time. Whatever ferry Denman gets, however inadequate, it will put Denman at the back of the line for future ferry replacements.
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Post by compdude787 on Apr 7, 2013 15:03:39 GMT -8
Or, they might just find it so inadequate that, within the next 15 years, they'll rip it out and build a 70-car ferry to replace it. If "they" means the residents of those islands, you might be interested to know that in the 1950's (and probably earlier), a local Hornby Island resident became ferry operator and built his own ship, and then a larger one, and then a larger one.... But assuming that "they" means BC Ferries or whoever is running the ferry system, I think this won't happen because there will be so many other ships needing replacement at that time. Whatever ferry Denman gets, however inadequate, it will put Denman at the back of the line for future ferry replacements. Don't be like my annoying younger brother; you know who I mean by "they": I mean BC Ferries. If they follow a very aggressive vessel replacement program, the earliest that BC Ferries will be able to replace the crappy cable ferry will be by 2030. But to be more realistic, it would most likely be replaced by 2035 or later. BC Ferries is going to have a full plate in terms of vessel replacement. Many of their vessels will get very old, and if they keep wasting their time on this, they are running out of time to replace their aging ferries before they become as mechanically unreliable as WSF's Klahowya. If they really are hell-bent on building this cable ferry, at least give it more capacity than what it's replacing.
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Post by compdude787 on Apr 7, 2013 15:19:34 GMT -8
I was looking at the plans that were in a post a few pages back and it seems that it's going to be a really long and skinny ferry. With 2 lanes, it will mean drastically reduced loading/ unloading times. This in turn will allow for more frequent trips, so in a sense, it might end up resulting in (slightly) more capacity than we have now. But still, having a 50-car ferry to replace a 50-car ferry on a route that requires a larger ferry is utter folly. (have we said that enough?) BTW, if you want to look at the drawings, click on the link below and scroll down to the 2nd to last page of the PDF. www.bcferries.com/bcferries/faces/attachments?id=752392
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 7, 2013 16:19:22 GMT -8
compdude787, I disagree with you. I agree with BC ferries going head with the project because it would save money and help British Columbia become cleaner.
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SolDuc
Voyager
West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
Posts: 2,055
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Post by SolDuc on Apr 7, 2013 16:32:06 GMT -8
compdude787, I disagree with you. I agree with BC ferries going head with the project because it would save money and help British Columbia become cleaner. I don't think that Compdude787 sees a problem with a cable-ferry idea, but that he is just saying that putting a 50-car ferry stuck on a run that already needs more capacity than that is not a good idea. I completely agree with him, and would see a 70/75-car cable ferry a good idea.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 7, 2013 16:53:37 GMT -8
compdude787, I disagree with you. I agree with BC ferries going head with the project because it would save money and help British Columbia become cleaner. I don't think that Compdude787 sees a problem with a cable-ferry idea, but that he is just saying that putting a 50-car ferry stuck on a run that already needs more capacity than that is not a good idea. I completely agree with him, and would see a 70/75-car cable ferry a good idea. Yeah. I agree with compdude787 now.
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Post by Mike C on Apr 7, 2013 17:07:54 GMT -8
Hi Compdude787, We have deemed last comment directed to Low Light Mike, to be uncalled for. There is no place on this forum for slander or insults. You have been banned. We will see you in one week. During this time, please reflect on your choices of words, and ensure that this does not happen again. Don't be like my annoying younger brother; you know who I mean by "they": I mean BC Ferries. --Staff (...who will now get back to finishing their buffet dinner aboard the SOBC)
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Post by Low Light Mike on Apr 7, 2013 17:29:35 GMT -8
Don't be like my annoying younger brother; you know who I mean by "they": I mean BC Ferries. Hey, I was just trying to determine who you were referring to. Next time, make it easier by being unambiguous. And no need for the angry-face icon and mention of your family to criticize my question to you. We try to keep this forum from being like "kids in the back-seat of a family car" and instead this is a place where adults discuss nerdy issues with each other without bringing external & irrelevant annoyances into the conversation.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Apr 7, 2013 18:37:29 GMT -8
compdude787, I disagree with you. I agree with BC ferries going head with the project because it would save money and help British Columbia become cleaner. Mr Cheese, regarding your two points: Quinitsa is one of BC Ferries' more economical vessels, operating at a modest speed and burning modest amounts of fuel in fairly new engines. Cable ferries use even less fuel- granted- but there is disagreement from islanders on the possible effect of cable scouring on the seabed. So the environmental advantage isn't so clear cut. As for saving money... some time back, I pointed out that, using BC Ferries' own figures, it would take almost twenty years to save enough on labour and fuel to gain back the cost of building this project. In other words AC, you might be a parent with your eldest kid entering high school by the time this thing becomes a bargain. That's if it works without glitches. People simply don't believe many aspects of the consultants' reports, and at least two of those people asking the questions have long histories of employment as officers with BC Ferries. BC Ferries is the biggest employer on Denman Island. I'm not sure of the exact number, but between fifteen and twenty islanders are employed, all at good union, family supporting wages. Half of those jobs are projected to be lost. In a community of only a thousand people, the potential loss of eight to ten families is damaging. Both Hornby and Denman are struggling to keep their elementary schools open. Keep in mind, AC, BC Ferries exists to serve coastal communities. If its future bottom line is more important than the wellbeing of the communities it serves, isn't that obligation being forgotten? Re compdude's remark on possible service efficiencies: there is no guarantee of two lane loading and unloading, and even if there is, it will be negated by the fact that the cable ferry is projected to operate at six or seven knots, as opposed to Quinitsa's nine or ten. There will be no opportunity for quicker turnarounds, and thus no increase in capacity.
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Apr 7, 2013 18:57:10 GMT -8
compdude787, I disagree with you. I agree with BC ferries going head with the project because it would save money and help British Columbia become cleaner. BC Ferries is the biggest employer on Denman Island. I'm not sure of the exact number, but between fifteen and twenty islanders are employed, all at good union, family supporting wages. Half of those jobs are projected to be lost. In a community of only a thousand people, the potential loss of eight to ten families is damaging. Both Hornby and Denman are struggling to keep their elementary schools open. Yeah I agree with you. But maybe BC Ferries will be nice, relocated some of the stuff and re-trained some to be cable maintenance people or lay off the people.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Apr 7, 2013 19:37:08 GMT -8
BC Ferries is the biggest employer on Denman Island. I'm not sure of the exact number, but between fifteen and twenty islanders are employed, all at good union, family supporting wages. Half of those jobs are projected to be lost. In a community of only a thousand people, the potential loss of eight to ten families is damaging. Both Hornby and Denman are struggling to keep their elementary schools open. Yeah I agree with you. But maybe BC Ferries will be nice, relocated some of the stuff and re-trained some to be cable maintenance people or lay off the people. There will be no 'cable maintenance people'. Denman crew will have to bump other less senior BC Ferries staffers out of jobs, if they're able to. In any event, Denman Island will lose jobs and residents and take a hit to its economy.
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Post by compdude787 on Apr 15, 2013 21:28:13 GMT -8
Hi Compdude787, We have deemed last comment directed to Low Light Mike, to be uncalled for. There is no place on this forum for slander or insults. You have been banned. We will see you in one week. During this time, please reflect on your choices of words, and ensure that this does not happen again. Don't be like my annoying younger brother; you know who I mean by "they": I mean BC Ferries. --Staff (...who will now get back to finishing their buffet dinner aboard the SOBC) FYI Mike C, I apologized to Mr. Horn about that post, and to Scott for the post on the flagship voting thread.
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Post by Mike C on Apr 15, 2013 21:37:46 GMT -8
FYI Mike C, I apologized to Mr. Horn about that post, and to Scott for the post on the flagship voting thread. The post was authored when there were no apologies in existence. I firmly stand behind the decisions that my fellow staff and I made. If you have any further questions, you can take them up with me or other staff via personal message.
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Post by compdude787 on Apr 15, 2013 21:52:00 GMT -8
FYI Mike C, I apologized to Mr. Horn about that post, and to Scott for the post on the flagship voting thread. The post was authored when there were no apologies in existence. I firmly stand behind the decisions that my fellow staff and I made. If you have any further questions, you can take them up with me or other staff via personal message. Just to clarify, I apologized to them earlier today. Were you thinking that I was saying I apologized to them before I got banned? Anyhow, you did do the right thing by banning me, because I've learned what will happen if I say stupid things like that.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Jul 5, 2013 12:55:25 GMT -8
Unfortunately, I think it's far too late for this to have any effect, but Pete Kimmerly, a retired senior master on the Hornby route, has put together a detailed website spelling out the reasons for opposing this project. If nothing else, his research may serve as an prescient indictment of the cable adventure, if things end up going wrong. www.sendintheclowns.info/
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FNS
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The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
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Post by FNS on Jul 5, 2013 17:25:19 GMT -8
So, this might be what's coming to Denman Island: Towers at each end and a trolley system attached to a ferry with electric drive motors. I found this on the web: www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/12/trolley-canal-boats.htmlActually, Denman Island may get something different than this. This is an interesting thought provided by the above mentioned site. No matter what kind of cable ferry that might appear on this run, a backup diesel generator will have to be installed aboard to propel the ferry during power failures and damage to the cables by whatever storms that may hit around that area.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,175
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Post by Neil on Jul 5, 2013 19:47:48 GMT -8
So, this might be what's coming to Denman Island: Towers at each end and a trolley system attached to a ferry with electric drive motors. I found this on the web: www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/12/trolley-canal-boats.htmlActually, Denman Island may get something different than this. This is an interesting thought provided by the above mentioned site. No matter what kind of cable ferry that might appear on this run, a backup diesel generator will have to be installed aboard to propel the ferry during power failures and damage to the cables by whatever storms that may hit around that area. No relevance to this topic... that sort of system was never considered. The Denman route is a mile long.
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Post by compdude787 on Jul 5, 2013 20:22:28 GMT -8
Unfortunately, I think it's far too late for this to have any effect, but Pete Kimmerly, a retired senior master on the Hornby route, has put together a detailed website spelling out the reasons for opposing this project. If nothing else, his research may serve as an prescient indictment of the cable adventure, if things end up going wrong. www.sendintheclowns.info/I didn't think that the cable ferry was a good idea before I saw this webpage but now, I hate it even more. I won't be surprised if it ends up like the the FastCat fiasco and fails miserably. This is just as big of a waste of money as the FastCats were, but the amount of money wasted is of a much lesser quantity. At least David Hahn knew a bad idea when he saw one; even he was opposed to this project. (Not that I agree with him about everything)
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Post by Low Light Mike on Jul 6, 2013 4:58:12 GMT -8
I encourage everyone here to read this linked response to the cable-ferry project. I found it very interesting...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 5:51:41 GMT -8
I didn't think that the cable ferry was a good idea before I saw this webpage but now, I hate it even more. I won't be surprised if it ends up like the the FastCat fiasco and fails miserably. This is just as big of a waste of money as the FastCats were, but the amount of money wasted is of a much lesser quantity. At least David Hahn knew a bad idea when he saw one; even he was opposed to this project. (Not that I agree with him about everything) Would you care to elaborate on this rant? If you stop and look at the facts, you'd be surprised to find out that it was Mr. Hahn's idea before anyone else's. Signed, -sccommuter (who will now stop yapping and get back to his traditional breakfast)
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