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Post by Taxman on Sept 30, 2009 11:48:25 GMT -8
In light of the desire of some to discuss Intercity Bussing in the pacific north west, I thought there are some paralells which we as a ferry forum may find interesting to discuss. As you may, or may not, be aware, greyhound has been engaging in service rationalization (read: Cuts), in BC, Manitoba and Western Ontario. This raises a number of questions. In the transportation industry where a private company operates in a regulated markets, how restricted should they be? Do they provide a form of "public good" (albiet not in the truest economic sense), and be expected to maintain some unprofitable routes to access the profitable ones? Should they be merely profit driven with government augmenting thier unprofitable services (or in the alternative providing subsidies, as greyhound desires)? The various structures vary greatly across the western provinces, and even within BC, where in Metro Vancouver some intercity services are provided, while long distance is provided by the Private Sector, in Saskatchewan, intercity bussing is provided by the Government, and drivers and busses change at the borders. The potential paralells to BC Ferries could be striking, although BC Ferries did not begin as a private enterprise, and thus thier "civic responsibility" component is expected by the general population to be greater than those companies which are completely privately capitalized. P.S. I hear that the Calgary's bus depot is nicer than Edmontons  Referenceswww.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/08/19/bc-greyhound-bus-cuts.html www.cbc.ca/money/story/2009/09/03/greyhound-bus-stoppage.html |
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Post by Northern Exploration on Sept 30, 2009 20:45:10 GMT -8
Somewhat similar is the regulations that the now private Air Canada is under compared to some of the competition. Grandfathered from its time as a crown corporation and in order to become a private carrier, some requirements like providing national service, announcement, and all materials in French was continued. That is a massive expense. Think of all the manuals. For example I have flown from Reagan (National) airport in Washington on a 50 Seat Canadair CRJ200 to Toronto. DCA to YYZ would only normally have one flight attendant on that 1 1/2 hour flight. On a number of occasions an extra flight attendant (extra wages) took one of those 50 seats (lost revenue because there is only one flight attendant flight jump seat) in order to provide bilingual services. The competing US Airways flight didn't have the similar requirement. Had WestJet been competing on that route they wouldn't have been required to provide the same services. Regarding bus service, Greyhound has increasing new competition on their key routes. For example MegaBus (Coach Canada) has been running service from Toronto to NYC with some seats (like Southwest Airlines) going for rediculous prices. They have just started service between Toronto, Kingston and Montreal. They are using double decker highway coaches. sales2.coachcanada.com/ With stiff competition from AC, WestJet and Porter Airlines, not to mention the busiest VIA Rail Corridor in Canada, Greyhound has its work cut out for it on this route that used to be bread and butter. So as Greyhound faces reduced income on their busiest routes it is no wonder they are looking to cut back on the traditional bus network that links so many small communities that are dependant on them. Ontario Northland services is a government mandated service to provide transportation by rail and bus in Northern Ontario and it fills the gaps that other scheduled bus services don't. Also believe it or not, the Toronto Transit Commission (TTC) used to run an intercity bus service called Gray Coach lines and it was pretty dominant. Ironically the TTC decided to concentrate on local transit only and Gray Coach was sold and eventually came under Greyhound with the northern routes under Ontario Northland. So perhaps that is the model that should be adopted on a larger scale. If Greyhound wants to cut their more remote services, perhaps government should get into the business in other provinces. And at the same time not promise to eventually get into competition with Greyhound itself. Or maybe a quid pro quo arrangement could happen where government says they wont compete and a bit ala AC require Greyhound to continue service to these communities. Just sayin. |
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Neil
Voyager 
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Oct 1, 2009 22:19:27 GMT -8
I think I have to put aside my usual anti-corporate bias, and agree with Greyhound on this one.
Inter-city bus lines- Greyhound, for the most part- can blame some of their woes on competition from the public sector. Case in point is the east coast of Vancouver Island, where in recent years, local transit systems from Victoria to Campbell River have expanded beyond the confines of the cities they serve. The Courtenay system now extends south to Buckley Bay, a good twenty minutes by highway from the city center. You'll never be able to move all the way up or down the island by hopping from system to system, but Greyhound has lost much of the business they formerly had moving people from the outskirts into town.
There's no point in Greyhound crying about this. The expansion of transit systems is a good thing, and the public wants it. But there are gaps between towns and between local systems, and the business that is left is not always enough to run a profitable inter-city bus company. If we want those gaps filled, and we want the private sector to do it, then we should subsidize their losses. When the public sector is partly to blame for poaching Greyhound's customers, I don't see how it's fair to force them to run routes at a loss so they can keep the ones that are profitable.
The tough attitude shown by the feds at Greyhound's threats to abandon routes is laughable, given their usual stance as corporate patsies. Better to quit playing brinkmanship, and come up with a transportation stategy that involves either having the public sector filling all the bus transportation gaps that need to be filled, or paying the private sector to do it for us.
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Post by mybidness459 on Aug 17, 2016 13:15:32 GMT -8
The Greyhound/Tofino Bus depot in Campbell River has moved. It is now located in Tyee Plaza right across from the Quadra Island Ferry terminal.
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Post by roeco on Oct 21, 2016 7:44:33 GMT -8
The Island is an interesting piece in the inter city bus network in BC. Tofino Bus which is an interline carrier on the Island and COmpetes with Greyhound between Victoria and Nanaimo,plus took over all the other runs Greyhound didn't want on the Island seems to be doing quite well for itself with much lower operating costs and able to adapt schedules to local needs. I think you will eventually see Greyhound exit passenger service on the Island totally as Tofino Bus can do a much better job and they have proven that. In terms of the rest of BC... Greyhound has reduced a lot of services, But I think the service is much more workable for them now then before...some services had way too much capacity for what was needed. And Greyhound is tweaking their routes all the time to make them just a little better, and as u have noticed they are now looking at Terminals, ones which are much too big for what is now needed, Campbell River is a prime example, as well as they have relocated Edmonton and Victoria and you will soon see Kamloops possibly being relocated in 2017. They relocated Sudbury,Ont and Im sure in the next few years their will be more...!
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jul 9, 2018 12:10:13 GMT -8
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 9, 2018 13:56:21 GMT -8
This news along with previous postings regarding service cuts on Vancouver Island and Northern B.C. presents a DIRE problem for the government of B.C. Given the ungodly cost of airfares, how are the majority of non-motorists supposed to travel within British Columbia much less Western Canada? And NO, the railways are NOT an option as their fares put passage out of reach to many travellers as well. I disagree with 'Blue Bus Fan' however that Translink and/or B.C. Transit should be involved in providing services on the curtailed Greyhound routes. (Translink for one has enough on its plate now and going forward). I suppose the first order of business is to establish an inter B.C. carrier while working with the transportation ministries of Alberta (good luck), Saskatchewan and Manitoba to establish a Western Canadian service either through the establishment of a new company or offering incentives to currently existing motor carriers to cobble together a new inter-provincial service. This is an infrastructure problem that presents dire problems for a large portion of the populations of B.C. and Western Canada and will require some skill and diplomacy to solve this problem. Can we do it? It will be a challenge! |
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on Jul 9, 2018 14:19:29 GMT -8
This news along with previous postings regarding service cuts on Vancouver Island and Northern B.C. presents a DIRE problem for the government of B.C. Given the ungodly cost of airfares, how are the majority of non-motorists supposed to travel within British Columbia much less Western Canada? And NO, the railways are NOT an option as their fares put passage out of reach to many travellers as well. I disagree with 'Blue Bus Fan' however that Translink and/or B.C. Transit should be involved in providing services on the curtailed Greyhound routes. (Translink for one has enough on its plate now and going forward). BC Transit are establishing routes that complete with Intercity routes so if BC Government was logical they would expand those routes with BC Transit to replace the private intercity bus operates. The only way intercity coach is going to work in British Columbia will be subsidy from Provincal Goverment for operator so it should be crown corporation operating so it can have accountability which BC Transit is already and could easily take over intercity routes. Why I say BC Transit and TransLink should take over intercity routes because they could do better planning, they could have advisement for routes and could work with cities, regions and with each other so that routes are useable, useful to public and be planned to connect to local transit systems. |
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Post by Starsteward on Jul 9, 2018 15:53:57 GMT -8
This news along with previous postings regarding service cuts on Vancouver Island and Northern B.C. presents a DIRE problem for the government of B.C. Given the ungodly cost of airfares, how are the majority of non-motorists supposed to travel within British Columbia much less Western Canada? And NO, the railways are NOT an option as their fares put passage out of reach to many travellers as well. I disagree with 'Blue Bus Fan' however that Translink and/or B.C. Transit should be involved in providing services on the curtailed Greyhound routes. (Translink for one has enough on its plate now and going forward). BC Transit are establishing routes that complete with Intercity routes so if BC Government was logical they would expand those routes with BC Transit to replace the private intercity bus operates. The only way intercity coach is going to work in British Columbia will be subsidy from Provincal Goverment for operator so it should be crown corporation operating so it can have accountability which BC Transit is already and could easily take over intercity routes. Why I say BC Transit and TransLink should take over intercity routes because they could do better planning, they could have advisement for routes and could work with cities, regions and with each other so that routes are useable, useful to public and be planned to connect to local transit systems. Thanks for filling in the information regarding what BC Transits role might be in the establishment of bus service routes abandoned by Greyhound. I concur that this endeavour will need the complete financial support of the B.C. Government. This situation brings back to mind the situation/forces that spawned the creation of the B.C. Ferry and Toll Authority back in the early days of Premier W.A.C. Bennett's long regime. |
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Post by Mike C on Feb 1, 2019 11:01:18 GMT -8
As a quick note: Pacific Coach Lines (PCL), former operator of the Vancouver-Victoria bus services, will officially cease operations on March 31st of this year.
PCL lost the contract for the Vancouver-Victoria service, their “bread and butter” route, in 2016. However, the final blow came as they lost the YVR-Whistler SkyLynx route late last year. The end of PCL marks yet another significant blow to the intercity bus industry, after Greyhound pulled out of Western Canada last year.
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grk
Chief Steward
Posts: 227
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Post by grk on Feb 1, 2019 20:32:49 GMT -8
This ends a long chapter in the lower mainland bus industry. Pacific Coach Lines has an interesting history. In the 1970s the company was part of BC Hydro, and ran as Pacific Stage Lines. In 1979 PSL was merged with another government owned bus company. Vancouver Island Coach Lines joined up with PSL, and Pacific Coach Lines became the new operating name. At that time the charter operations were sold off, and International Stage Lines ( formed by 3 PSL drivers) was the new start up operator. The sightseeing division was sold off as well, with the Airporter company in Vancouver taking the mainland portion, and a Seattle business man took over the Victoria sightseeing. In 1984 Pacific Coach Lines went fully private sector, with 3 managers purchasing the Victoria-Vancouver cross water portion of the company. In the early 2000s they sold out to Asian buyers, and the down hill slide accelerated. The present owners also have Cantrail, and some employees at PCL see this move as another attempt at union busting!
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Feb 1, 2019 21:00:27 GMT -8
This ends a long chapter in the lower mainland bus industry. Pacific Coach Lines has an interesting history. In the 1970s the company was part of BC Hydro, and ran as Pacific Stage Lines. In 1979 PSL was merged with another government owned bus company. Vancouver Island Coach Lines joined up with PSL, and Pacific Coach Lines became the new operating name. At that time the charter operations were sold off, and International Stage Lines ( formed by 3 PSL drivers) was the new start up operator. The sightseeing division was sold off as well, with the Airporter company in Vancouver taking the mainland portion, and a Seattle business man took over the Victoria sightseeing. In 1984 Pacific Coach Lines went fully private sector, with 3 managers purchasing the Victoria-Vancouver cross water portion of the company. In the early 2000s they sold out to Asian buyers, and the down hill slide accelerated. The present owners also have Cantrail, and some employees at PCL see this move as another attempt at union busting! End of a very long era. I don't believe transit services, as we now know them, encompassed all of metro Vancouver until the early 1970s. I remember, around 1974, taking a Pacific Coach Lines bus from North Delta to downtown... it was a route that started in Cloverdale, and zigzagged around suburbia. Pacific Stage Lines, and later Pacific Coach Lines, was how you got around metro Vancouver outside of the north shore, Vancouver, New Westminster, Richmond, and Burnaby, where transit services operated. Long term, there might have to be a province wide strategy to cover the disappearing long haul routes operated by companies such as Greyhound with transit systems. |
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 1, 2019 22:17:10 GMT -8
Long term, there might have to be a province wide strategy to cover the disappearing long haul routes operated by companies such as Greyhound with transit systems. This is needed A.S.A.P. There needs in my opinion to be two strategies. One led by each province for surface transportation on major (and some secondary) highways within the province. The second strategy would be led by the federal government for east-west across Canada surface transportation. Perhaps integrating highway & rail should be part of this. I believe that passenger rail service should be re-established on CP's mainline & improved on CN.
Lack of transportation options just makes it more likely that people will do risky things such as hitching rides. Remember the "Highway of Tears".
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Post by Mike C on Feb 2, 2019 12:46:54 GMT -8
Long term, there might have to be a province wide strategy to cover the disappearing long haul routes operated by companies such as Greyhound with transit systems. This is needed A.S.A.P. There needs in my opinion to be two strategies. One led by each province for surface transportation on major (and some secondary) highways within the province. The second strategy would be led by the federal government for east-west across Canada surface transportation. Perhaps integrating highway & rail should be part of this. I believe that passenger rail service should be re-established on CP's mainline & improved on CN.
Lack of transportation options just makes it more likely that people will do risky things such as hitching rides. Remember the "Highway of Tears".
There is a direct correlation between the safety and security of the most vulnerable in small communities, and affordable transportation (or lack thereof, in this case). Rider Express, the lone company that operates between Vancouver and Calgary, currently operates once weekly. The bus company that was supposed to begin operating to Prince George through Quesnel and Williams Lake has been granted yet another 30-day extension to get their act together. This is unacceptable and should be rectified by the Province, who possess jurisdiction over this matter. There is no need to reinvent the wheel: provincially and federally subsidized bus (BC Bus North) and rail (VIA) services currently exist in Northern BC, and I can’t idenfity a reason why it would be unfeasible to expand this initiative province-wide. |
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Post by Starsteward on Feb 2, 2019 16:28:07 GMT -8
This ends a long chapter in the lower mainland bus industry. Pacific Coach Lines has an interesting history. In the 1970s the company was part of BC Hydro, and ran as Pacific Stage Lines. In 1979 PSL was merged with another government owned bus company. Vancouver Island Coach Lines joined up with PSL, and Pacific Coach Lines became the new operating name. At that time the charter operations were sold off, and International Stage Lines ( formed by 3 PSL drivers) was the new start up operator. The sightseeing division was sold off as well, with the Airporter company in Vancouver taking the mainland portion, and a Seattle business man took over the Victoria sightseeing. In 1984 Pacific Coach Lines went fully private sector, with 3 managers purchasing the Victoria-Vancouver cross water portion of the company. In the early 2000s they sold out to Asian buyers, and the down hill slide accelerated. The present owners also have Cantrail, and some employees at PCL see this move as another attempt at union busting! End of a very long era. I don't believe transit services, as we now know them, encompassed all of metro Vancouver until the early 1970s. I remember, around 1974, taking a Pacific Coach Lines bus from North Delta to downtown... it was a route that started in Cloverdale, and zigzagged around suburbia. Pacific Stage Lines, and later Pacific Coach Lines, was how you got around metro Vancouver outside of the north shore, Vancouver, New Westminster, Richmond, and Burnaby, where transit services operated. Long term, there might have to be a province wide strategy to cover the disappearing long haul routes operated by companies such as Greyhound with transit systems. Pacific Stage Lines operated a service from New Westminster to White Rock and Crescent Beach from as far back as 1950. I have old black and white photos of my Dad and Uncle posing in their dress slacks, shirt and tie with sports jackets, looking all very natty as they headed off to a company 'evening event' in Cloverdale. I remember quite vividly taking the 'PCL' on day trips to the beach at White Rock and Crescent Beach, because on one of those trips my Mother wasn't keeping a close eye on my sunbathing time and I ended up with on 'H' of a sunburn for which my Mom felt real bad, but not as bad as the trip home to Burnaby I had to endure. The ride was 'PCL' from White Rock to New West., ( I think to the old B.C. Electric tram station at Columbia St. and 8th Street). From there the return trip from hell was provided by the 'Second Street' bus operated by the then B.C. Electric. And, don't anyone dare to ask me why I remember THAT trip!  |
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Post by Starsteward on Feb 2, 2019 16:38:52 GMT -8
Long term, there might have to be a province wide strategy to cover the disappearing long haul routes operated by companies such as Greyhound with transit systems. This is needed A.S.A.P. There needs in my opinion to be two strategies. One led by each province for surface transportation on major (and some secondary) highways within the province. The second strategy would be led by the federal government for east-west across Canada surface transportation. Perhaps integrating highway & rail should be part of this. I believe that passenger rail service should be re-established on CP's mainline & improved on CN.
Lack of transportation options just makes it more likely that people will do risky things such as hitching rides. Remember the "Highway of Tears".
And how many letters/e-mails have any of us sent to our Federal M.P.'s about this woeful transportation mess across B.C. and the rest of the country with copies to our Provincial M.L.A's? To a large degree we 'the people' have let all levels of government off the hook on this vital issue! It's time that voters in the large urban areas of the province take a breather from debating the endless B.C. Transit issues and lend a voice of assistance to our brothers and sisters that live and work in our rural and remoter areas of our province!  |
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Post by northwesterner on Feb 3, 2019 8:57:56 GMT -8
This is needed A.S.A.P. There needs in my opinion to be two strategies. One led by each province for surface transportation on major (and some secondary) highways within the province. The second strategy would be led by the federal government for east-west across Canada surface transportation. Perhaps integrating highway & rail should be part of this. I believe that passenger rail service should be re-established on CP's mainline & improved on CN.
Lack of transportation options just makes it more likely that people will do risky things such as hitching rides. Remember the "Highway of Tears".
There is a direct correlation between the safety and security of the most vulnerable in small communities, and affordable transportation (or lack thereof, in this case). Rider Express, the lone company that operates between Vancouver and Calgary, currently operates once weekly. The bus company that was supposed to begin operating to Prince George through Quesnel and Williams Lake has been granted yet another 30-day extension to get their act together. This is unacceptable and should be rectified by the Province, who possess jurisdiction over this matter. There is no need to reinvent the wheel: provincially and federally subsidized bus (BC Bus North) and rail (VIA) services currently exist in Northern BC, and I can’t idenfity a reason why it would be unfeasible to expand this initiative province-wide. The reason why it would be unfeasible is of course, money. No doubt Greyhound's "issues" led to a death spiral in their business model. But for everyone who says the gov't should just step in and operate it themselves and it will be successful, I point to Saskatchewan, where they ran that model for many years, with beautiful equipment. When the gov't finally pulled the plug, and the operating numbers came out, they were shockingly bad. Is the BC gov't or the federal gov't willing to accept those kind of numbers on some kind of expanded subsidized over the road bus operation? |
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Post by SS San Mateo on May 13, 2021 8:47:11 GMT -8
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Post by Blue Bus Fan on May 13, 2021 11:04:46 GMT -8
How am I not shocked by First Group decision to end Greyhound. I found that First Group employees had very bad customer service because they said taking pictures of public transit buses is illegal which an RCMP official said it legal to take pictures of public transit. |
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