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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 9, 2008 20:36:14 GMT -8
Wow, anyone else think some of those routes are like beaten a dead horse??  |
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Post by ruddernut on May 9, 2008 20:39:37 GMT -8
Wow, anyone else think some of those routes are like beaten a dead horse?? Like I said, the idea is to replace some of the car ferry sailings, which use up a lot more fuel. |
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Post by EGfleet on May 10, 2008 5:40:15 GMT -8
Wow, anyone else think some of those routes are like beaten a dead horse?? Pretty much, since state law prohibts any direct competition with state ferries. Bremerton and Kingston both had to receive waivers for the law, and we all saw how successful that went.  |
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Post by ruddernut on May 10, 2008 6:18:26 GMT -8
Wow, anyone else think some of those routes are like beaten a dead horse?? Pretty much, since state law prohibts any direct competition with state ferries. Bremerton and Kingston both had to receive waivers for the law, and we all saw how successful that went. I actually meant for them to be run by the state ferry company itself. Here's an idea: 1. Reduce the car ferry sailings. 2. Jack up the fares for automobiles. 3. Use the profits/savings to subsidize the pax ferries. A 3000-lb hunk of steel should cost more than just 2-3 times as much to transport than a 150-lb human anyways. |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 10, 2008 8:00:36 GMT -8
Pretty much, since state law prohibts any direct competition with state ferries. Bremerton and Kingston both had to receive waivers for the law, and we all saw how successful that went. I actually meant for them to be run by the state ferry company itself. Here's an idea: 1. Reduce the car ferry sailings. 2. Jack up the fares for automobiles. 3. Use the profits/savings to subsidize the pax ferries. A 3000-lb hunk of steel should cost more than just 2-3 times as much to transport than a 150-lb human anyways. The problem is places like the San Juan's a Passenger ferry just won't work they need their cars there also need a bigger inter-island ferry, but that isn't going to happen right now. Al most of the places that you are saying are place that have been tried more then once and they just don't have the rider ship. If anything more car ferries but Not passenger only boats. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 10, 2008 8:15:50 GMT -8
The problem is places like the San Juan's a Passenger ferry just won't work they need their cars there also need a bigger inter-island ferry, but that isn't going to happen right now. Can they bike it, or park their cars at the side of the road near the ferry terminal? They could also get a transit system. Saltspring Island just got one, and Bowen has had one for quite some time. |
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Post by BreannaF on May 10, 2008 8:21:27 GMT -8
You know, the more I study your second proposed route map, the more I am finding myself convinced that you really are on to something here. I only see a couple of problems with it: 1) What do you have against the fine people of Southworth and Ruston? A Southworth to Seattle pax ferry would certainly keep a lot of cars out of Seattle and West Seattle. And it would only be fair to connect Pt Defiance with Talequah and Seattle with a passenger ferry. Traffic could bypass I-5 and its nasty traffic coming in from Tacoma. Besides, since they are the only areas WSF serves that have not been represented yet, then if anyone complains, we just tell them to tough it out because all of the riders on all of the routes have to deal with it equally. 2) I think it would be totally appropriate to consider Suquamish and Indianola as possible additional stops for one of these ferry routes. They have a past history of ferry service. Having these additional stops would save having to widen SR 305 again in the future. Besides, there is plenty of land around there for parking -- just cut down a swatch of the trees along the beach. The neighbours will love making the gesture to save the environment. 3) This idea has given me inspiration! If we are going to add passenger ferries, we can adapt the idea to Seattle's Eastside, too. If we closed the SR 520 and I-90 bridges all but during peak hours, we could encourage people to use public transportation for all their trips. We could close the bridges for all except a fleet of buses that would take passengers from one side to the other. A transit center/exchange at each end would allow connections to all parts of the city. The bridge idea will make sense since its operated by WSDOT and: 1. We would reduce car trips on the bridges, reducing wear and tear, especially on 520. 2. We would add tolls (and jack them up) for automobiles. 3. Use the profits to subsidize the fleet of buses. I think we should submit our ideas right away! That's Paula Hammond at hammonp@wsdot.wa.gov. ;D |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 10, 2008 8:21:42 GMT -8
The problem is places like the San Juan's a Passenger ferry just won't work they need their cars there also need a bigger inter-island ferry, but that isn't going to happen right now. Can they bike it, or park their cars at the side of the road near the ferry terminal? They could also get a transit system. Saltspring Island just got one, and Bowen has had one for quite some time. If you knew the San Juan's you would know that the answer is not really, there isn't a lot of room around any of the docks let alone room enough for when line ups happen. |
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Post by Kahloke on May 10, 2008 8:33:24 GMT -8
There is a seasonal passenger only ferry which runs during the summer from Bellingham (the Alaska Ferries terminal at Fairhaven) to the San Juans and Victoria. It says it makes a stop on Orcas, although their website doesn't say where on Orcas - perhaps Rosario? Here's the link: www.islandcommuter.com/index.phpI suspect that such a service would only generate enough ridership during the summer months which is why it is seasonal. To answer Ruddernut's question, there is transit service on San Juan Island, and Orcas has a shuttle bus now. Plus, several of the resorts have van service to and from the ferry terminals and airports, and there is taxi service on San Juan and Orcas; perhaps on Lopez, too. Also, there are rental car options on San Juan, Orcas, and maybe on Lopez, plus bike rentals, and scooter rentals. San Juan Island is really the only destination where you don't need your car or some form of vehicular transportation, because it's the only island where the ferry lands in the town. As far as the inter-island ferry goes, once Hiyu gets through it's limited time assignment this spring, we will probably see the Evergreen State as the permanent inter-island ferry, at least for awhile (and not counting maintenance time when there will need to be a sub), so that will actually be an increase of ferry size for this route. What does the future hold - who knows? |
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Post by Kahloke on May 10, 2008 8:39:05 GMT -8
You know, the more I study your second proposed route map, the more I am finding myself convinced that you really are on to something here. I only see a couple of problems with it: 1) What do you have against the fine people of Southworth and Ruston? A Southworth to Seattle pax ferry would certainly keep a lot of cars out of Seattle and West Seattle. And it would only be fair to connect Pt Defiance with Talequah and Seattle with a passenger ferry. Traffic could bypass I-5 and its nasty traffic coming in from Tacoma. Besides, since they are the only areas WSF serves that have not been represented yet, then if anyone complains, we just tell them to tough it out because all of the riders on all of the routes have to deal with it equally. 2) I think it would be totally appropriate to consider Suquamish and Indianola as possible additional stops for one of these ferry routes. They have a past history of ferry service. Having these additional stops would save having to widen SR 305 again in the future. Besides, there is plenty of land around there for parking -- just cut down a swatch of the trees along the beach. The neighbours will love making the gesture to save the environment. 3) This idea has given me inspiration! If we are going to add passenger ferries, we can adapt the idea to Seattle's Eastside, too. If we closed the SR 520 and I-90 bridges all but during peak hours, we could encourage people to use public transportation for all their trips. We could close the bridges for all except a fleet of buses that would take passengers from one side to the other. A transit center/exchange at each end would allow connections to all parts of the city. The bridge idea will make sense since its operated by WSDOT and: 1. We would reduce car trips on the bridges, reducing wear and tear, especially on 520. 2. We would add tolls (and jack them up) for automobiles. 3. Use the profits to subsidize the fleet of buses. I think we should submit our ideas right away! That's Paula Hammond at hammonp@wsdot.wa.gov. ;D that's HILarious! You may have made my morning with this ;D |
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Post by ruddernut on May 10, 2008 8:46:30 GMT -8
Can they bike it, or park their cars at the side of the road near the ferry terminal? They could also get a transit system. Saltspring Island just got one, and Bowen has had one for quite some time. If you knew the San Juan's you would know that the answer is not really, there isn't a lot of room around any of the docks let alone room enough for when line ups happen. So you mean they have to lug their cars onboard and pay all the extra cost, when everything they need upon arriving at Friday Harbor is most likely within walking distance from the terminal? |
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Post by ruddernut on May 10, 2008 8:51:04 GMT -8
There is a seasonal passenger only ferry which runs during the summer from Bellingham (the Alaska Ferries terminal at Fairhaven) to the San Juans and Victoria. It says it makes a stop on Orcas, although their website doesn't say where on Orcas - perhaps Rosario? Here's the link: www.islandcommuter.com/index.phpI suspect that such a service would only generate enough ridership during the summer months which is why it is seasonal. Thanks for the info. Perhaps the fares listed on this page may tell you why the demand is so low. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 10, 2008 8:54:34 GMT -8
1) What do you have against the fine people of Southworth and Ruston? A Southworth to Seattle pax ferry would certainly keep a lot of cars out of Seattle and West Seattle. And it would only be fair to connect Pt Defiance with Talequah and Seattle with a passenger ferry. Traffic could bypass I-5 and its nasty traffic coming in from Tacoma. Besides, since they are the only areas WSF serves that have not been represented yet, then if anyone complains, we just tell them to tough it out because all of the riders on all of the routes have to deal with it equally. How does Southworth-Vashon-Seattle sound? As for Ruston, aren't they better off going down to Tacoma to catch a Sounder? 3) This idea has given me inspiration! If we are going to add passenger ferries, we can adapt the idea to Seattle's Eastside, too. Or expand light rail across the lake? |
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Post by Kahloke on May 10, 2008 9:12:14 GMT -8
Or expand light rail across the lake? Light rail is supposed to expand across the lake, or so Sound Transit keeps promising. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 10, 2008 20:21:14 GMT -8
1) What do you have against the fine people of Southworth and Ruston? A Southworth to Seattle pax ferry would certainly keep a lot of cars out of Seattle and West Seattle. And it would only be fair to connect Pt Defiance with Talequah and Seattle with a passenger ferry. Traffic could bypass I-5 and its nasty traffic coming in from Tacoma. Besides, since they are the only areas WSF serves that have not been represented yet, then if anyone complains, we just tell them to tough it out because all of the riders on all of the routes have to deal with it equally. Upon rereading and getting the gist of your post and intended sarcasm... You mean to tell me some NIMBYs are more equal than others? I bet a ghetto dweller would have no say in the matter if a new highway were to be built right in front of his home. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 11, 2008 12:56:32 GMT -8
If you knew the San Juan's you would know that the answer is not really, there isn't a lot of room around any of the docks let alone room enough for when line ups happen. So you mean they have to lug their cars onboard and pay all the extra cost, when everything they need upon arriving at Friday Harbor is most likely within walking distance from the terminal? Case in point: www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/fares/FaresDetail.aspx?tripdate=20080511&departingterm=15&arrivingterm=10As you can see, it costs $20.85 to take a car on the ferry from Orcas to Friday Harbor, but free of charge for foot passengers. It's a bloody scam that there isn't more parking available near the ferry landing at Orcas, so you could just walk on the ferry to go shopping, dining or whatever in FH. I have little doubt that transit service can work on the islands, as seen in this notice from BC Transit regarding transit service for Saltspring that was just started this January, whose ridership exceeded expectations. www.bctransit.com/regions/ssi/schedules/pdf/ssi-alert-1067.pdfAn inter-island shuttle ferry with a schedule coordinated with the transit buses on the islands should also work out well. |
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Post by Kahloke on May 11, 2008 13:35:25 GMT -8
It's a bloody scam that there isn't more parking available near the ferry landing at Orcas, so you could just walk on the ferry to go shopping, dining or whatever in FH. I have little doubt that transit service can work on the islands, as seen in this notice from BC Transit regarding transit service for Saltspring that was just started this January, whose ridership exceeded expectations. An inter-island shuttle ferry with a schedule coordinated with the transit buses on the islands should also work out well. 1. Parking at Orcas: it's not a scam that there is limited parking in Orcas Village; it has more to do with the steep terrain and limited land availability in that area. In order to get the current ferry holding lot that is there now, they had to dynamite the hill to create that space, so it's not as simple as finding a lot somewhere and turning it into a parking lot. Besides, people do park their cars at Orcas and walk on the inter-island ferry. In the summertime, you'll see cars parked alongside the main road for just that purpose. 2. Transit service does work in the islands, and is already an available option, most especially during the summer months. 3. I'm not sure a dedicated passenger-only inter island ferry is warranted at this time. The regular inter-island ferry provides decent service between the islands and has more than enough room for passengers and cars. Don't forget that there are plenty of vehicles which use the inter island ferry, too. Besides tourists, you have commercial services and even some commuters who need their vehicles, particularly on the islands where the commercial centers are not close to the ferry terminal, like Orcas and Lopez. Besides, for businesses who make deliveries or have contracts on other parts of the islands, transit really isn't an option. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 11, 2008 15:48:50 GMT -8
3. I'm not sure a dedicated passenger-only inter island ferry is warranted at this time. The regular inter-island ferry provides decent service between the islands and has more than enough room for passengers and cars. Don't forget that there are plenty of vehicles which use the inter island ferry, too. Besides tourists, you have commercial services and even some commuters who need their vehicles, particularly on the islands where the commercial centers are not close to the ferry terminal, like Orcas and Lopez. Besides, for businesses who make deliveries or have contracts on other parts of the islands, transit really isn't an option. How about if they had the big boats do the rounds of the Islands from Anacortes and back just 3-4 times a day, and had the passenger ferries buzz around at times inbetween? Could that work? The direct connection to Bellingham and/or Victoria (as shown on the map) should also be a treat to the Islanders, eh (and no, I don't mean the private luxury tourist cruise)? I'd have one sailing in both directions between Bellingham and Vic in the morning and another in the evening, and add more to meet demand. |
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Post by Kahloke on May 11, 2008 17:17:49 GMT -8
How about if they had the big boats do the rounds of the Islands from Anacortes and back just 3-4 times a day, and had the passenger ferries buzz around at times inbetween? Could that work? They do that already on a limited basis, more so during the off-season when the inter-island ferry's operating hours are reduced. For example, some ferries that travel from Anacortes to Lopez, Shaw, & Orcas will allow inter-island traffic between Lopez, Shaw, & Orcas, particularly when the inter-island ferry is doing a loop run. The same goes for ferries going from Anacortes to Lopez & Friday Harbor. Take a look at the San Juans schedule sometime - you'll get the idea. As far as having the big boats do complete round-trips of all of the islands, essentially doing an all-stops run, those days are over. It used to be that way a long time ago, but traffic volumes built up to the point where that really wasn't sustainable. That's when the concept of the inter-island ferry was born, and it seems to work. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 11, 2008 21:52:33 GMT -8
How about if they had the big boats do the rounds of the Islands from Anacortes and back just 3-4 times a day, and had the passenger ferries buzz around at times inbetween? Could that work? They do that already on a limited basis, more so during the off-season when the inter-island ferry's operating hours are reduced. For example, some ferries that travel from Anacortes to Lopez, Shaw, & Orcas will allow inter-island traffic between Lopez, Shaw, & Orcas, particularly when the inter-island ferry is doing a loop run. The same goes for ferries going from Anacortes to Lopez & Friday Harbor. Take a look at the San Juans schedule sometime - you'll get the idea. As far as having the big boats do complete round-trips of all of the islands, essentially doing an all-stops run, those days are over. It used to be that way a long time ago, but traffic volumes built up to the point where that really wasn't sustainable. That's when the concept of the inter-island ferry was born, and it seems to work. Hopefully, the tide's turning back towards reduced automobile use. Imagine if you had the big boats doing the rounds as suggested once every, say, 4 hours or so, and to compensate, had the pax ferries circle the islands on an hourly schedule, possibly in both directions. And with faster vessels at that. How awesome would that be? |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 12, 2008 8:52:13 GMT -8
"Imagine if you had the big boats doing the rounds as suggested once every, say, 4 hours or so, and to compensate, had the pax ferries circle the islands on an hourly schedule, possibly in both directions. And with faster vessels at that. How awesome would that be?" Is this like some sort of high school carbon foot print reduction idea? I mean really, are these ideas about cost and the over all environmental impact or just passenger ferries for the heck of it. Because none of these ideas sound very thought out.
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Post by ruddernut on May 12, 2008 8:59:19 GMT -8
"Imagine if you had the big boats doing the rounds as suggested once every, say, 4 hours or so, and to compensate, had the pax ferries circle the islands on an hourly schedule, possibly in both directions. And with faster vessels at that. How awesome would that be?" Is this like some sort of high school carbon foot print reduction idea? I mean really, are these ideas about cost and the over all environmental impact or just passenger ferries for the heck of it. Because none of these ideas sound very thought out. Sorry, I should not have used high school style slang like "awesome", since it seems to have given a wrong impression. (Mind you, I was hoping nobody would nitpick about it.) But yes, it's all about cost reduction, fuel conservation, environmental impact AND greater convenience for those who do not bring out their car. |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 12, 2008 11:59:46 GMT -8
"Imagine if you had the big boats doing the rounds as suggested once every, say, 4 hours or so, and to compensate, had the pax ferries circle the islands on an hourly schedule, possibly in both directions. And with faster vessels at that. How awesome would that be?" Is this like some sort of high school carbon foot print reduction idea? I mean really, are these ideas about cost and the over all environmental impact or just passenger ferries for the heck of it. Because none of these ideas sound very thought out. Sorry, I should not have used high school style slang like "awesome", since it seems to have given a wrong impression. (Mind you, I was hoping nobody would nitpick about it.) But yes, it's all about cost reduction, fuel conservation, environmental impact AND greater convenience for those who do not bring out their car. ruddernut this has nothing to do with words such as awesome so much as it has to do with understanding the areas of what you speak and the logistics of the ideas and other environmental concerns that your ideas raise. IE deforestation, rock blasting, urban infrastructure such as more roads, alterations to rural watershed and taking more tribal land to make parking lots. |
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Post by ruddernut on May 12, 2008 12:41:08 GMT -8
Sorry, I should not have used high school style slang like "awesome", since it seems to have given a wrong impression. (Mind you, I was hoping nobody would nitpick about it.) But yes, it's all about cost reduction, fuel conservation, environmental impact AND greater convenience for those who do not bring out their car. ruddernut this has nothing to do with words such as awesome so much as it has to do with understanding the areas of what you speak and the logistics of the ideas and other environmental concerns that your ideas raise. IE deforestation, rock blasting, urban infrastructure such as more roads, alterations to rural watershed and taking more tribal land to make parking lots. Well, something was done to put the existing car ferry network, as well as every other type of infrastructure, into place. Do nothing and live with past mistakes and the status quo forever? |
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Post by whidbeyislandguy on May 12, 2008 12:53:54 GMT -8
I am not talking about past ideas or mistakes. I am however saying that the places you are saying should have passenger only ferry service are all places that there really is no point because they have and need CAR FERRIES.
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