Spirits are #2

[glasseye]

Aug 3, 2010 22:26:08 GMT -8 Mill Bay said:

There are few, if any, commercial vehicle ferries in the world that use more than two multiple vehicle decks.

There are a number of very large European open ocean ferries with more than two vehicle decks. Both Stena Hollandica and MS Ulysses, for instance, have six vehicle decks loaded via internal ramps.

These things make the Spirits look like toys.

[Mill Bay]

Alright, well, I am aware of the fact that some larger ferries have additional vehicle decks loaded from on board the vessel itself. I was thinking of the MV Ulysses at the time, anyway. Something like loading four vehicle decks at the same time using only a two level shore based ramp. They use internal ramps and stowable platforms and hatches over the tween decks to access additional spaces. A lot of it is drop trailer traffic, as well. They also speed turnaround times by unloading from the bow while beginning to load for the next sailing at the stern.

Like i said, before, we might see new ships built with extra vehicle decks accessed by internal structures, but I doubt you will ever see a shore side loading ramp with more than two levels. Why? Because what`s the point? Also, who is going to pay for all this infrastructure? Despite what you say, the Spirits are only really restricted to route 1 on purpose, just for operations` sake, not because they couldn`t, in theory, use the berths on other routes. Now, a ship with three completely separate cardecks might be able to work on other routes if it could still access the ramps for two of the decks, but then you`d be sailing with even more empty space than people are complaining about now?

Also, despite what you say, none of the vessels previously on any major routes were incapable of moving to another route because they couldn`t fit the infrastructure. When the ships were first converted to multiple vehicle decks, the dock structures were upgraded at the same time. Despite what you said, the Coastals have now operated on all four of the major routes, so I don`t even know where you got the idea that they are route-restricted. And let`s think about it logically. In reality, there are already four ships in the fleet that have a dedicated third vehicle deck. All four of the original C-class have the infamous gallery decks which provide that function.

The Spirits also have had the option of a third vehicle deck, which just seems more impracticable than anything else, and traffic levels simply don`t seriously demand the use of those platforms, so why would we need an extra full width vehicle deck. Traffic levels don`t require it. For most of the year, there are no real overloads on the major routes and the ships deployed there are adequate to the capacity. Why would we need to add extra vehicle decks to new vessels that wouldn`t even be necessary, not even in fifty years, I guarantee you?

[BreannaF]

Aug 3, 2010 22:35:23 GMT -8 @lmtengs said:

Think about when vehicle ferries first started being built, there were few if any in existence at the time. Think of when ferries with two car decks first came into existence. There were few if any in existence at the time. Our province is getting better, Ernie, and in a few years (okay, maybe more like 50), we're going to need bigger ferries to travel our ferry routes if people don't stop buying cars.

Hypothetical question: Are we going to need bigger ferries, or are we going to need more ferries? Remember that a bigger ferry, especially one with more decks, will take much longer to load.

Perhaps people shouldn't stop buying cars -- they are very useful for a lot of things. However, over the next several years, one way to increase capacity might be to make it much easier to travel between urban centers on the Island and on the Mainland utilizing some sort of transit. I'll bet we could eliminate a lot of car trips by making it totally easy to go from, say, Victoria to Vancouver via express buses with really reliable connections, or even a light rail connecting Victoria to Swartz Bay and Tsawwassen to various places in the Vancouver area.

In other words, there are doubtless a lot of trips where a car is not necessary, except to get to and from the ferry.

Besides, when I was young, we were promised that we would have flying cars by the year 2000. Where's my flying car?! Maybe you will have one by 2050. (I'll be at the high end of my life expectancy by then, but I always root for a better world for my kids.)

[lmtengs]

Aug 4, 2010 22:12:58 GMT -8 BreannaF said:

Hypothetical question: Are we going to need bigger ferries, or are we going to need more ferries? Remember that a bigger ferry, especially one with more decks, will take much longer to load.

Answers:
A) There's going to be a limit to the number of ferries we have in the strait. Even now there's only a 40 minute grace period between rte. 1 ferries at Tsawwassen, so if we buy even just 2 or 3 more for that route, that'll drop down to something like 10 minutes, maybe less (no I didn't do the math), which leaves zero room for error. So unless we want to build more berths, so we can have multiple (up to three, i'm thinking) ferries loading and unloading at the same time, then bigger ferries is the answer. Also, I think many ferries would cost more to maintain than not-so-many bigger ferries.

B) If we DO go with the three FULL level approach, with three ramp levels and the like, then loading times would be minutely affected, as we could have all three decks loading simultaneously. I actually think it would take less than 5 minutes longer. It WOULD involve higher crewing on the ship, obviously.

a light rail connecting Victoria to Swartz Bay and Tsawwassen to various places in the Vancouver area.

That's a great idea, and I've been pondering that a lot recently. I can't decide between more of a high-speed train approach, like in the case of England/France's Channel Tunnel, or just an extension to our SkyTrain. Whatever approach we take, it should terminate on the East side at Waterfront Station in Vancouver, and on the West side somewhere near the parliament, in a tunnel so it doesn't affect the street-scape too much in Victoria... Yep, this is just me again with my multi-trillion dollar projects that we can ALL afford SOOOO easily.....

Besides, when I was young, we were promised that we would have flying cars by the year 2000. Where's my flying car?! Maybe you will have one by 2050. (I'll be at the high end of my life expectancy by then, but I always root for a better world for my kids.)

We already have floating cars, and that's all I'll ever want

[Mac Write]

Actually maybe a Deck 5 car deck with full width ramps that go down to deck 4 would work. One problem is that DAMN Transport Canada requirement no passengers in vehicles while the ramp is being loaded, also it would most likely add to loading time. I think the long/short term option will be to go to 4 sailings year round, and then add a 6/10PM sailings. Aldo they can increase route 30 sailings from every 2 1/2hrs to every 1hr 15 minutes. and go to hourly service on route 2. This should drastically increase capacity before more ferries are needed.

[Scott]

Some scattered thoughts:

If the buses at Tsawwassen were as well planned out as the buses at Horseshoe Bay, there would be no need for any rapid transit line. West Vancouver's Blue Buses usually do a very excellent job of anticipating heavy loads and providing extra buses at Horseshoe Bay and downtown. Swartz Bay also has a good regular service, although I have less experience using it during busy times.

I doubt there will ever be the need for 3 vehicle decks. We've already discussed the Spirit's platform decks, and they're not even deemed worth using. If you're going to be unloading 3 decks of ferries at once, you'll also need to expand the highways leading to and from the terminals... going from 6 lanes to one lane through Tsawwassen will cause a traffic jam right back to the ferry.

The terminals would also need massive expansion to accomodate extra ramps - this would probably be impossible everywhere except Tsawwassen and maybe Duke Point.

Adding an extra round trip or two per day is definitely much cheaper. Ferries with three car decks would be useless deadweight for 70% of the year.

If the population of Vancouver Island grows that much in 50 years, foot passenger service would be much more feasable and profitable.

And where would most of the population growth take place on the Island? I'm guessing, but it would probably be the central island, Duncan, Nanaimo, Courtenay. There's plenty of room for extra trips on route 2 and even room for an extra one or two-deck ferry or two on route 30, if it was deemed neccessary.

[ferryfanyvr]

The Spirits are also scheduled to be on the even-hour sailings starting at 0600 on Saturday Sept 4th. The tour buses that use route 1 are of course loaded on all sailings, but the majority seem to be scheduled aboard the odd-hour sailings. The 0900 ex-Tsawwassen and the 1700 ex-Swartz Bay are the busiest sailings with sometimes 15 or 20 buses on them....which means the New West will be extremely crowded at 1700 on Sept 4th.

[FerryDude2012]

Aug 9, 2010 21:24:40 GMT -8 ferryfanyvr said:

The Spirits are also scheduled to be on the even-hour sailings starting at 0600 on Saturday Sept 4th. The tour buses that use route 1 are of course loaded on all sailings, but the majority seem to be scheduled aboard the odd-hour sailings. The 0900 ex-Tsawwassen and the 1700 ex-Swartz Bay are the busiest sailings with sometimes 15 or 20 buses on them....which means the New West will be extremely crowded at 1700 on Sept 4th.

Absolutely correct. My father, who is working on the Queen of New Westminster all summer, said that the ship was absolutely packed when the New West became #1 on August 1st. He said on the first trip at 7:00am, almost the whole lower vehicle deck was tour busses, along with a few PCLs. On the ship, people were constantly asking for the Pacific Buffet and the Spas. People were sitting on the floor, the outside decks were crowded, and that there were so many foot passengers waiting for the New West sailings, that there were cutoffs on almost every sailing. It will be interesting to see if it will be any different on September 4. Out off all the route 1 ships in this changeover, the Queen of New Westminster will probably be slammed the most, in terms of passenger loads, and less amenities. That's just my two cents.

[ferryfanyvr]

I was on the New West today 1400 ex-Swartz Bay. A relatively quiet sailing for the summer....mid-week, off peak, etc. and I lost track of how many passengers I heard muttering to each other things like "this small boat", "no buffet", "is THIS the top deck?". So I can just imagine the comments when she sails on the busier sailings in the summer. I almost got a bit defensive since she may be smaller and older but hey, she's nice and new inside and of course has a feeling of heritage about her. But I guess non-ferry-geeks wouldn't think that way

[FerryDude2012]

I am planning to go on a round trip on the Queen of New Westminster this Saturday on her 4:00pm and 6:00pm sailings. I'll keep track of the passengers comments, and the observations on how she is compared to the Spirits and Coastal Celebration.
Also, one of the Chief Stewards on the New West has a big sign saying "NO BUFFET ON THIS VESSEL." I guess many non-ferry geeks, and tourists assume every vessel on Route 1 must have a buffet.

[Koastal Karl]

Why did or do they have to move the ships to different sailing anyways ?? Cant they keep the New West on the even hours?? What is the point of switching??

[FerryDude2012]

The most logic reason is that so in the morning, the Spirits can take all the early morning heavy traffic that comes to the terminal first thing in the morning. And towards the end of the day, the last sailings don't tend to be busy, so the Spirits can leave an hour early on the normal #2 ship sailings, and the #2 ships can take the light load at the end of the day.
Although it doesn't really make a difference in the middle of the day, the New West and Celebration will be slammed with a lot of passengers expecting the Spirits.
And of course, the Spirits most likely won't be affected by it that much, the crew just get off an hour earlier than the #2 ships.

[ferrytraveller]

Yah they do that so the spirits get a jump on the day. We do get slammed on the new west. Its just life. Its un believeable how many people want a buffet.

[FerryDude2012]

I can imagine so. My father, who is working on the New West as we speak, says that a lot of passengers ask the people on front line in the Coastal Cafe where the Buffet is. It's even worse when a few crew members don't show up for work on time, or don't show up at all. BC Ferries didn't miss the boat when it comes to passenger loads and scheduling, but it really slams the crew on the Queen of New Westminster.

[lmtengs]

I guess the Queen of New West is turning into the 'Queen of Esquimalt' of route one. The slow boat. The one with not enough amenities. The small boat. Kinda sad to see her turning that way

Maybe BCF should put a mark next to all of the Queen of New West sailings on the schedules mentioning that it's a smaller ship, and has no buffet, the same way that they do for the Nimpkish's sailings up north and the Bowen Queen's sailings to SGI from TSA.

[FerryDude2012]

Aug 12, 2010 14:59:21 GMT -8 @lmtengs said:

I guess the Queen of New West is turning into the 'Queen of Esquimalt' of route one. The slow boat. The one with not enough amenities. The small boat. Kinda sad to see her turning that way

Maybe BCF should put a mark next to all of the Queen of New West sailings on the schedules mentioning that it's a smaller ship, and has no buffet, the same way that they do for the Nimpkish's sailings up north and the Bowen Queen's sailings to SGI from TSA.

That's not neccessarily true. The Queen of New Westminster is capable of doing up to 22 knots, although her service speed on the BC Ferries website is 20 knots, so she can go faster than the Spirits.
Amenities wise, it's not that much of a big deal. Minus the Pacific Buffet and the Spas, she has all the amenities that the rest of the route 1 vessels have. Remember when the Queens of Vancouver and Saanich were still running, I heard a lot of poor comments about them, being "old, disguisting, filthy, small, bucket of nails" from other passengers. The Queen of New Westminster is able to keep up with Route 1 demand. Also note that the 'New West does replace the Queen of Alberni in the off season, so the Buffet would be useless anyway. The sailing is 1.5 hours, I'm sure everyone can survive. Also, Routes 2 and 30 vessels don't have Buffets, and you rarely see anyone ask or look for it, because they are used to it. It's just a matter of tourists and non-ferry geeks being spoiled with the Buffet.

Also, look at the current set up on the 'New West right now, where would they fit it? Every amenity is already small, squished and crammed(Except the Seawest Lounge). The Coastal Cafe doesn't have much seating, so it extends to the Mid-Ship Lounge, the Passages Gift Shop is slightly smaller than the other vesssels, The Coast Cafe Express takes up 1/4 or 1/3 of a TV Lounge already, so it would be EXTREMELY squished if the Buffet was squeezed in there.

[Koastal Karl]

I dont think the New West should be on route 1 to be honest! I love the New West but I think she is better suited for route 30 with the Alberni! Tsawwassen should get the Inspiration!

[lmtengs]

Aug 12, 2010 18:48:22 GMT -8 Koastal Karl said:

I dont think the New West should be on route 1 to be honest! I love the New West but I think she is better suited for route 30 with the Alberni! Tsawwassen should get the Inspiration!

I think that the Inspiration is needed on Rte. 30. They need something with lots of vehicle space since there are so few sailings on that route. Since BC Ferries doesn't really have any vessels with two vehicle decks and adequate pax. space for rte. 1 to replace the New West, I can see the Queen of Surrey being added to rte. 1. She would not replace any ship, she would just be an addition. I can actually see the 'Surrey becoming an ALL-reservation ship. If this happened, then some other sailings during the day could become 'no-reservations' sailings. The Queen of Coquitlam would stay on route 3, and the Queen of Burnaby would be moved to rte. 3 with the Coquitlam. The Queen of Chilliwack would move to the Little River route, where the schedule would need to be adjusted to work with her slower speed, and the soon-to-be-built Northern Discovery would replace the Queen of Chilliwack on rte. 40.

[gordon]

B.C. Ferries wants the CI on RT#30 to draw traffic traffic from Rt#2, and on weekends 2 sail waits happen. Doesn't BcFS have an issue with C Class Vessels transiting Active Pass. B.C. Ferries is a couple of Vessels major short . How much of a mess would Horseshoe Bay be without Route #30?

Note The coastals probably largest over height-Oversize vehicle capacity in the fleet.

[FerryDude2012]

Honestly, I think the current set up for the vessels are fine. Possibly the Queen of Burnaby move down to Route 9 and the Queen of Nanaimo moves up to Route 17 occasionally, but I think the vessels are fine where they are.

Horseshoe Bay WITHOUT Route 30 would be total chaos. There would be a lot of overheight trucks, and obviously much more vehicles and passengers. One solution could be to add a fourth vessel, but that would mean another crew to operate it, which is more money spent for BC Ferries. Tsawwassen - Duke Point was created to give trucks another option, and to give vehicles a second choice in heading over to Nanaimo.

If the Coastal Inspiration were to move to Tsawwassen, all the crews would have to be familiarized with the vessel, and get the proper safety equipment license and training. And besides, the Tsawwassen crews are VERY happy with the current vessels they have got. All they complain about sometimes is the crowds on the Spirit, but that's normal. If the Queen of New Westminster returned to being permanently on route 30, Tsawwassens options are to either put the Queen of Alberni on Route 1, or switch her with the Coastal Inspiration. The QNW and Queen of Alberni are pretty equal on Route 30, in terms of speed and on time performance, but the New West takes an extra 5 minutes for the "power-slide" at Duke Point. The QNW shouldn't be criticized by what route she operates on, she is a fast vessel that can stay on time on her schedule. She shouldn't be placed on a route because of her amenities, she was placed on Route 1 because of her speed, and increased capacity compared to the Queen of Vancouver.
That's my two cents.

[lmtengs]

I must say, I do like having the QoNW on rte. 1. She's a 'cozier' ship, if that makes any sense. The spirits and Coastals are just so HUGE. The Queen of New West is perfect for wandering on. I also love the Spaulding design, so she's my fave on rte. 1. She may be the old mama, but she's a reliable old mama

I can't get over how foolish BC Ferries was to dump the Saanich. She'd have been so useful as a surplus "i'm here for when you can't handle the crowds on your own" vessel. When she isn't really needed on a route, she could just hang around route one providing supplementary service or something...

[ferryfanyvr]

People already complain about the CI being over-built for rt30...but if the New West were moved to that route permanently, people would also complain (including me!)...how many millions of $ were spent to upgrade her passenger ammenities?...not needed on the Duke Point run. Leave her on rt1 where she now belongs! In a perfect world, the classic-C's wouldn't only be able to transit Active Pass without a hassle, but their gallery decks could also be removed. By now we should all know these two things will never happen!

[FerryDude2012]

Very well said ferryfanyvr and Luke. The Queen of New Westminster is better suited for Route 1, and the Coastal Inspiration should stay on Route 30. It would simply be too much hassle for the crews to be trained on an unfamiliar vessel, and for the Queen of New West to take out some amenities that aren't needed on Route 30, such as the Seawest Lounge.
We don't mean to disrespect those who have their own opinions about where vessels should go, but we are basically explaining the most logic reasons for why BC Ferries placed certain vessels on certain routes and terminals.
It's just the Route 1 tourists, and non-ferry geek passengers who expect a Pacific Buffet on every Route 1 ship, and expecting other uneccessary amenities. The point of a ferry is to get you from Point A to Point B, and BC Ferries is doing the best they can to make sure every vessel is suited for it's current route.

[Kahloke]

Judging by what I saw during my trip on Route 30 last week, they really need CI where it is for the additional overheight/large vehicle capacity during the summers. Granted, the passenger deck space is overkill, but it seems like 2 sailing waits for overheights was occurring a lot last week. Of course, the Queen of Nanaimo incident and the holiday Monday may have had something to do with that. Still, I think CI is the right vessel for the route.

[ferryfanyvr]

Too bad the travelling public has trouble remembering that just a couple years ago if they didn't catch a Spirit on an odd-hour, they ended up on the Saanich or Vancouver. As much as I miss those 2 ships, the CC and NW provide much superior services and environment in comparison.

The reason I started this thread was because these rt1 schedules starting at 0600 happened in the past.. a couple times each summer season.....but the Spirits still stayed on the odd-hour sailings. I just found it curious that BCF had decided to change that fact this year. I wish I had Saturdays off....if so I would like to take a trip Sept 4th to experience the #2 as #1 scenario!