Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2014 18:26:21 GMT -8
George Capacci confirmed that the Cathlamet sailing in question was overloaded by 480 people.
480!
The capacity of the vessel is printed for all to see on the WSF fleet page. It is absolutely stunning incompetence that terminal staff could have been so uninformed about how many people should have been let onboard... this is the kind of thing we shake our heads at when we see it in conjunction with a disaster in some third world country.
Is there a systemic problem here?
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 20, 2014 19:51:46 GMT -8
George Capacci confirmed that the Cathlamet sailing in question was overloaded by 480 people.
480!
The capacity of the vessel is printed for all to see on the WSF fleet page. It is absolutely stunning incompetence that terminal staff could have been so uninformed about how many people should have been let onboard... this is the kind of thing we shake our heads at when we see it in conjunction with a disaster in some third world country.
Is there a systemic problem here? I think there are a few things at play here... 1) vessel walk on capacity can fluctuate with staffing levels (which is a new thing here) and apparently the rescue capacity of the second ship on the route (old news). 2) Bremerton so rarely sees loads of this nature that the terminal staff just wasn't up to snuff 3) Terminal staff counts walk ons on the "non fare" side by hand. Presumably there was more than one staff member with a tally counter. Who knows how accurate this is. I think that the system that BCF has at Langdale (a parking garage ticket printer - push to issue a ticket, must be turned into to terminal staff before boarding) is far superior. At least there is one piece of paper to count for each person.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Aug 20, 2014 21:04:44 GMT -8
George Capacci confirmed that the Cathlamet sailing in question was overloaded by 480 people.
480!
The capacity of the vessel is printed for all to see on the WSF fleet page. It is absolutely stunning incompetence that terminal staff could have been so uninformed about how many people should have been let onboard... this is the kind of thing we shake our heads at when we see it in conjunction with a disaster in some third world country.
Is there a systemic problem here? I think there are a few things at play here... 1) vessel walk on capacity can fluctuate with staffing levels (which is a new thing here) and apparently the rescue capacity of the second ship on the route (old news). 2) Bremerton so rarely sees loads of this nature that the terminal staff just wasn't up to snuff 3) Terminal staff counts walk ons on the "non fare" side by hand. Presumably there was more than one staff member with a tally counter. Who knows how accurate this is. I think that the system that BCF has at Langdale (a parking garage ticket printer - push to issue a ticket, must be turned into to terminal staff before boarding) is far superior. At least there is one piece of paper to count for each person. I'm assuming that WSF, like BC Ferries, lists its vessels' capacities at the maximum allowable, with optimum conditions and a full crew complement. That being the case, Cathlamet would never set sail with more than 1200 passengers on board, and any WSF personnel would be expected to know that.
Perhaps I'm being too hard on the shore staff. Didn't any of the crew twig that, hey, there's a heckuva lot of people on board... as in almost 40% more than maximum allowable? How did the boat ever leave the dock? We may be getting awfully complacent about marine transit safety when we allow that "staff just wasn't up to snuff' because they don't usually deal with such numbers of customers passing through.
It might be uncharitable to make such a characterization, but it could be said that the latter part of George Capacci's tenure as WSF head honcho has been marked by vessel breakdowns, overloadings, and the delivery of a new car ferry that can't properly load cars because someone didn't pay enough attention to ramp incline. Again... the question might be asked about a systemic problem.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 20, 2014 21:15:14 GMT -8
I think there are a few things at play here... 1) vessel walk on capacity can fluctuate with staffing levels (which is a new thing here) and apparently the rescue capacity of the second ship on the route (old news). 2) Bremerton so rarely sees loads of this nature that the terminal staff just wasn't up to snuff 3) Terminal staff counts walk ons on the "non fare" side by hand. Presumably there was more than one staff member with a tally counter. Who knows how accurate this is. I think that the system that BCF has at Langdale (a parking garage ticket printer - push to issue a ticket, must be turned into to terminal staff before boarding) is far superior. At least there is one piece of paper to count for each person. I'm assuming that WSF, like BC Ferries, lists its vessels' capacities at the maximum allowable, with optimum conditions and a full crew complement. That being the case, Cathlamet would never set sail with more than 1200 passengers on board, and any WSF personnel would be expected to know that.
Perhaps I'm being too hard on the shore staff. Didn't any of the crew twig that, hey, there's a heckuva lot of people on board... as in almost 40% more than maximum allowable? How did the boat ever leave the dock? We may be getting awfully complacent about marine transit safety when we allow that "staff just wasn't up to snuff' because they don't usually deal with such numbers of customers passing through.
It might be uncharitable to make such a characterization, but it could be said that the latter part of George Capacci's tenure as WSF head honcho has been marked by vessel breakdowns, overloadings, and the delivery of a new car ferry that can't properly load cars because someone didn't pay enough attention to ramp incline. Again... the question might be asked about a systemic problem.
Despite my points above, I am in agreement with all you've said. I don't know how much of this can be placed on Capacci, and how much of it is just systemic. My first thought about that pax count on the Cathlamet was ... uhm, wasn't the cabin pretty packed out. Even if the terminal staff screwed up, shouldn't someone from the deck department have taken a look around and radioed the bridge "hey do you want to confirm the pax count before we leave .... there's way too many people in here?" But in regards to systems, use hand tally counters probably isn't the best way to load a ferry. That particular system may need reform.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2014 8:18:25 GMT -8
On BCF minor routes where no fare is paid at a terminal, the Ship's Mate has a clicker in his/her hand to tally up the passenger count when passengers go past the ramp. Langdale is the only terminal where footsies present a boarding pass, and passengers in vehicles are accounted for at the booths. To this day I don't know how all those boarding passes are counted in the matter of a couple of minutes before the ship leaves. Does the machine log how many passes are issued? Are the passes inserted into a "cash-counter"?
What is the system exactly at WSF? Seems like it would be hard to account for everyone with a simple 'clicker.'
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Post by PeninsulaExplorer on Aug 21, 2014 9:05:20 GMT -8
On BCF minor routes where no fare is paid at a terminal, the Ship's Mate has a clicker in his/her hand to tally up the passenger count when passengers go past the ramp. Langdale is the only terminal where footsies present a boarding pass, and passengers in vehicles are accounted for at the booths. To this day I don't know how all those boarding passes are counted in the matter of a couple of minutes before the ship leaves. Does the machine log how many passes are issued? Are the passes inserted into a "cash-counter"? What is the system exactly at WSF? Seems like it would be hard to account for everyone with a simple 'clicker.' They use a clicker at the no pay for walk on passengers terminal. Correct me when I am wrong.
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Post by chokai on Aug 21, 2014 11:58:52 GMT -8
If it's a manual clicker process like that someone is going to have to add the numbers up for walk-ons, cars etc and relay them up to the captain. That should happen before they pull away but I could see how if they were behind/busy it might happen after. As it was it doesn't sound like they got very far into the crossing? It could have been only a few minutes, that's something we haven't seen.
They should probably implement a system like what Sound Transit has on Link with electronic counters on the doors, you could simply put it near the entrance to the overhead passenger bridge or on the doors to boat itself. That could be tied to totals from the tollbooths and give the captain a running total electronically, shouldn't be super hard.
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Post by northwesterner on Aug 21, 2014 12:01:38 GMT -8
On BCF minor routes where no fare is paid at a terminal, the Ship's Mate has a clicker in his/her hand to tally up the passenger count when passengers go past the ramp. Langdale is the only terminal where footsies present a boarding pass, and passengers in vehicles are accounted for at the booths. To this day I don't know how all those boarding passes are counted in the matter of a couple of minutes before the ship leaves. Does the machine log how many passes are issued? Are the passes inserted into a "cash-counter"? What is the system exactly at WSF? Seems like it would be hard to account for everyone with a simple 'clicker.' One question is how pax are accounted for in cars. If the booth is tallying these pax that's all find and good but the cars loaded at the margin will not be clear to the booth as to who is getting on which sailing.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Aug 21, 2014 13:19:13 GMT -8
This talk about methods of counting is a bit irrelevant with regard to the Cathlamet incident. Clearly, in exceeding capacity by almost 40%, the problem wasn't in missing a few heads... it was ferry staff not knowing how many people were allowable on that vessel.
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Post by Kahloke on Aug 21, 2014 13:52:38 GMT -8
This talk about methods of counting is a bit irrelevant with regard to the Cathlamet incident. Clearly, in exceeding capacity by almost 40%, the problem wasn't in missing a few heads... it was ferry staff not knowing how many people were allowable on that vessel. I think it was just a giant collective "brain fart" on the parts of the terminal and vessel staff. I don't know how else to explain it. It's not like Cathlamet is a different size vessel than they are used to at Bremerton. It's virtually the same as Kitsap, with the same capacity, and the terminal surely knows that (at least I would think so). I believe the Seahawk game day crowds simply caught the staff off-guard, and they did not react in a timely manner, and thus, 400+ people slipped through the cracks. It's not an excuse. Clearly, they should have been more on top of it.
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Post by PeninsulaExplorer on Sept 7, 2014 9:15:09 GMT -8
When the Kitsap comes back into service the Cathlamet will go to the Fauntleroy-Vashon-Southworth route to relieve the Evergreen State which will be the new standby vessel and won't be retired anymore. This is all according to the Washington State Ferries service impact page.
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 7, 2014 18:38:02 GMT -8
When the Kitsap comes back into service the Cathlamet will go to the Fauntleroy-Vashon-Southworth route to relieve the Evergreen State which will be the new standby vessel and won't be retired anymore. This is all according to the Washington State Ferries service impact page. Cathlamet's going to DCI, Sealth is going to F-V-S, then Chelan will fill in, then Sealth again, and finally, Cathlamet will go there in November after her maintenance work is completed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 17, 2014 20:26:08 GMT -8
It is nice to hear that the Cathlamet will be going to the San Juans for the weekend. This is being done because she is scheduled to have work done at Dakota Creek in Anacortes.
Ana/SJs - Cathlamet replaces Kaleetan, 9/19 Beginning with the 4:15 a.m. departure from Anacortes on Friday, Sept. 19, the 124-vehicle Cathlamet will replace the 144-vehicle Kaleetan on the Anacortes/San Juan Island route. Check the online schedule to see which sailings are affected. This vessel repositioning is in preparation for the fall sailing schedule which begins Sunday. Drivers are encouraged to plan their travels accordingly.
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 18, 2014 4:33:35 GMT -8
It is nice to hear that the Cathlamet will be going to the San Juans for the weekend. This is being done because she is scheduled to have work done at Dakota Creek in Anacortes It's nice unless you happen to be going to the islands this Friday and get left at the dock because the ferry you are catching now carries 20 fewer cars. It is, however, a temporary thing, so I guess this, too, shall pass.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2014 4:22:29 GMT -8
The Cathlamet will be switching with the Yakima and going to drydock on Sunday. I am going to go to Friday Harbor today. I am in line for the 6:25AM right now. Not too busy, 4th in line.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 23, 2014 16:33:36 GMT -8
Re the overloaded Cathlamet - it wasn't overloaded. It was the clicker-counters that messed up. News story: HERE8 page WSF report: HEREreport excerpt here: oops.
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FNS
Voyager
The Empire Builder train of yesteryear in HO scale
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Post by FNS on Sept 23, 2014 17:26:32 GMT -8
Re the overloaded Cathlamet - it wasn't overloaded. It was the clicker-counters that messed up. News story: HERE8 page WSF report: HEREreport excerpt here: oops. I guess it's always a good idea to reset the clicker to "Zero", unless you have to click in the number of passengers in vehicles already in line before the boarding process begins. Then, add some more to the clicker from late coming cars (that arrive after the boarding begins) as announced from the tollbooth on the "walky-talkies".
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Post by Low Light Mike on Sept 26, 2014 12:39:18 GMT -8
Re the overloaded Cathlamet - it wasn't overloaded. It was the clicker-counters that messed up. News story: HERE8 page WSF report: HEREreport excerpt here: Was this outcome as surprising and unexpected to others (considering the discussion here), as it was to me?
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Post by zargoman on Oct 1, 2014 15:22:34 GMT -8
Well, I sure haven't posted on here in a LONG time. The Cathlamet worked as the #1 boat in Anacortes on Thursday and Friday, 9/19-9/20. At Orcas Island Just after passing between Blakely and Willow Islands Enjoying the scenery of the San Juans
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Post by Barnacle on Oct 1, 2014 17:55:35 GMT -8
Well, I sure haven't posted on here in a LONG time. Welcome back, Zack! Didn't get to work with you at all this summer, but at least you had a steady gig!
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Post by zargoman on Oct 1, 2014 20:42:09 GMT -8
Well, I sure haven't posted on here in a LONG time. Welcome back, Zack! Didn't get to work with you at all this summer, but at least you had a steady gig! Definitely the best route in the fleet IMO. We had the Kaleetan most the time, but were visited by the Cathlamet on the last day of the schedule. My photos for Fall will be Walla Walla and Spokane related.
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SolDuc
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West Coast Cyclist
SolDuc and SOBC - Photo by Scott
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Post by SolDuc on Oct 18, 2014 11:43:23 GMT -8
The Cathlamet's summer vacation at Bremerton allowed for some pretty unique photos, and in good weather unlike last time that happened... Classic Bremerton arrival thru-shot: MV Cathlamet approaching Bremerton - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr "Full Astern!" MV Cathlamet approaching Bremerton - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr Showing off some Tokina Power, I know. I like how big the ferry looks in this shot. MV Cathlamet landing at Slip 1, Bremerton - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr Empty car deck. Before you all go out screaming that an Issaquah is way too much for Bremerton, let me tell you that this was taken before they loaded the cars. We did have a heavy load with ~5 spaces left. Car Deck, MV Cathlamet - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr The Faux Wood interior is much better than the Kitsap's. Cabin, MV Cathlamet - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr Lifering and Bridge: Bridge, MV Cathlamet - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr Departing Seattle on the 3pm: MV Cathlamet outbound from Slip 1, Seattle - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr August sunset shot: MV Cathlamet at Slip 1, Seattle - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr Morning run to Seattle - August 17: MV Cathlamet en-route to Seattle - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr In front of the Seattle skyline: MV Cathlamet en-route to Bremerton - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr Entering Rich Passage: MV Cathlamet en-route to Bremerton - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr With the Puyallup at Seattle - September 5: MV Cathlamet at Slip 1 and MV Puyallup at Slip 3, Seattle - Washington State Ferries by SolDuc Photography, on Flickr
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 14:59:20 GMT -8
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Post by Cascadian Transport on Nov 2, 2014 15:43:51 GMT -8
Loading at Mukelteo, right? A sight that is long gone. In other news, tomorrow, if the maintenance schedule speaks true, the Cathlamet move to the Triangle. I think that a ferry can't be called a true Vashon ferry until it takes out one of the route's slips. ...The Cathlamet will fit in just fine.
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 3, 2014 16:56:30 GMT -8
Something happened to the outboard end of the ferry in your photo...
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