Mill Bay
Voyager 
Long Suffering Bosun
Posts: 2,885 
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Post by Mill Bay on Sept 27, 2007 21:46:26 GMT -8
Well KAM I have to agree.... I think that she would be a much better vessel for BCF than for WSF. I am afraid she wouldn't be favoured by WSF since she is a single ender. I am not sure how many crews would even know how to operate her. I could see her at Earls Cove, it would be fun riding her there. What about eyeing her as a replacement for the Queen of Chilliwack...? Maybe if they enclosed the middle passenger deck a bit to provide some overnight cabin space, they could use this one for the discovery coast route. That big forward viewing lounge would definitely be an asset on that run, and then she would become the regular on the Earl's Cove run in winter. |
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Post by EGfleet on Sept 28, 2007 7:33:38 GMT -8
Leaky ferries put Keystone-Port Townsend run at risk
No options exist for replacing the old boats on the route, the state ferries director says.
By Kaitlin Manry
Herald Writer
OLYMPIA -- While two of the state's oldest ferries sat in a shipyard awaiting repair, legislators and ferry executives grappled Thursday with the possibility that at least one of the vessels is beyond hope and must be retired.
The state's four 80-year-old Steel Electric-class ferries are "nearing the end of their useful life," but there is no money to replace them, Washington State Ferries Executive Director Mike Anderson told legislators during Senate and House transportation committee meetings.
Results of a hull survey of the ferry Nisqually are due next week. If the results aren't good, the boat could be retired, Anderson said.
"We have to figure out how much money you should put into an old, old boat like that," he told lawmakers.
The Steel Electric ferries are the only vessels in the state's fleet agile enough to navigate the rough water and narrow harbors between Keystone on Whidbey Island and Port Townsend on the Olympic Peninsula. If the ferries fail to meet the Coast Guard's new, beefed-up safety standards, "there are no viable options to replace the vessels," Anderson said.
Consequently, there is a risk the route could be closed, officials concede.
Even previously mentioned options such as using passenger-only ferries or borrowing ferries from other communities have been eliminated. Study shows those ideas are impractical or impossible, Anderson said.
If the route between Whidbey Island and Port Townsend is closed, even temporarily, it could dramatically affect the economies there, while adding hours to commute times, officials said.
In order to prevent the route from being shut down, Sen. Mary Margaret Haugen, D-Camano Island, said she may push ferry system officials to redraft recently approved plans for building four new 144-car ferries over the next several years.
She wants the state to instead consider building two ferries that will fit into Keystone Harbor on Whidbey -- something only the Steel Electrics can now do. The 144-car ferries the state wants to build are simply too big to serve the route.
"We're going to do everything we possibly can not to close it," said Haugen, chairwoman of the Senate Transportation Committee.
She also said she'll push to keep the state's Steel Electrics in service. "As long as the Coast Guard says these boats are safe, we're going to run them," she said.
The state has wrestled much of the year with a string of hull cracks and other problems on its Steel Electric-class boats. Since March, the state has spent $3.5 million patching leaks, replacing stern tubes and repairing other unanticipated problems, Anderson said.
In March, ferry officials operated the Klickitat for two days with a six-inch crack in the hull. Coast Guard inspectors ordered the boat pulled from service for mandatory repairs after discovering what they described in official reports as a "hazardous/unsafe condition."
The latest troubles have revolved around corrosion of the stern tubes, the cast-iron pipes that house the ferries' propeller shafts where they run through the hull. The stern tubes have been in saltwater since 1927, when the Steel Electrics were first launched in California's San Francisco Bay.
The Coast Guard ordered closer inspection of the stern tubes after a 20-inch crack developed in July in a stern tube on the Illahee. The crack allowed water to stream into the hull at a rate of five gallons per minute. That stern tube, as well as its twin on the other end of the ferry, was deemed too corroded for continued use. Replacements were fabricated and the Illahee returned to service earlier this month in the San Juan Islands.
The same stern tube problem was discovered on the Quinault. Crews at Todd Shipyards in Seattle are attempting repairs.
The Nisqually was pulled from service early this month to undergo inspection mandated by the Coast Guard. Only the Klickitat is now operating between Whidbey Island and Port Townsend.
Rep. Lynn Kessler, D-Hoquaim, majority leader of the House, said she's growing weary of waiting for state ferry officials to come up with a plan to replace the system's oldest ferries.
"There's a lot of pressure to make decisions, especially in light of the four Steel Electrics that seem to be collapsing all at once," she said. "I'm hopeful they'll push the decision process along more quickly than they have been. It's been taking too long."
State lawmakers in 2001 approved building new ferries and have set aside nearly $350 million to complete the work. At the time the new vessels were authorized, replacing the aging Steel Electrics was the priority. Ferry officials, however, decided to build bigger boats.
Washington State Ferries is preparing a special report that analyzes options for replacing the Steel Electrics. Anderson told legislators he expects to have some preliminary results by January. However, with a tightening budget and a recent state audit that suggests cutting service to save money, new boats are likely years away, lawmakers were told Thursday.
"The Steel Electrics have become an urgent need," Anderson said. "We'll have to move it up the priority list, which means something will have to fall."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2007 18:07:07 GMT -8
Well I am not saying that EVERYONE in fleet wouldn't know what to do with her. Espically if she was in the Islands. There is probably some very good crews that would do just fine with her. So don't bristle at the statement I made. But since WSF doesn't operate any single enders then I makes me wonder how easy it would be to get used to one. BTW.... I have no problem back on a ferry and do better than most drivers with reverse. LOL!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2007 18:08:35 GMT -8
Mill Bay I like your idea of her as a replacement for the "Chilliwack" perhaps BCF could make her the "Northern Discovery". It looks like one would have some good viewing from her passenger cabin going up to Bella Coola.
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Post by SS Shasta on Oct 12, 2007 20:38:00 GMT -8
I thought WSF decided that smaller vessels would be used at Port Townsend/Keystone. Is this part of the puzzle still being discussed by WSF management or DOT?  |
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Post by hergfest on Oct 12, 2007 23:28:00 GMT -8
As of right now, that is their solution. The communities on both sides, especially Port Townsend, didn't want bigger boats "flooding the town" with cars. Plus it would probably mean decreased service during the summer as they could keep only one boat on the run and keep up with traffic.
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Post by Barnacle on Oct 14, 2007 20:16:49 GMT -8
Nah... it's that Port Townsend likes having people held hostage in the lot by smaller boats, thus boosting their retail dollar income.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Oct 14, 2007 20:20:38 GMT -8
What about Keystone? Afraid of SR 20 having an extra 60 cars a sailing when they could easily add in a bike trail of a traffic light for terminal traffic? There are simple solutions yet they are saying no to make this hard for the customer. Seriously, was it just a few people or was it a majority of the town?
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Post by Barnacle on Oct 14, 2007 20:22:03 GMT -8
I don't know on a factual basis. On a theoretical one, when has something like this NOT been dominated by a fanatical, vocal minority?
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Post by BreannaF on Nov 21, 2007 7:45:23 GMT -8
Now that the whole PT-Keystone route is on hold due to the pulling of the steel electrics, I just had a few random thoughts before I go take a nice nap. In no particular order:
Does this line from the article mean the Snohomish will service the route just over the Thanksgiving Weekend, or until further notice?
What is the draft on a Pacificat? Of course it is probably too big in other ways for the dock, but who knows? I'll bet any issue with the Jones Act could be dealt with as a "temporary emergency measure" if push came to shove.
Does BC Ferries (or anybody else) have something on hand that they could trade to WSF for one WSF's boats on a temporary basis? Too many problems with that too, I suppose.
I suppose we now know for sure that the Hiyu can't cross a shipping lane. Or that would have been an option here. Or nobody at WSF has taken 10 minutes to look at the list of available ferries and work it out.
Is the Columbia River a shipping lane? If so, there's that little ferry in Wahkiakum County that crosses it all the time. I can't believe it's somehow better equipped than the Hiyu or the Rhododendron. (Actually, the rules on the river probably ARE different than in Puget Sound, but I digress.)
Good night.....
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 21, 2007 8:10:42 GMT -8
Now that the whole PT-Keystone route is on hold due to the pulling of the steel electrics, I just had a few random thoughts before I go take a nice nap. In no particular order: Does this line from the article mean the Snohomish will service the route just over the Thanksgiving Weekend, or until further notice? What is the draft on a Pacificat? Of course it is probably too big in other ways for the dock, but who knows? I'll bet any issue with the Jones Act could be dealt with as a "temporary emergency measure" if push came to shove. Does BC Ferries (or anybody else) have something on hand that they could trade to WSF for one WSF's boats on a temporary basis? Too many problems with that too, I suppose. I suppose we now know for sure that the Hiyu can't cross a shipping lane. Or that would have been an option here. Or nobody at WSF has taken 10 minutes to look at the list of available ferries and work it out. Is the Columbia River a shipping lane? If so, there's that little ferry in Wahkiakum County that crosses it all the time. I can't believe it's somehow better equipped than the Hiyu or the Rhododendron. (Actually, the rules on the river probably ARE different than in Puget Sound, but I digress.) Good night..... Let's see, in order: --I would suspect the plan is to get the inspection on the Klickitat completed ASAP, and hopefully have auto service restored by Monday. BC Ferries doesn't have anything available for borrow, as far as I know; I spoke with a higher-up about that some months ago and apparently the only critter BCF has available is a 9-knot boat which puts her in the same class as the Hiyu... getting swept out to sea on the first big ebb tide. I'm honestly not sure about the Hiyu's status regarding shipping lanes. It's never been on a route that has done so, at least not that I know of. But it was my understanding that a temporary Jones Act waiver would've been considered if something had been available. Columbia River... heck, I don't know. |
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Post by EGfleet on Nov 21, 2007 8:13:32 GMT -8
Now that the whole PT-Keystone route is on hold due to the pulling of the steel electrics, I just had a few random thoughts before I go take a nice nap. In no particular order: Does this line from the article mean the Snohomish will service the route just over the Thanksgiving Weekend, or until further notice? What is the draft on a Pacificat? Of course it is probably too big in other ways for the dock, but who knows? I'll bet any issue with the Jones Act could be dealt with as a "temporary emergency measure" if push came to shove. Does BC Ferries (or anybody else) have something on hand that they could trade to WSF for one WSF's boats on a temporary basis? Too many problems with that too, I suppose. I suppose we now know for sure that the Hiyu can't cross a shipping lane. Or that would have been an option here. Or nobody at WSF has taken 10 minutes to look at the list of available ferries and work it out. Is the Columbia River a shipping lane? If so, there's that little ferry in Wahkiakum County that crosses it all the time. I can't believe it's somehow better equipped than the Hiyu or the Rhododendron. (Actually, the rules on the river probably ARE different than in Puget Sound, but I digress.) Good night..... Let's see, in order: --I would suspect the plan is to get the inspection on the Klickitat completed ASAP, and hopefully have auto service restored by Monday. BC Ferries doesn't have anything available for borrow, as far as I know; I spoke with a higher-up about that some months ago and apparently the only critter BCF has available is a 9-knot boat which puts her in the same class as the Hiyu... getting swept out to sea on the first big ebb tide. I'm honestly not sure about the Hiyu's status regarding shipping lanes. It's never been on a route that has done so, at least not that I know of. But it was my understanding that a temporary Jones Act waiver would've been considered if something had been available. Columbia River... heck, I don't know. Um, nope. This is new from the Seattle Times: Ferry line to stop until JanuarySeattle Car-ferry trips from Whidbey Island to Port Townsend will be canceled until January, after state Transportation Secretary Paula Hammond ordered the 80-year-old vessel Klickitat into dry dock for inspections. Steel corrosion, which she described as "pitting" and "pockmarks," was found inside the hollow hull of a similar "Steel Electric" ferry, the Quinault, during dry-dock inspections in Seattle, she said Tuesday. An unused passenger-only ferry will be transferred Thursday to the route, Hammond said. A similar vessel, the Illahee, which travels among the San Juan Islands, will be replaced with a larger boat without disrupting service, Hammond said. |
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 21, 2007 8:27:46 GMT -8
Well, so much for that prediction.
Though I'm going to wait until another source runs it before I take it as gospel... that is an entirely different story than anyone else has picked up. Not to be a skeptic, mind you, but more of an 'are you sure you heard that right?' to the Seattle Times. After all, it's more or less accepted that the Quinault will be out until January sometime.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Nov 21, 2007 8:31:34 GMT -8
I'm honestly not sure about the Hiyu's status regarding shipping lanes. It's never been on a route that has done so, at least not that I know of. She was used on the Fauntleroy-Vashon route during one of the strikes in the 70's. The last time I checked the COI, there was no mention of restrictions, but I'm going to assume there a reason she can't be used on the Pt. Townsend-Keystone route. The Kennedy Class Staten Island ferries are out of the question. One is being used as a training vessel and one is being used as a parts vessel for the training one. Not sure about the other one. |
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 21, 2007 8:34:52 GMT -8
Again, I suspect the ten-knot Hiyu really isn't able to defend herself against the larger currents out yonder.
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Post by hergfest on Nov 21, 2007 13:01:29 GMT -8
Hammond said this morning that the Quinault will tried to be fixed first, and the soonest the route would be back in service would be January. Anyone know what the third boat on Edmonds/Kingston will be? Nothing has shown up on the GPS yet.
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Post by SS San Mateo on Nov 21, 2007 13:14:52 GMT -8
Hammond said this morning that the Quinault will tried to be fixed first, and the soonest the route would be back in service would be January. Anyone know what the third boat on Edmonds/Kingston will be? Nothing has shown up on the GPS yet. The Issaquah isn't at Eagle Harbor until Friday, so I'm guessing the Puyallup unless maintenance is being speeded up on either the Issaquah or Hyak. |
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Post by hergfest on Nov 21, 2007 13:39:20 GMT -8
The Puyallup just showed up on GPS at Kingston, so I guess they are going to run three Jumbos today unless the Walla Walla or Spokane goes down to Bremerton.
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 21, 2007 13:41:30 GMT -8
Using three Jumbos will involve the least amount of vessel movement and therefore the least amount of additional chaos. And I suspect the entropy division has its hands full today.  |
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Post by Emory Lindgard on Nov 27, 2007 9:49:51 GMT -8
Everett Herald article this morning about Nichols Bros proposal of three 64 car Ferries. Interesting, at least one could be built in one year. www.heraldnet.com/article/20071127/NEWS01/711270068It would help Nichols get out of Chapter 11. Emory on South Whidbey |
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Post by Emory Lindgard on Nov 27, 2007 10:31:10 GMT -8
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Post by Barnacle on Nov 27, 2007 21:33:44 GMT -8
[The Hiyu] was used on the Fauntleroy-Vashon route during one of the strikes in the 70's. The last time I checked the COI, there was no mention of restrictions, but I'm going to assume there a reason she can't be used on the Pt. Townsend-Keystone route. Another thing I neglected to point out... I don't know if the Rhody had restrictions about crossing traffic lanes in the 1970s either, but she sure does now. Anyway, I'm not sure if WSF or WSDOT is obligated to help Nichols out of chapter 11, but if it's a side benefit to the project and it is the most feasible plan, let's get on with it. Moreover, let's get on with it NOW... we're at the "Light Rail" point of the crisis. Stop arguing and start building something, right, wrong or indifferent. |
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Post by hergfest on Nov 28, 2007 1:18:28 GMT -8
I am sure the State will find something they need to study before anything is built. How about this, use one of the 50 studies in the past about this and make a decision? Oh wait, this is the State of Washington we are talking about.
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Post by BreannaF on Nov 28, 2007 3:10:45 GMT -8
I am sure the State will find something they need to study before anything is built. How about this, use one of the 50 studies in the past about this and make a decision? Oh wait, this is the State of Washington we are talking about. I would make a comment about something like "Why don't we do a study to see which of the studies we should believe" or something like that. But it would sound too much like a Dilbert comic. So I won't go there. |
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Post by EGfleet on Nov 28, 2007 11:04:20 GMT -8
I am sure the State will find something they need to study before anything is built. How about this, use one of the 50 studies in the past about this and make a decision? Oh wait, this is the State of Washington we are talking about. I would make a comment about something like "Why don't we do a study to see which of the studies we should believe" or something like that. But it would sound too much like a Dilbert comic. So I won't go there. Fortunately there has been some positive comments from the legislature on that very issue:
State Rep. Lynn Kessler, D-Hoquiam, said even if repairs are possible, there is no doubt the Steel Electrics must be replaced -- and fast.
"These are 80-year-old boats, for goodness' sakes," she said.
State Rep. Barbara Bailey, R-Oak Harbor, said the need for a speedy solution is apparent.
"The last thing in the world I want to see is another year of study," she said.Let's hope they stick to that. |
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