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Post by Scott (Former Account) on Feb 13, 2011 13:44:58 GMT -8
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Mirrlees
Voyager
Bathtub!
Deck Engineer- Queen of Richmond
Posts: 1,013
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Post by Mirrlees on Feb 13, 2011 18:05:55 GMT -8
[/size][/quote] [/quote] The problem is not mechanical, she has a major sewage back-up.
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Post by ferryfanyvr on Feb 14, 2011 11:56:48 GMT -8
Posted Monday, February 14, 2011 Print Version Note: This Service Notice applies to the following route(s): - Vancouver (Tsawwassen) - Victoria (Swartz Bay)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updated as of 11:15 am:
Please be advised that due to severe weather conditions the following sailings between Swartz Bay and Tsawwassen have been cancelled:
11:00 am departing Swartz Bay
12:00 pm departing Swartz Bay
1:00 pm departing Swartz Bay
11:00 am departing Tsawwassen
1:00 pm departing Tsawwassen
2:00 pm departing Tsawwassen
Reservations fees for these cancelled sailings will be refunded.
It is expected that service will resume with the 3:00 pm departure from Swartz Bay and Tsawwassen however these departures will remain weather dependent.
Currently there is no service disruption on our Departure Bay – Horseshoe Bay and Tsawwassen – Duke Point routes.
BC Ferries continues to monitor the weather. This service notice will be updated at 2:00 pm today.
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Post by Nickfro on Feb 14, 2011 11:57:41 GMT -8
Mother nature has decided to impact ferry services this morning. . .
Route 1 has cancelled 3 round trips, starting with the 11am sailings (as posted above).
The Queen of Burnaby and Tenaka have also suspended service on their respective routes.
Route 30 seems to be still chugging along. I'm confused as to why they are still able to run and Route 1 isn't, because I thought docking at Tsawwassen is the real reason for cancelled sailings.
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Post by Retrovision on Feb 14, 2011 12:42:18 GMT -8
Route 30 seems to be still chugging along. I'm confused as to why they are still able to run and Route 1 isn't, because I thought docking at Tsawwassen is the real reason for cancelled sailings. Could someone please give us some insight as to what possible logical reasoning could prevent the CC from running while her sister the CI is kept in service while travelling presumably a longer stretch of relatively open water by comparison, except for possible company policy of keeping 30 open over 1? Maybe the northern approach to Active Pass poses more of a threat in adverse weather conditions than docking at Tsawwassen does?
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Post by lmtengs on Feb 14, 2011 13:30:02 GMT -8
Might it have something to do with currents in active pass?
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bargain
Oiler (New Member)
Posts: 44
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Post by bargain on Feb 14, 2011 14:26:10 GMT -8
Is it just me or does BC Ferries seem to cancel ferries due to inclement weather with a much great frequency these days? New policies perhaps? Are there any figures available to show an increase in weather cancellations over the past 10 to 20 years? Maybe I just didn't pay attention to cancellations 5 or 10 years ago - Entirely likely.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 14, 2011 14:33:24 GMT -8
Is it just me or does BC Ferries seem to cancel ferries due to inclement weather with a much great frequency these days? New policies perhaps? I suspect that policies have changed because of 2 incidents: 1) NorAd trip across Hecate Strait in autumn 2009. 2) Queen of Chilliwack holding near Texada Island in autumn 2010.
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Post by Retrovision on Feb 14, 2011 15:24:46 GMT -8
Is it just me or does BC Ferries seem to cancel ferries due to inclement weather with a much great frequency these days? New policies perhaps? Are there any figures available to show an increase in weather cancellations over the past 10 to 20 years? Maybe I just didn't pay attention to cancellations 5 or 10 years ago - Entirely likely. I am confident in the ammount of attention that I've paid over recent years enough to say that it does seem to be a growing trend, cancellations in "adverse" weather, and I can't disagree with your question, bargain. Is it just me or does BC Ferries seem to cancel ferries due to inclement weather with a much great frequency these days? New policies perhaps? I suspect that policies have changed because of 2 incidents: 1) NorAd trip across Hecate Strait in autumn 2009. 2) Queen of Chilliwack holding near Texada Island in autumn 2010. I guess I wonder, given your paraphrased statement Mr. Horn, how BCFS policy in the southern Strait of Georgia - within a separate weather forecast area according to GC's Weather Office, particularly their marine forecast - could be treated similarly, specifically treated similarly by the regulatory body that that regulates our ferry system, when the fact remains that wind conditions are documented to be of quite a different nature, especially when compared to Hecate Strait. If this happens to be the case, I pose the rhetorical question: Could you please give any true relation between B.C.'s northern and protected southern coasts when documentation emphatically considers them two very distinct ball games? Again, no offence, I just have questions about the logic of such possible policies.
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Post by WettCoast on Feb 14, 2011 18:27:47 GMT -8
According to the Environment Canada Weather Service the winds that have been hammering* the south coast have been out of the south east. That should mean that Tsawwassen Terminal is not getting hit quite like it does with a south-wester. My guess is the cancellations are due to difficulty in manoeuvring at the north east entrance to Active Pass. I note also that all 3 classes of ferries currently serving Route 1 are affected.
It would be nice if BCFS was to provide the rationale for cancellations on Route 1 only.
*Speaking of hammering we have had another 90 cm of snow here over the last day. The piles are getting too high to heave yet more slush up there. See my current sig.
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Post by uricanejack on Feb 14, 2011 20:55:26 GMT -8
The weather and sea conditions which can be experienced in the North and the South and the likely hood of encountering severe wind and sea conditions are very different.
The ships operating in theses area are very different.
The Northern Vessels are built for offshore sea conditions and were at least Home trade 2.. The Queen The North was built for the North Sea. The Northern Adventure was built for the Mediterranean.
The ships operating in the southern area are built for Near Coastal conditions Old Home Trade 3
So if you want to compare Apples to Oranges knock yourself out. The decisions to sail or not sail would be quite different.
Most of the Minor and Intermediate Vessels operate in Home trade 4 or smooth or partially smooth waters.
For all Ferries a major consideration is the wind strength and docking. Its more than just wind strength the direction is very important a cross wind at an exposed dock like Tsawwassen is much more of a problem than a head wind. From the NE Tsawwassen gets sheltered by the Bluffs at Tsawassen. From the NW SE its much more exposed.
Some Vessels are much more manoeuvrable than others with bigger more powerful bow thrusters and or rudders at both ends.
RAD Vessels have little problem docking in strong wind. But if the dock is exposed to a significant sea state they may not be able to un load due to much movement of the ramp. Sturdies Bay is often a problem particularly in a NE wind.
In the past the old raised V Class had a maximum wind strength of 38 knots. There is no limit for the New west or Spirit Class or Coastal Class. The C Class have no wind limit but have tendency to bend and twist causing amidships windows to shatter. You will see Perspex sheets inside some amidships windows.
The older southern vessel bow doors are in most cases not weather tight. The Newer spirit and coastal class are weather tight but are still not Visors and not intended to hit large waves.
In recent years there have been incidents of vessel and dock damage due to bad weather and of ship damage due to sea state. In addition a couple of highly publicised incidents with the northern adventure and Chilliwack.
The decision to sail or not is up to the Master. And as a result is subjective. The company has been developing clearer guidelines on conditions which trigger a cancellation of a sailing. In order to improve safety by reducing incidents and by avoiding situations where passenger comfort is compromised.
By putting in clear guidelines the company reduces the likely hood of “ Capt Fantastic” from taking to much of a risk.
There are many variables in deciding to cancel a sailing or not. But a simple one I have heard is when The Capt thinks “ It will probably bet ok” “ it is probably best not to try“.
In the end every one wants to get there safely. Even if no one is injured. A ship or dock could be out of service for days or even longer at huge cost if it goes wrong.
Many sailings cancelled tonight equals no injuries, no damage and no cancelled sailings tommorow.
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bargain
Oiler (New Member)
Posts: 44
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Post by bargain on Feb 15, 2011 10:56:41 GMT -8
The idea of having sailings canceled for "my comfort" quite honestly enrages me. We're all adults - If the sailing may be uncomfortable then advise potential passengers of the possibility and carry on.
The only justifiable reason to cancel is a clear,present and serious safety concern or of course serious risk to equipment/berthing facilities which could of course precipitate additional sailing cancellations.
Perhaps a Freedom of Information request on BC Ferries cancellation policies is in order. With the build quality and design of today's vessels, and the addition of enhanced life safety and navigation systems I find it odd sailing cancellations are on the increase.
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,150
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Post by Neil on Feb 15, 2011 12:50:14 GMT -8
The idea of having sailings canceled for "my comfort" quite honestly enrages me. We're all adults - If the sailing may be uncomfortable then advise potential passengers of the possibility and carry on. The only justifiable reason to cancel is a clear,present and serious safety concern or of course serious risk to equipment/berthing facilities which could of course precipitate additional sailing cancellations. Perhaps a Freedom of Information request on BC Ferries cancellation policies is in order. With the build quality and design of today's vessels, and the addition of enhanced life safety and navigation systems I find it odd sailing cancellations are on the increase. You've got to be kidding. You're 'enraged' at sailing cancellations, and you think another FOI demand is in order? Sitting in front of my computer in the comfort of my own home, I don't feel well enough informed to pass judgement on the weather or sea conditions that caused BC Ferries to cancel sailings out of concern for the safety of navigation, or the comfort of passengers. I defer to the discretion of the captain or others who knew the conditions.
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Ferryman
Voyager
Posts: 7,473
Member is Online
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Post by Ferryman on Feb 15, 2011 14:53:02 GMT -8
You know, it's a pretty serious risk taking a ferry into rough weather. The hulls are formed in a way that they aren't the best sea riders. Very little freeboard, and protruding rubbing strakes make a pretty bumpy ride. I've been on the Ferries in some fairly extreme conditions for this area, and it's not entirely the greatest time to be aboard. The outer decks are closed off, the cafeteria is closed, car deck is off limits, forward lounge is roped off. Then when you get to the other side it turns out the ship can't properly dock. I remember a sailing on the Queen of Vancouver on December 30th, 2008 where it took 90 minutes just to get into the dock. The winds were from the North West and she kept on being pushed towards the breakwater, but was eventually pushed up broadside against the end dolphins of Berth 4/5 and 3/4. I witnessed a similar situation this past fall on the Queen of Burnaby at Otter Bay, Pender Island. She was pushed nearly broadside against the berth, completely moving the floating leads out of place. I think I rather stay on the beach in these cases. In other news: Say good bye to the carpets on the Howe Sound Queen www.bcferries.com/bcfservicenotice?id=368712
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Post by uricanejack on Feb 15, 2011 15:01:50 GMT -8
Perhaps I should not have referred to passenger comfort.
“Passenger comfort” is a term straight from the Media consultant and the Marketing Manager.
More accurately I should have used “passenger safety“.
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Post by Mike on Feb 15, 2011 15:16:23 GMT -8
You know, it's a pretty serious risk taking a ferry into rough weather. The hulls are formed in a way that they aren't the best sea riders. Very little freeboard, and protruding rubbing strakes make a pretty bumpy ride. I've been on the Ferries in some fairly extreme conditions for this area, and it's not entirely the greatest time to be aboard. The outer decks are closed off, the cafeteria is closed, car deck is off limits, forward lounge is roped off. Then when you get to the other side it turns out the ship can't properly dock. I remember a sailing on the Queen of Vancouver on December 30th, 2008 where it took 90 minutes just to get into the dock. The winds were from the North West and she kept on being pushed towards the breakwater, but was eventually pushed up broadside against the end dolphins of Berth 4/5 and 3/4. I witnessed a similar situation this past fall on the Queen of Burnaby at Otter Bay, Pender Island. She was pushed nearly broadside against the berth, completely moving the floating leads out of place. I think I rather stay on the beach in these cases. Having been on the Queen of Cowichan heading back to the mainland in November 2009 during a wind storm, I can attest to it being a very bumpy ride.
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Post by lmtengs on Feb 15, 2011 15:17:05 GMT -8
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mrdot
Voyager
Mr. DOT
Posts: 1,252
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Post by mrdot on Feb 15, 2011 17:52:06 GMT -8
:)on the subject of taking ferries out in rough weather, one has to consider how these original spaulding designs, from the inception of the Coho's 1959 sailing and the subsequent opening of the very exposed tsawwassen and the original Sidney & Tsawwassen designs also featured a much less exposed signature to windward resistance, so these originals, before their much expanded design changes were very much more suitable for the rough going on the Straits and when new had more engine power in reserve! I think their have been cancellations on both straits, but when young these vessels faired much better in the rough going, and old time skippers took more chances! :)mrdot.
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Post by Blisswood on Feb 15, 2011 19:14:12 GMT -8
It appears the Coastsaver deal coincides with the Spirits and CC being in service, which happens to be when the New Westminster isn't.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2011 19:57:04 GMT -8
From what i hear, the Howe Sound Queen may not be saying goodbye to it's carpets - they have just washed them - rinsing the sewage into the underlay. and while foot passengers now have to stand on the car deck in the wind and rain - (and we are forecast snow) the fare prices remain the same. there isn't any area sectioned off for foot passengers on the deck, so passengers including dozens of school kids now just get to mill around looking for a spot out of the wind. - hopefully drivers will be applying their park brakes so that nobody gets crushed.
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Post by gordon on Feb 15, 2011 21:11:11 GMT -8
Could the reason for the Route#1 cancellations have been a combination of high winds & currents at the entrances to the Active pass?
The cancellation policy for the Pr Haida Gwai route seems more conservative that need be. the NA may not have the best Sea keeping abilities but 12 foot seas should still not be that much of a problem as far as passenger comfort goes.
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Post by lmtengs on Feb 15, 2011 21:50:27 GMT -8
Could the reason for the Route#1 cancellations have been a combination of high winds & currents at the entrances to the Active pass? As I already asked last night? ;D
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Post by Low Light Mike on Feb 15, 2011 21:58:01 GMT -8
there isn't any area sectioned off for foot passengers on the deck, so passengers including dozens of school kids now just get to mill around looking for a spot out of the wind. - hopefully drivers will be applying their park brakes so that nobody gets crushed. There is a small lounge (seats 10 people, maybe?) on the car deck, on the Crofton-end of the ship. And there is a passenger walkway area on the car-deck that is painted yellow, where no vehicles are parked. You can see some of this in the various ship photos in this thread: ferriesbc.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=intermediate&action=display&thread=7354
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Post by uricanejack on Feb 15, 2011 23:45:29 GMT -8
Wind against current in or near active pass can make seas shorter steepercloser together and a bit bigerr all in all not nice in a small vessel. not a major factor in determining cancelaation of R1
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bargain
Oiler (New Member)
Posts: 44
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Post by bargain on Feb 16, 2011 7:39:22 GMT -8
Perhaps I should not have referred to passenger comfort. “Passenger comfort” is a term straight from the Media consultant and the Marketing Manager. More accurately I should have used “passenger safety“. I have no qualms with cancellations for safety as was outlined in my post. It's this "passenger comfort" term or concept as it where that I find unacceptable. BC Ferries needs to be more straight up about why there are cancellations and drop the marketing terms. So far no one has put forward an explanation for the growth in cancellations and this increased aversion to risk at BC Ferries. I guess we'll consider this issue closed for now, perhaps subject to a separate thread in the future.
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