Quatchi
Voyager
Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
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Post by Quatchi on Dec 14, 2010 10:40:05 GMT -8
Omitted,
There has been discussion about the mermaid pods (azipods), I recall reading somewhere that BCF though maintenance would be higher than RADs, so hasn’t used them yet. I don’t recall if that was hearsay or actual documents though, so don’t quote me. The Capilano/Cumberland have diesel electric RADs, you’d think that would be a prime opportunity to use Azipods. To me eliminating the gears and other complexities for RADs would be a great decrease in maintenance. It does although mean the actual propulsion motors and the CPP systems are completely inaccessible while the ship is in the water.
I don’t recall Voiths ever coming up in discussion about BCF. I don’t know how long they would last on the coast with all the logs floating around. They aren’t the most log resistant system ever, and if you put a cage over the blades they will loose efficiency greatly. The DEV Shelter Bay on the Upper Arrow Lake has a diesel electric Voith setup, seems to work good for her, but again, not as many obstructions up there. I don’t think BCF really needs that level of maneuverability anyways.
Cheers,
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Post by stvfishy on Dec 14, 2010 13:51:02 GMT -8
I don’t know how long they would last on the coast with all the logs floating around. They aren’t the most log resistant system ever, and if you put a cage over the blades they will loose efficiency greatly. The DEV Shelter Bay on the Upper Arrow Lake has a diesel electric Voith setup, seems to work good for her, but again, not as many obstructions up there. Not many logs on the Upper Arrow Lake run My experience and talking to others has been the exact opposite on that run. TING! BANG! CRASH! every couple minutes. That was my first time on a ferry as a kid - "WHAT's THAT?" - very scary I've had the same experience since and that's the first thing others comment on when going to the Slocan valley. Google Earth shows many log booms on that stretch of the Columbia waterway - some must break free. I must only go in LOG season.
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Quatchi
Voyager
Engineering Officer - CCG
Posts: 930
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Post by Quatchi on Dec 14, 2010 14:58:51 GMT -8
I must have gone in Non-log season when I was up there. lake was glass, not an obstruction to be seen. Maybe logs aren't a problem for Voiths then or maybe because its freshwater and logs float better in it, they aren't worried. I'm curious now to know if they have ever had problems with the Shelter Bay and logs.
Cheers,
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Post by uricanejack on Dec 21, 2010 1:02:51 GMT -8
I have heard there is no such thing as a stupid question just stupid answer’s. The answer to is question is a bit confusing. The double enders are almost symmetrical but have only one bow, stern, port and starboard side.
You can tell which is which by a few clues. Boats and rafts on the starboard side are all ways odd numbered while the port side is even numbered. The anchor and bell are on the fwd end though some ships such as the Queen of Cumberland has two anchors 1 at each end. It only has one bell. The ensign is always flown at the aft end of the vessel or on the aft of the main mast. This is not easily seen if the main mast is central. The Name of a ship is written to be read left to right. So it starts at the fwd end on the port side and the after end of the starboard side. Chinese or Japanese ships may be different.. Emblems appear correct from forward on the port side. And are correct from the stern on the starboard side.
Usually the “No 1” end is the Bow and is usually the inshore end when the ship ties up at night at its home port.
There is provision in the international regulations for prevention of collision. For power driven vessels which operate in astern for extended periods of time to display the Navigation lights. Masthead, side and stern lights as for a power driven vessel as if heading in the direction indicated. This is to avoid confusion.
So for BC Ferries which are double ended they have one bow and stern for layout of the ship and emergency equipment. They while on the return trip having not turned around operate astern for an extended period and display lights and characteristics for a vessel heading in that direction and comply with coll regs as if the stern was in fact the bow.
For many of the crew it makes no difference for the deck crew it does for some it can be confusing when new.
All of the Major vessel double enders have two separate bridges and the master and Officer of the watch move from one to the other to head the other way. The Master Leaves the OOW in charge of the ship while the vessel is pushing into the dock and goes to the offshore bridge. After clearance to sail the Master Transfers control from one bridge to the other but both the Master and OOW must Transfers the control simultaneously. The Navigation lights switch at the same time. Most if not all the intermediate ships have one bridge with two separate operating consoles. The Master can transfer control from one consol to the other after he is clear to sail. Some of the smaller ships have just one central console and the Master just walks round the consol and operates the controls in the opposite direction.
If you are on a double ender you can always have fun trying to figure it out.
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Post by Ferryman on Dec 21, 2010 11:19:50 GMT -8
From my experience with working on Double enders, I must say that pretty much everything has been covered.
On the Skeena Queen for the departure out of Fulford, some Masters will operate the ship from the stern end console to keep an eye on the stern while they make the wide turn out of the berth. Meanwhile, the Quartermaster will be keeping a lookout over the bow. As soon as the ship is straightened up, the Master will push the control tranfer buttons to the forward facing console, and the Quartermaster will take control while the Master walks around to the forward Console. Also, on the Skeena Queen, the Navigation lights automatically switch direction as soon as the control has switched ends. Also believe it or not, despite being a double ender, both consoles have just slightly different handling. You can sort of notice it while steering the RAD's. I've always thought she steers better when the #1 end is the bow.
On the Howe Sound Queen, the #1 end bow has the ability to lock its rudder. This was a small icebreaking capability she had for crossing the icey St. Lawrence (No, this doesn't mean she's an eyebreaking ship). The forward end propellar is always feathered while underway as well. It still freewheels pretty good, because the aft propellar will be pushing at around 320 RPM, while the forward propellar is still freewheeling at around 240 RPM. The Navigational lights have to be manually switched though upon departure.
On both the Skeena and the Howe Sound Queen, they both have the anchor/windlass on the number 1 end (Salt Spring end).
Boat and Raft Stations are also numbered relative to the number 1 end being the bow. 1 and 3 for starboard side, and 2 and 4 for Port side. There's a design flaw with where the Rescue Boats are positioned though. The Rescue Boats are kitty cornered to each other on the port side. The Rescue Boat on the #1 end is listed as the #2 Rescue Boat, while the boat on the #2 end is actually the #3 Rescue Boat. This implies that there are three rescue boats aboard, but there is actually just two.
Another way of telling the bow from the stern on the Skeena Queen is having a look at the funnel. Starboard side is Stackside.
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Post by Name Omitted on Dec 21, 2010 16:54:22 GMT -8
So keeping with this information, if a vessel were to snag a rock, would repair work be based of frame numbers from the #1 bow than? Further, if the master wanted to mark in the log a sound from one portion of the craft, would he use only the #1 bow as the reference point, or would he use current direction?
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Post by uricanejack on Dec 21, 2010 19:14:56 GMT -8
The short answer is yes. Ships frames are generally numbered from aft forward. If damaged the damage would be identified refereeing to the ships original drawings which have one bow and one stern. One set of frame numbers and each compartment, double bottom, tank, void space , fore peak aft peak. named and identified with a unique name and no.
Having said all this it can still be pretty hard to find your car on a C Class
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Post by lmtengs on Jan 16, 2011 11:01:32 GMT -8
Maybe, just for the sake of professionalism, we should have the word 'stupid' removed from the title of this thread?
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Post by Name Omitted on Jan 16, 2011 15:03:39 GMT -8
As you wish.
And thank you, everyone, for so much information.
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Post by o2e on Apr 10, 2011 21:25:44 GMT -8
On a number of BC Ferries there are three generators. One for emergency. Do these generators have their own fuel source. Or does just the emergency one have its own source. If they do consume diesel, is there a way to find out how much during the runs and how much at night when docked?
The reason I ask is that I have been working on engergy saving projects for remote generators and am curious if the same could be applied to a ships generator.
I have been told that cruise ships consume the same amount of fuel regardless of how many generators are running so BC Ferries generators would act the same. This does not make sense to me .. so I am asking the experts .. you.
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Post by uricanejack on Apr 11, 2011 1:11:43 GMT -8
The no of generators on a ferry varies. Some of the small ones have only 2. Most but not all have emergency generators. Some of the smaller ships do not have emergency generators having emergency power provided by battery and diesel powered emergency fire and bilge pumps. All of those vessels are restricted to home trade domestic only voyages.
Where a ship has an emergency generator they are required to be in a separate space from the engine room and have automatic and manual start and separate fuel supply for 24. And supply power to all systems required for emergency and designated as emergency e.g. emergency fire and bilge pump deluge sprinkler pump steering gear. radios radar PA. It has to be separate in case of engine room flooding or fire.
The emergency generators are not run except for weekly test. They are often tested while ships are tied up for the night but are not supplying power.
Most if not all the ferries shut down their generators and switch over to shore power at night. Deep Sea ships cargo tanker or cruise ship run their own generators all the time.
The no of service generators per ship varies. From at least 2 up to 4 while under way usually 2 will be in operation except on some of the minor vessels.
For deep sea ships it depends where they are. Close to port they will be on “Stand by” requiring 2 running and 3rd on “stand by“. Offshore they run at full sea speed with main engine waste heat supping steam to a turbo alternator. With no generators running. When they reduce to manoeuvring speed there is not enough steam for turbo alternator so diesel generator is required.
This type of system is not suitable for a ferry due frequent manoeuvring.
The Spirit Class have shaft generators which take power from the main engines to provide the electrical power for the ship. They also have diesel generators for extra power and as back up.
To run shaft generators this requires constant speed engines. They are very efficient at ships service speed. But when running slow are very inefficient.
The Costal Class and The Cumberland, Capilano are diesel electric and all the engines are generators providing power to electric motors
Most modern cruise ships are also diesel electric. The no of generators required in port is less than at sea and at full speed. Each generator must run at a constant speed to provide stable power. The fuel consumption does increase with load. Similar to fuel consumption in car increases going up hill even though speed might stay the same..
Back to your original question. The emergency generator has its own fuel supply and runs on regular diesel. On a BC Ferry only high grade diesel is used some of it is Bio Diesel nowadays, which means the generators run the same fuel from the same tanks as the main engines. But through a seperate fuel system seperat lines, pumps, filters, some may have seperate day tanks.
On deep sea ships and some cruse ships the main engines run on heavy or blended fuels. The generators are usualy run on diesel and this means a seperate system.
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Post by Low Light Mike on Nov 29, 2012 14:22:33 GMT -8
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Post by oceaneer77 on Dec 16, 2012 7:07:58 GMT -8
Rim Drive Thrusters. I found a press release some where on a ferry using the rim drive thrusters as main propulsion. www.voith.com/en/products-services/power-transmission/voith-inline-thruster-voith-inline-propeller-11014.htmlAbove is the product but i cannot find the press release. I have done allot with this as a bow thruster and it is very very good in that application. But as main propulsion i do not have any efficiency ideas on how good it would be. I do know its extremely quiet, and the electronics are all encased and waterproof due to the design. ( this is where ABB azipods are having trouble, but they have fixed the problems.. will see) Any way it a very interesting idea and may be a good alternative to RADS. oceaneer
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