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Post by WettCoast on Sept 18, 2011 16:11:08 GMT -8
It is my impression that BCFS does not do nearly as good a job of packing cars in on car decks as used to be the norm in the past.
On busy summer and weekend/holiday sailings deckhands would ensure that gaps between your car and the one ahead were no more than one foot (30 cm). Today, it seems they are not really all that concerned and often the gaps between cars seem big enough to fit in a 'Smart Car'.
It may be that they don't have as many crew involved with car deck packing as was once the case, and accept the fact that this results in a vehicle capacity reduction.
I see this also reflected in the decision not to keep the hoistable ramps 'in service' on the Spirit vessels, or to install such on the Coastals. Such decisions leave them with less flexibility when they are faced with high demand and one ship breaks down. They are unable to get as much capacity out of the remaining vessels as they ought to be able to.
I invite others to tell me I am wrong about this. I especially am interested in feedback from others who rode the ferries back in pre-historic times (< the year 2000), and from our USA forum members and their experience with WSF & AMHS.
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Post by Political Incorrectness on Sept 18, 2011 16:24:45 GMT -8
Anytime I have been on a BCFS ship, I usually notice that the vehicle space isn't used to its full capacity. I believe with WSF boats, we have 3-5 people loading the vessel. One at the front, two others at the sides to direct vehicles to the tunnels or to guide larger vehicles to the lanes. I feel that ensures packing every nook and crany. On the BCFS boats, it seems as if vehicle drivers get to determine their spacing. They say to park within 2 feet, some people leave a half car of room. That can easily add up, especially during peak periods.
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 18, 2011 17:01:54 GMT -8
It also depends on the route. In the San Juans, I have noticed deckhands are much more proactive about pulling cars up tight and squeezing out every last little bit of space on the car deck. On some of the cross-sound routes, like Seattle-Bainbridge, I see less of this happening. Usually, you do not have deckhands inching you forward to get you tight to the car in front of you, and as a result, there are sometimes large gaps between vehicles. Some of this might be because the frequency of sailings is higher than in the San Juans; thus, the crews may not be as fastidious about cramming cars on to get the maximum load they can, and part of it may also be the dwell time, which is shorter than what you see in Anacortes and the San Juans. The cross-sound routes tend to be more about speed of service - get 'em in and out quickly. These are just my observations as a casual rider and frequent commuter. Take it for what it is worth.
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Post by ferryfanyvr on Sept 18, 2011 19:12:45 GMT -8
I, too, have noticed that the cars don't seem as "packed in" during busy times as they did back in the 80's when such things started mattering to me. I am mainly commenting on the loads on route 2, my most-travelled route.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2011 19:21:56 GMT -8
It is all about on time performance, the company doesn't want any delays. The attitude is the people can catch the next sailing there is no time to wait.
Keep in mind on a busy sailing a ship can max out on passenger count before car count.
There is also safety regulations now the deckhands can't be in confined spaces directing vehicals like on the gallery decks or under the gallery decks. On the upper cardeck is the same, there must be a clear path of escape.
Nobody pays attention to what they are doing you can have the brightest reflective gear on even could have flashing lights and still people don't pay attention.
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Post by Mike on Sept 18, 2011 19:29:51 GMT -8
At Langdale, I remember they used to really cram the cars in at the end of a long weekend. I think they still do a pretty good job, based on what I saw this summer. I do miss how they would get really behind schedule and would have to go at the Queen of Surrey's maximum speed to make up time. ;D
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 18, 2011 19:41:18 GMT -8
At Langdale, I remember they used to really cram the cars in at the end of a long weekend. I think they still do a pretty good job, based on what I saw this summer. I do miss how they would get really behind schedule and would have to go at the Queen of Surrey's maximum speed to make up time. ;D I was traveling Route 3 (Langdale to HSB) on Victoria Day a couple of years ago, and as I recall, they used every bit of space they could to cram cars in. I had a reservation so our lane was one of the first on, but still, it appears they did a good job. One thing I forgot to mention in my previous post is the amount of space that has to be left open these days for evacuation slides and hatches to the below deck spaces, things that did not exist, or regulations that were not in place in the old days. The previous post reminded me of that, and I know on WSF vessels, some of the empty spaces are on purpose for those reasons. I do have a photo showing the cramming of vehicles on MV Chelan, as it was departing Orcas for Anacortes on a trip I did to the island a couple of years ago. This is a nice example of the creative way they squeeze cars on:
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Neil
Voyager
Posts: 7,171
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Post by Neil on Sept 19, 2011 18:47:57 GMT -8
I agree with Wett Coast; the 'stow' has changed over the years. I always take a turn on the car deck, and on a busy Sunday on routes 2 or 30 when there is a minimum of commercial traffic, I wouldn't be surprised if room for an additional twenty cars is wasted. Last time I took the Coho, I noticed they didn't waste an inch. I guess crew is utilized differently there.
Like all long time frequent travellers, I've spent time in terminals after being the first, second, or tenth vehicle left behind from a 'full' sailing. It's irritating when you know that there actually was space available.
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Kam
Voyager
Posts: 926
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Post by Kam on Sept 19, 2011 20:16:38 GMT -8
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Post by Name Omitted on Sept 19, 2011 20:30:11 GMT -8
I've seen the AMHS car decks so full that people literally had to parallel park the final car on/off the car deck. Of course, there is more incentive to get people on the vessel when the next one does not come by for a few days…
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Post by Ferryman on Sept 20, 2011 8:31:27 GMT -8
I'd say there's a variety of factors for this.
On Route 9, the Deckhands are almost always pulling everybody up not only to cram as much as possible, but to also keep all options open in case there's some unexpected surge in traffic which does occur as the ship travels along the run.
On Route 4 and 6, the cars are crammed as well when full loads are expected.
On the Major routes it's hard to really say what goes on there. I'd probably have to agree with Jervis and that it would be more of a "get as many on as quickly as possible so we can get out of here" type of attitude. Also a valid point that another sailing, especially on Route 1 is 45 mins away from arriving. This could also be due to the fact that Captains are no longer running these ships. Aside from the minor vessels, they're all Managers now I believe.
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Post by WettCoast on Sept 20, 2011 20:49:03 GMT -8
Is BCFS putting too much emphasis on 'on time' departures at the expense of leaving people and there vehicles waiting an hour or two? In my books when things are busy I don't have a huge problem with them running behind schedule if this is the result of them cramming in everything possible on the car decks, including full utilization of available ramps.
I would rather a 30 minute delay then a two hour delay!
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Post by glasseye on Sept 21, 2011 0:55:53 GMT -8
I would rather a 30 minute delay then a two hour delay! It's not that simple. Waiting 30 minutes to maximize capacity on one capacity sailing is not catastrophic, but delaying 30 minutes to maximize capacity on every sailing during busy days would have extensive knock-on effects. Sailings would bunch up, crew relief would be delayed (meaning extra overtime) and final sailings would run late. All of these problems cause disruption, cost money, or reduce route capacity. Deciding how long to spend packing cars onto the car deck or whether to lower the platform decks in a way that maximizes revenue is a matter of fairly complex multivariate calculus. BCFS being as profit motivated as it is, you can be sure they've run the numbers and decided that spending 5 more minutes loading the decks to the brim isn't cost effective. To an extremely crude estimate, it would only be cost effective for BCFS to delay a Spirit for one minute if they could get four extra cars on board as a result. Two minutes is only cost effective if that meant loading nine more cars.
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Post by lmtengs on Sept 21, 2011 5:36:18 GMT -8
I think it's fairly simple, BCF just doesn't see it: notice these pictures from Norway: See how while the lower vehicle deck is still unloading, they've already got the main vehicle deck loading? This must save ten minutes of valuable sailing time. Why BCF doesn't do it, I don't know. They could have one lane offloading and one lane onloading for a period of time when part of the car deck is already empty enough to fill up again.
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 21, 2011 8:13:32 GMT -8
I think it's fairly simple, BCF just doesn't see it: notice these pictures from Norway: See how while the lower vehicle deck is still unloading, they've already got the main vehicle deck loading? This must save ten minutes of valuable sailing time. Why BCF doesn't do it, I don't know. They could have one lane offloading and one lane onloading for a period of time when part of the car deck is already empty enough to fill up again. Great look at some of Norway's ferries. Thanks for sharing. This design looks to be similar to one BC Ferries had expressed interest in recently. I know they did not buy that particular ferry but it seems like this template might be a good fit to eventually replace Queens of Burnaby and Nanaimo, obviously with modifications to fit our docks.
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Post by Ferryman on Sept 21, 2011 9:54:25 GMT -8
I think it's fairly simple, BCF just doesn't see it: Well actually, for security reasons there has to be a sweep of all the decks to make sure there are no stow aways before the next load comes on. Also, more times than not, I see Route 1 discharging the lower car deck while the upper car deck is beggining to board, and vice versa. glasseye has the right idea with costs. Also, the complaints grow when the ship sails late, especially when it greatly effects the remainder of the sailings. Passengers aren't so forgiving a lot of the time, and give a blank stare when you explain the reasons. The majority of them also don't appreciate being told how and where to park, and how close they need to be pulled up. Everyone wants priority loading to be first on, first off, with loads of room all around their vehicle. I'm a Deckhand on these ferries, directing cars on and off almost everyday.
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Post by Kahloke on Sept 21, 2011 10:58:06 GMT -8
I think it's fairly simple, BCF just doesn't see it: Well actually, for security reasons there has to be a sweep of all the decks to make sure there are no stow aways before the next load comes on. Quite true. I remember a time before all the security measures were instituted (i.e. pre 9/11) when walk-ons were allowed to board even while vehicle traffic below was still unloading. Of course, I am referring to WSF here, and on the routes where there are overhead walkways for foot passengers, like Seattle. After 9/11, that came to an end. All passengers and vehicles must be unloaded before they will re-load the vessel, with a security sweep in between.
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Post by alaskanmohican on Sept 21, 2011 21:21:33 GMT -8
It's interesting seeing the different loading techniques, as has already been mentioned, AMHS will try to safely pack the decks when necesarry. A few things about the blue canoes, some ships will let walk-ons board early sometimes, even right after the ship is in and ramp is down but before any cars disembark. But our ships tend to run a circuit route where there are always some passengers onboard, so we don't have the same security sweep requirements before boarding WSF has. Some may find it interesting too that a ship is not considered late at AMHS unless it is 30 minutes behind schedule. When you only have one departure a day, "on-time" is relative.
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Post by Ferryman on Sept 29, 2011 22:03:59 GMT -8
"Stacked" conditions aboard the Skeena Queen this morning for the 09:50 sailing from Fulford Harbour. There are 97 Under Heights, 2 Over Heights, and 2 Commercials. Room for another 4 or 5 Under Heights right at the stern thanks to vigilant Deckhands to pulling everybody up.
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Post by LeafsFan on Sept 30, 2011 16:52:33 GMT -8
well mr. ferryman, that looks to be packing worthy of a commendation, if I may say so. If you were a part of this, I just want to say good job.
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Post by Scott on Sept 30, 2011 17:22:31 GMT -8
This photo is almost 10 years old, but is a good example of stacking the decks. I remember a similar situation around the same time where I was driving my dad's 12 passenger van from Hornby Island and we were in about the same spot as that bus. They had to pull ahead a little before they could fully raise the ramp.
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Post by Ferryman on Sept 30, 2011 17:33:18 GMT -8
well mr. ferryman, that looks to be packing worthy of a commendation, if I may say so. If you were a part of this, I just want to say good job. Smart@$$! IF that were the case, then I'd pass the commendation to you as well.
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KE7JFF
Chief Steward
Posts: 106
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Post by KE7JFF on Oct 1, 2011 11:32:10 GMT -8
I want to say on WSF, there is something in the regulations that vehicle spacing is at the discretion of the crew but I could be wrong.
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Post by markkarj on Jun 26, 2021 17:20:15 GMT -8
From the stupid question department- is there any sort of "handbook" or procedure manual on how vehicles are loaded on a ship?
I'd like to know: 1) Aside from loading vehicles by height, is there any means to load by weight as well;
2) How finicky are ships in loading, especially the larger ones? For example, Gary Bannerman's book indicated the former Queen of the Islands sailed with a pronounced list because the car deck was a pain in the butt to load; and
3) How have procedures changed over time? What is BC Ferries doing now that they weren't say 20 years ago?
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Post by 1foot2ships on Jul 9, 2021 12:17:18 GMT -8
I don't think it's reasonable to expect everybody to have the same level of expert knowledge. Lot's of people would simply tell you to use the search function, but that sometimes won't work for posts which get dated, so I don't think it's a stupid question at all. Ergo, here's my 'expertise'...
1. Heavier loads are identified at the toll booths and are then separated into special lanes in the holding lot. It is then up to the deckhands under direction from their chiefs to distribute when receiving vehicles off the loading ramp. In general, heavier loads are best kept as close to the centreline as possible.
2. I got nothing here.
3. The first post in this entire thread set the tone in 2011 and nothing has changed in regards to sardine packing on BCF. That practice is seldom used unless the lots are still full counting down to the 2nd last or last sailing of the night. 'Deleted Member' probably said everything best on his/her post Sep 18, 2011 at 20:21.
Perhaps the biggest reason why this practice is not done anymore is b/c there is often so much foot passenger traffic, maximum capacity is often reached before deck space is, thus a lesser need to pack em in. In fact, if they packed'em tight and max capacity is reached, there could even be imbalance between the bow and sternline so in certain situations, 'wasting space' is actually better for buoyancy.
There is one significant change (I've noticed) compared to earlier loading procedures: The chiefs will often halt loading to re-position the apron. Officially, this is to account for the weight taken on. It completely baffles me why this is necessary as it isn't done offloading -the apron isn't even anchored to the ship and in times of rough seas, you can clearly see it sliding back and forth across the deck anyways. However, these re-positioning halts give deckhands a chance to catch-up during busy times.
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